joan
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Post by joan on Jul 24, 2018 4:53:17 GMT
I know I come on this site to kind of get confirmation that the DA I'm seeing is in fact a DA. I want to know that what I experience with him isn't just my insecurity or delusion. I want validation that it isn't a case of "He's just not that into you," but it's his insecure attachment style that's the issue. Somehow that makes me feel better. Knowing that it's not me that's totally flawed helps a little.
He needs a lot of space, he doesn't like to talk on the phone, he doesn't like expectations and most definitely not any kind of demands, doesn't like weakness but is okay with vulnerability once in a while, he likes when I keep a certain amount of distance and keep a balance of being lovey dovey, and other times detached. At first it was an act for me, but now I've been learning to actually be this way. I shifted my perspective. That helped.
Going on this forum oddly is soothing to me. Maybe it's me ruminating and obsessing and it's better that I go do something that distracts me. Doing that helps me detach, but it can be pretty uncomfortable because it's not my habit. My habit is to obsess and ruminate and when I spend too much time reading about issues that pertain to him and I, it actually makes me feel worse after awhile. I'm not saying this forum isn't helpful, but it does help to get off these forums, off the internet and do something that doesn't involve thinking about him. It's hard at first, but I noticed in the last few weeks it helped me detach more. I wasn't looking at my phone as much, wasn't thinking about where he was, what he was doing or in general having all these negative thoughts which in turn caused me more anxiety. I kept busy going to the gym, helping out family and friends with certain things, getting my financial business sorted, home improvements, and basically acting as I would if I were single.
Our "relationship" has never involved too much time together, one night during the week, and the weekend. That may seem like a lot to others on here, but I was married for 15 years, and saw my ex-husband everyday during our marriage so it was disconcerting to go from having that kind of relationship to one like this with so much time apart. I've been trying to find ways to make it work for me though. In the beginning I held onto all the whys. Why does he do this, why does he do that. Now I try to be tough but also compassionate with myself. If I want to continue with him I have to accept him for how he is, crappy as it can feel at times. So I go do something that feels good to me. Go get coffee or dinner with a friend, go shopping, go to the bookstore, workout. Sometimes I think being with a DA is good for me, maybe it'll help me learn to be with myself more as opposed to expecting someone to always being there feeding into my insecurities. Other times I think I just need to find someone who's attachment is secure where I don't have to always fend for myself for attention or support.
When my mind starts to go to it's automatic place of negative thoughts I imagine a big red stop sign just as my therapist has told me to, or I dispel the negative thought with counter arguments. There's no one thing, it's an ongoing, daily, maybe lifelong process of fighting this way of being.
Sorry if this post was all over the place, I just wanted to share some of my thoughts, and hopefully be helpful to others.
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Post by ocarina on Jul 24, 2018 17:23:54 GMT
Hi Joan - having read your post in all honesty i don't think it matters what this mans attachment style is - what matters is that in staying with him you are belittling your needs - needs for love, security and compassion and then, by rationalising that it's as a result of his issues, you're kind of making yourself tolerate your feelings.
The worst feeling ever is to lose your authenticity in order to maintain a relationship, it's a fine line but my gut feeling is that you're being way too hard on yourself - you are doing anything to hold on to this dynamic, believing you can deal with it for the sake of the relationship when deep down it's making you feel s***. A relationship that drives you to therapy is surely not a healthy one even if it has brought you some insight into your own ways of being.
i have been there and whilst fighting free was very painful it was also the most liberating experience ever!
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 28, 2018 7:46:53 GMT
Ocarina,
You're right, his attachment style doesn't really matter. You also hit the nail on the head in saying I'm rationalizing his issues so I can tolerate my feelings. I never looked at it that way. I really need to hold onto that thought. I hope to liberate myself soon. At times I see the light at the end of the tunnel, I'm just not there yet unfortunately.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 3:27:29 GMT
joan, i have read your posts, about how abusive your partner is. you seem to slip into denial about that in this post. here you are thinking it might be "good for you" to be with a "DA" (in quotes because you are focusing on dismissive attachment instead of his cruelty, which you have posted about) . This man has told you he hates your guts and that you are the biggest loser he ever met. Your problem is not his attachment style. Your problem is not even your attachment style, although that certainly could use your attention. Your problem is that he is abusive, and you minimize that and keep yourself busy in order to tolerate his "dismissive" behaviors. Maybe, stop calling him a DA and start calling it like it is. He's an abuser, don't let that fade behind attachment labels. Keep it real. As long as you minimize this and make it about something else, you're kidding yourself and you'll stay stuck. You deserve better- not when you change, not when you learn more, not when the sky turns purple- you deserve better right now as you are, strengths and flaws and questions and quirks and all...you deserve better. FULL STOP. Where's your self-respect? It has to start with you- it won't come from him. And you won't be able to generate self respect as long as you are tolerating his disrespect. We teach people how to treat us. We teach people what they can get away with with us. We teach people what they can get from us, and we teach them how little we will expect in return. You taught him everything he knows about you, he knows he can do this, not do that, get away with this, and if he is just nice a little while you will sweep it all under the rug and lather rinse repeat. You can teach him something very different. You can teach yourself something new and different too. I'm not trying to be hard on you but for goodness sake , stop turning your attention to him and turn it back to you. I'm not shaming you. I'm saying, be a friend to yourself instead of throwing yourself under the bus for some validation from this terrible excuse for a partner. Don't minimize the emotional abuse. Don't tell yourself it's about your insecurity and that you can't do better. You can do better you just don't believe it yet. Teach yourself how to say no, and say no. You have to learn new things to get new things. It's possible! i hope you take this post as it is intended- it is intended to rouse you from a nightmare, because it doesn't need to be this way. You don't have to settle for his shit.
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Post by ocarina on Jul 29, 2018 12:03:51 GMT
I wanted to add that the rationalisation is totally natural - I suspect for many people this is one layer of the healing process - but it's actually a thinly veiled avoidance of really accepting and validating your own experience. Rationalising enables one to avoid actually having to feel, or to take action. It keeps us stuck in our heads and firmly away from the visceral pain that really really accepting feelings evokes. This is a real danger when we become focused on the what's wrong with my partner kind of train of thought. Or we work out strategies to make the relationship work. This essentially allows a bypass of the very act of accepting and experiencing emotion in the body which is (I believe) the one way ticket to freedom and contentment and the path to healing of attachment disorder. As such these thoughts are intensely destructive since they provide what seems to be a harmless diversion from the path but is in reality yet another way of escapism from reality - and pain. The Buddhists suggest putting your head in the mouth of the demon - offering yourself wholeheartedly up to the experience of hurt in the now - and the demon will dissolve. Our minds tell us that by ruminating, rationalising and understanding we are in control - in reality this is just another way to remain stuck. www.tarabrach.com/saying-yes-meeting-edge-softening/I have posted this on another thread, but Tara Brach says this so much more eloquently than me. There are plenty of resources on her website that can support with real compassion and love through the healing process. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 13:14:18 GMT
I wanted to add that the rationalisation is totally natural - I suspect for many people this is one layer of the healing process - but it's actually a thinly veiled avoidance of really accepting and validating your own experience. Rationalising enables one to avoid actually having to feel, or to take action. It keeps us stuck in our heads and firmly away from the visceral pain that really really accepting feelings evokes. This is a real danger when we become focused on the what's wrong with my partner kind of train of thought. Or we work out strategies to make the relationship work. This essentially allows a bypass of the very act of accepting and experiencing emotion in the body which is (I believe) the one way ticket to freedom and contentment and the path to healing of attachment disorder. As such these thoughts are intensely destructive since they provide what seems to be a harmless diversion from the path but is in reality yet another way of escapism from reality - and pain. The Buddhists suggest putting your head in the mouth of the demon - offering yourself wholeheartedly up to the experience of hurt in the now - and the demon will dissolve. Our minds tell us that by ruminating, rationalising and understanding we are in control - in reality this is just another way to remain stuck. www.tarabrach.com/saying-yes-meeting-edge-softening/I have posted this on another thread, but Tara Brach says this so much more eloquently than me. There are plenty of resources on her website that can support with real compassion and love through the healing process. yes! well said! i hadn't heard it put that way before- but that's how i could say i confront difficulty- head in the mouth of the dragon. that comes about when you've realized, all the mental gymnastics and manipulations are what cause you the most suffering of all, because they keep you bound to what what you could absolutely walk away from. We are captive and captor both when we play these mental games instead of facing reality, as it is. we are hostages only to ourselves. ok, we were fashioned into flawed thinking when we were kids but as adults, we have every resource available to transform that. wounds can be healed. illusions can be dispelled. lies can be told the truth and we are the ones who can do all this- but first, you have to know where the wounds are, what the illusions are, and what the lies are. To get started, take a good look at everything that makes you feel horrible about yourself and question... AM I SURE? or is that just what i habitually think or feel? IS IT REAL? or is it happening only between my two ears? DOES IT MAKE SENSE? does it make sense to feel like crap over someone else's horrible behavior, or should they be the ones feeling like crap? Yes, sure, it's all natural. it's all a defense. but it's still flawed thinking and it's got to stop if you really want to be free. this is a classic case of shooting yourself in the foot. our minds are dangerous when used this way. I'm not speaking down to you joan i am speaking form experience, raised by a pathological mother and brought to the brink of death by a pathological partner. I know you understand on some level that you are the one keeping yourself stuck. Processes are processes and time takes time, but we can help you keep it real along the way if it helps. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 29, 2018 13:36:46 GMT
Joan...I just want to add...I have been there.....I don't know your particuliar partner and your particuliar pain...but I have rationalized, justified and stayed with a man who treated me so incredibly poorly...and I knew it.....and I stayed far longer then I should have. I adjusted to him and kept telling myself that I could find a way to not have him hurt me. What finally broke the camel's back was that even after all my changes..nothing really changed in the relationship...but that was after 3 years and 3 distinct cycles of this man deciding he wanted something different, leaving me devastated and then coming back. We are here for you Joan.💕
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joan
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Posts: 100
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Post by joan on Jul 30, 2018 6:02:20 GMT
joan , i have read your posts, about how abusive your partner is. you seem to slip into denial about that in this post. here you are thinking it might be "good for you" to be with a "DA" (in quotes because you are focusing on dismissive attachment instead of his cruelty, which you have posted about) . This man has told you he hates your guts and that you are the biggest loser he ever met. Your problem is not his attachment style. Your problem is not even your attachment style, although that certainly could use your attention. Your problem is that he is abusive, and you minimize that and keep yourself busy in order to tolerate his "dismissive" behaviors. Maybe, stop calling him a DA and start calling it like it is. He's an abuser, don't let that fade behind attachment labels. Keep it real. As long as you minimize this and make it about something else, you're kidding yourself and you'll stay stuck. You deserve better- not when you change, not when you learn more, not when the sky turns purple- you deserve better right now as you are, strengths and flaws and questions and quirks and all...you deserve better. FULL STOP. Where's your self-respect? It has to start with you- it won't come from him. And you won't be able to generate self respect as long as you are tolerating his disrespect. We teach people how to treat us. We teach people what they can get away with with us. We teach people what they can get from us, and we teach them how little we will expect in return. You taught him everything he knows about you, he knows he can do this, not do that, get away with this, and if he is just nice a little while you will sweep it all under the rug and lather rinse repeat. You can teach him something very different. You can teach yourself something new and different too. I'm not trying to be hard on you but for goodness sake , stop turning your attention to him and turn it back to you. I'm not shaming you. I'm saying, be a friend to yourself instead of throwing yourself under the bus for some validation from this terrible excuse for a partner. Don't minimize the emotional abuse. Don't tell yourself it's about your insecurity and that you can't do better. You can do better you just don't believe it yet. Teach yourself how to say no, and say no. You have to learn new things to get new things. It's possible! i hope you take this post as it is intended- it is intended to rouse you from a nightmare, because it doesn't need to be this way. You don't have to settle for his shit. |
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joan
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Posts: 100
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Post by joan on Jul 30, 2018 6:57:55 GMT
Juniper,
I hear what you are saying and in no way do I feel you're being hard on me. I want and need to hear and face these truths. Trust me my therapist has probably been harder on me. I stubbornly hold onto abusive relationships, this isn't my first. I've avoided dealing with my issues because it's so much easier to focus on other things; other people's issues, relationship problems, i.e. I had one therapist tell me I needed to stop and sit long enough, out of a relationship to figure out what I was running from. I had another therapist tell me I intellectualize what I'm going through versus sitting with my feelings. Then I have my current therapist telling me she doesn't believe revisiting my childhood traumas will be helpful and I need to focus on doing things that help me feel better about myself. It's all confusing because I hear contradictory messages.
I do believe what you've said as well as tnr9 and Ocarina are consistent, and solid advice. I've been trying to shift my focus from him to myself more and that's been helpful, but I know it will take more than that. I do believe he has far more going on mentally than an attachment issue, though he's checked off all those boxes. I suppose it has kept me in denial to hold onto the attachment theory so I have yet another excuse to stick in this. Is it empathy for another's pain and being attracted to a tortured soul because I feel that way? I was married for 15 years to who I believe was mostly secure. Me being an AP in hindsight I realize I brought a lot of drama and insecurity into the marriage. When I began to feel safe, and no longer feared abandonment the "passion" or love I felt for him seemed to die. I felt empty, bored and listless. There was no more drama. I thought I wanted security, trust and stability but when I began to really feel I had it I felt depressed. I left that marriage and the next relationship I ended up in was with a narcissist. It was severely uncomfortable, anxiety inducing, and painful yet it felt exciting, passionate and enlivening all at the same time. That's when I began to realize I had some real issues I needed to face. It's been years since then and I've been trying to dig deeper. While I've learned all of the reasons why I became this way, it's been so much harder to change being this way.
Spending your whole life where you're treated and viewed yourself as unworthy, unlovable and incapable takes double the effort to change those views of yourself.
Like you said Juniper, "does it make sense to feel like crap over someone else's horrible behavior, or should they be the ones feeling like crap?" That right there is exactly what I've been telling myself lately and it's been helpful to keep that in perspective. To separate someone's behavior, from how they treat me to who I am. To realize that is his own dysfunction at work, and not a reflection on who I am. I also look back at my mom's treatment towards me and I can see how it was her who had issues that she took out on us. We weren't bad kids, or unlovable, we just had a mother who had a lot of issues and have had to grow up learning how to re-parent ourselves. It's not easy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 13:29:37 GMT
joan, no, it isn't easy. we all have our conditioning to overcome. if you spend all that time trying to stay in the relationship by rationalizing, minimizing, and strategizing, you probably aren't taking much time for the exercises and practices that will enable you to leave. Just keep that in mind, you are choosing your future by what you are doing and investing in today. if you invest in fantasy and denial, you'll feel the same or worse in time instead of more empowered. if you're avoiding your own pain by allowing him to hurt you, so you can focus on that instead of your original problems, nothing will be solved and the hope you have to eventually be free isn't based on actions taken to achieve it. i think that can be a treacherous trap, having hope either to be able to leave the relationship or that it will magically get more tolerable.... neither outcome is supported by reality when you're putting so much energy into denial of how things really are. just food for thought. we all have to work hard to change patterns, me included.
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 30, 2018 18:39:06 GMT
I think what all your therapists have in common is to turn the focus back on yourself and off of your partner. Perhaps a good starting point is look into why you associate drama with passion/love? Because, by your own admission, those types of relationships are usually not the ones that are "mutual" or "sustainable".
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Post by brokenbiscuit on Jul 30, 2018 19:32:54 GMT
Re this point:
"I was married for 15 years to who I believe was mostly secure. Me being an AP in hindsight I realize I brought a lot of drama and insecurity into the marriage. When I began to feel safe, and no longer feared abandonment the "passion" or love I felt for him seemed to die. I felt empty, bored and listless. There was no more drama. I thought I wanted security, trust and stability but when I began to really feel I had it I felt depressed."
Is this really that common with AP/codependent types? Is every relationship they feel like this? Either boring and passionlees (with a secure) or unfuflilling and dangerous (with a toxic/narc/avoidant type)?
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 30, 2018 21:10:21 GMT
Re this point: "I was married for 15 years to who I believe was mostly secure. Me being an AP in hindsight I realize I brought a lot of drama and insecurity into the marriage. When I began to feel safe, and no longer feared abandonment the "passion" or love I felt for him seemed to die. I felt empty, bored and listless. There was no more drama. I thought I wanted security, trust and stability but when I began to really feel I had it I felt depressed." Is this really that common with AP/codependent types? Is every relationship they feel like this? Either boring and passionlees (with a secure) or unfuflilling and dangerous (with a toxic/narc/avoidant type)? I have never dated a secure....however, I did leave a rather stable 3 year relationship for a Narc....worst decision I ever made. I don't remember becoming bored, I do remember feeling excited by the Narc's attention/constant praise/constant phone calls....interestingly enough...once I was really hooked on him..he started to do the distancing/did not have time for me/saw other girls at the same time. I think it is pretty standard to equate passion with love. |
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Post by brokenbiscuit on Jul 31, 2018 4:20:07 GMT
Yes, this is the thing isn't it. When we get activated with all the drama stuff in our love lives, no matter our insecure attachment type, its not actual LOVE we are feeling. It's instead a chemical reaction in our brain going haywire based on the replaying of our old childhood dramas.
The best thing my therapist ever asked me was "what is love to you?".
I thought about it and said it was the feelings I felt between my son and I. The unconditional and completely natural bond we have. There is no drama there. It's beautiful and lovely and safe and comforting to us both. We feel at one with each other.
Then she asked if I felt that same bond in any of my love relationships. I didn't. What I equated as passion and excitement and yearning and longing in my love life isn't actually love. It's just my childhood-parental attachment issues being triggered.
This helped me a lot and helped soften a lot of the intense longings I have towards my ex gf. I never loved her really, and she never really loved me. We just triggered each other, that's all.
Like you say, passion isn't love. It's merely a consequence of the damage in our psyche from wounds from decades ago that's been reactivated all over again.
I now know I have never actually been in love my entire adult life, and that's a little sad for me to know that at my age.
Joan, you are the same. You may not realise it, but this abusive guy you are with, you don't actually love him. You never have and never will.
We all need to separate our attachment triggers with what we perceive to be actual love. Knowing its not actually love is so liberating. But yes, also a little saddening to realise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 11:58:38 GMT
Yes, this is the thing isn't it. When we get activated with all the drama stuff in our love lives, no matter our insecure attachment type, its not actual LOVE we are feeling. It's instead a chemical reaction in our brain going haywire based on the replaying of our old childhood dramas. The best thing my therapist ever asked me was "what is love to you?". I thought about it and said it was the feelings I felt between my son and I. The unconditional and completely natural bond we have. There is no drama there. It's beautiful and lovely and safe and comforting to us both. We feel at one with each other. Then she asked if I felt that same bond in any of my love relationships. I didn't. What I equated as passion and excitement and yearning and longing in my love life isn't actually love. It's just my childhood-parental attachment issues being triggered. This helped me a lot and helped soften a lot of the intense longings I have towards my ex gf. I never loved her really, and she never really loved me. We just triggered each other, that's all. Like you say, passion isn't love. It's merely a consequence of the damage in our psyche from wounds from decades ago that's been reactivated all over again. I now know I have never actually been in love my entire adult life, and that's a little sad for me to know that at my age. Joan, you are the same. You may not realise it, but this abusive guy you are with, you don't actually love him. You never have and never will. We all need to separate our attachment triggers with what we perceive to be actual love. Knowing its not actually love is so liberating. But yes, also a little saddening to realise. yes! separating that out with conscious awareness, continually, through triggers and non-triggers, is the key to being able to untangle all the knots and override the conditioning. has been for me anyway. it's a commitment to awareness that grows as you practice it. if you stay swirling around the drain saying the same things to yourself over and over, you'll go down the drain. we actually have to fight the conditioning with awareness and truth, or we won't change it. it's work. |
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