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Post by blacksnow2 on May 29, 2019 2:26:52 GMT
I'm FA so I get the gist of it. But my relationships never really take off. They're always semi-relationships with other DA's. It's true that two avoidants rarely get together in my experience. So I don't have enough to go off of, not a pattern I can look back on and be like... yeah, that's the AP/DA dance.
Can an AP or ex-AP chime in?
For me, I'm unavailable so right away these DA's are attracted to me. I refuse them from the beginning, then I eventually start to like them and this is before anything of substance is established.. like, we haven't sat down and actually spent time getting to know each other, it's more through observation over a long time and some communication, so imagine the fantasies and assumptions I go off of. Right THEN, when I admit my interest to myself, things tend to go downhill because I start to act differently, more AP. So they disconnect. Come back eventually if I haven't shown too much interest. If I play my cards right and act normal by the time they're back, they stick around longer and can handle more doses of intimacy, little by little. Other times, I drive them off completely. Currently, I'm in a situation where it's almost like we're competing on who's more avoidant. I was winning so far, now he's taking the cake and I slipped back into old patterns for a good week or two. Caught myself and am reversing it, very painfully. Feels almost like death to be triggered anxious.
What is it like in an actual relationship?
Edit: I know I can google it, but I'd like to hear first-hand accounts, and something more detailed than just "I pull, and they push away". How is it that these two people can stay together and for me it never gets started?
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Post by tnr9 on May 31, 2019 16:56:59 GMT
I'm FA so I get the gist of it. But my relationships never really take off. They're always semi-relationships with other DA's. It's true that two avoidants rarely get together in my experience. So I don't have enough to go off of, not a pattern I can look back on and be like... yeah, that's the AP/DA dance. Can an AP or ex-AP chime in? For me, I'm unavailable so right away these DA's are attracted to me. I refuse them from the beginning, then I eventually start to like them and this is before anything of substance is established.. like, we haven't sat down and actually spent time getting to know each other, it's more through observation over a long time and some communication, so imagine the fantasies and assumptions I go off of. Right THEN, when I admit my interest to myself, things tend to go downhill because I start to act differently, more AP. So they disconnect. Come back eventually if I haven't shown too much interest. If I play my cards right and act normal by the time they're back, they stick around longer and can handle more doses of intimacy, little by little. Other times, I drive them off completely. Currently, I'm in a situation where it's almost like we're competing on who's more avoidant. I was winning so far, now he's taking the cake and I slipped back into old patterns for a good week or two. Caught myself and am reversing it, very painfully. Feels almost like death to be triggered anxious. What is it like in an actual relationship? Edit: I know I can google it, but I'd like to hear first-hand accounts, and something more detailed than just "I pull, and they push away". How is it that these two people can stay together and for me it never gets started? I would most align with AP.....what exactly do you want to know about a relationship from the AP perspective?
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 2, 2019 14:37:53 GMT
I would most align with AP.....what exactly do you want to know about a relationship from the AP perspective? I honestly don't get how you and a DA could stay together. If you're not using activating strategies, what are you like normally?
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Post by alexandra on Jun 2, 2019 16:19:52 GMT
blacksnow2 In my experience... I think it's that the DA is passive in starting the relationship but the AP picks up the slack. They like the person, the person likes them, but instead of letting the DA lead enough to be reciprocal, the AP will do most of the initiating because it makes the AP anxious to wait too long to make plans or hear back and the DA is responsive and suggests hanging out once the communication is open even if not initiating. And then the dates are fun, there seems to be a connection, maybe physical chemistry. But you've already established now some intermittent reinforcement anxiety for the AP (relief when they receive positive responses even though it's not a reciprocal level of effort, but bottling up frustration that it's not reciprocal and then trying harder but not communicating their needs until they break), and the DA is not so into relationships but is interested to see where it goes because someone else is putting in all the work to really get things started which is unusual (because only APs or possible anxious-leaning FAs will do this for someone who is so distant early on, and that's not a huge proportion of the human population or really common). Maybe it's even flattering and they're attracted to some of the AP's qualities that the DA lacks in trying to connect with others at first. But this attraction and comfort later leads to a feeling of engulfment once it's past early stages and the DA doesn't want to move much closer emotionally, or wants to on their own slow timetable, and the DA has different needs and communication styles so there's a gap, and then the AP doesn't understand and can't bridge the gap (and can't depersonalize having different needs, blames self), feels unappreciated and not cared about but sticks around working harder and harder to feel their version of loved while probably engaging in protest behaviors. And then it either breaks, or sticks dysfunctionally because it's thoroughly codependent but no one is actually satisfied, depending on the personalities and specific attachment wounds and experiences. But, it's all pushing and pulling and dancing and not knowing how to communicate or negotiate effectively due to independent insecurities, distrust of self or others, maybe not even actually knowing what one wants oneself because it's unclear until the wounds have been healed. Does any of that make sense? A lot of my AP/DA stuff came with intense physical attraction that made things overwhelming and last much longer than it should have, in spite of not being on the same page causing fights and misunderstandings and mutual triggering. And then me being AP, I'd cycle back when things calmed down, and they'd accept cycling because nothing seemed resolved and we were still seeing each other, at least until things broke down and broke up for good. DAs would not initiate after a fight, though, so if I would have been able to sit with my anxiety and not reach out we'd probably have never spoken again. Which, of course, was a triggering thought for me. Even now, years later, whether we got back to good terms or things blew up horribly and that was that, the DAs I'd dated never stayed in touch, while the other attachment types did. One DA, we did the work to repair and get on good terms, and we stayed friendly for quite a while and would bump into each other regularly and make platonic plans every time that happened and then hang out. But once I logistically moved out of his circle and we didn't run into each in person anymore, that was that even though there were no hard feelings. I texted him once after 6 months out of touch for a specific reason, again nothing romantic, and he answered but didn't seem interested in much of a conversation (he isn't big on texting to chat but also didn't suggest getting together), so that was that.
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laney
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Post by laney on Jun 4, 2019 12:42:49 GMT
I'm FA so I get the gist of it. But my relationships never really take off. They're always semi-relationships with other DA's. It's true that two avoidants rarely get together in my experience. So I don't have enough to go off of, not a pattern I can look back on and be like... yeah, that's the AP/DA dance. Can an AP or ex-AP chime in? For me, I'm unavailable so right away these DA's are attracted to me. I refuse them from the beginning, then I eventually start to like them and this is before anything of substance is established.. like, we haven't sat down and actually spent time getting to know each other, it's more through observation over a long time and some communication, so imagine the fantasies and assumptions I go off of. Right THEN, when I admit my interest to myself, things tend to go downhill because I start to act differently, more AP. So they disconnect. Come back eventually if I haven't shown too much interest. If I play my cards right and act normal by the time they're back, they stick around longer and can handle more doses of intimacy, little by little. Other times, I drive them off completely. Currently, I'm in a situation where it's almost like we're competing on who's more avoidant. I was winning so far, now he's taking the cake and I slipped back into old patterns for a good week or two. Caught myself and am reversing it, very painfully. Feels almost like death to be triggered anxious.That is very interesting. I am a FA too and too me it almost feels like death as well. I wonder how the anxious people can bear it? I retreat because I cannot endure the anxious feelings of being triggered, maybe being rejected, maybe getting hurt. I think that a lot has to do with childhood experiences. The anxious person learned at one point that perseverance, even anger lead to the desired outcome and at one point the parent or partner gave in. My experience as a FA has been that perseverance or anger only made things worse and resulted in bad things happening. In order for me to get what I wanted, I had to be nice, hide my negative feelings and even pretend to not care. Sometimes APs seem brave to me and more hopeful. I am thinking, don't they realize that they will push everyone away with that kind of behavior? But then they are in relationships in the end and I am not.
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mamut
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Post by mamut on Jun 4, 2019 13:04:04 GMT
I am thinking, don't they realize that they will push everyone away with that kind of behavior? But then they are in relationships in the end and I am not. AP here, or at least mostly AP. I do think that the AP behavior is more social acceptable. I don't get it, but I think it is. Society is more acceptable to drama=love. Stupid.
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laney
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Post by laney on Jun 5, 2019 12:26:25 GMT
I am thinking, don't they realize that they will push everyone away with that kind of behavior? But then they are in relationships in the end and I am not. AP here, or at least mostly AP. I do think that the AP behavior is more social acceptable. I don't get it, but I think it is. Society is more acceptable to drama=love. Stupid. Really, do you think so? Aren't we bombarded by messages to pretend to not care, by advice to let the other person chase, to never tell the other person we love them first because that would be counterproductive? I always thought that if everyone heeded advice like that, relationships would never happen.
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mamut
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Post by mamut on Jun 5, 2019 12:34:24 GMT
laney this is interesting. If I remember correctly, you're an FA? I'm an AP, maybe we just see what collides with our own attachment issues?
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laney
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Post by laney on Jun 5, 2019 13:43:14 GMT
laney this is interesting. If I remember correctly, you're an FA? I'm an AP, maybe we just see what collides with our own attachment issues? yes, I am a FA. Maybe... I also think, it's maybe because I am a girl. I learned from movies, romance novels, dating advice that men are supposed to chase and if they don't they don't love you. In real life though, with lots of relationships I observe, the women chased the guy down.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 14:13:26 GMT
laney this is interesting. If I remember correctly, you're an FA? I'm an AP, maybe we just see what collides with our own attachment issues? yes, I am a FA. Maybe... I also think, it's maybe because I am a girl. I learned from movies, romance novels, dating advice that men are supposed to chase and if they don't they don't love you. In real life though, with lots of relationships I observe, the women chased the guy down. Men who have chased me down became my worst nightmare. Anyway, dating advice that is published seems to be geared toward feeding the masses what they will eat and making money by appealing to fantasy and insecurity. Surely, balance without a bunch of games would be best? It seems. Either way, with unaddressed attachment issues it will be a rocky ride and it's fine to be countercultural in order to be true to yourself and do what's healthy for you in spite of what the advice and messaging is from "out there".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 20:42:10 GMT
As an AP - Speaking from my experience. I know dating an FA and DA is the most unhealthy and painful relationship an AP can have. The triggers and stress create the AP's anxiety into high overdrive.
Life is short. Why settle for less?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 23:23:54 GMT
As an AP - Speaking from my experience. I know dating an FA and DA is the most unhealthy and painful relationship an AP can have. The triggers and stress create the AP's anxiety into high overdrive. Life is short. Why settle for less? I think this dynamic is really hard on both partners, from my experience. Just totally different creatures that need totally different things, and have very different values. It triggers both parties into habitual defenses.
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Post by suburbanwizard on Jun 7, 2019 0:20:41 GMT
I am thinking, don't they realize that they will push everyone away with that kind of behavior? But then they are in relationships in the end and I am not. AP here, or at least mostly AP. I do think that the AP behavior is more social acceptable. I don't get it, but I think it is. Society is more acceptable to drama=love. Stupid. I don't know what I am, but i have taken on an AP dynamic in a recent relationship with an FA, and death isn't strong enough of a description. I couldn't sleep, eat, work, do anything. It was crazy. Is this how AP people are much of the time?
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mamut
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Post by mamut on Jun 7, 2019 0:40:02 GMT
I don't know what I am, but i have taken on an AP dynamic in a recent relationship with an FA, and death isn't strong enough of a description. I couldn't sleep, eat, work, do anything. It was crazy. Is this how AP people are much of the time? My first instinct was to say yes, it is. And my second. So, yes, it is how we feel more or less. Of course everyone is different, so it might not be that bad for everyone, but still. For me it's like an obsession. Once I fall for someone, I can't stop thinking about them and I'm probably not talking about the normal obsession everyone feels. The worst is the microanalysing. I mean it's ok to day dream, but actually analysing your partners ever move, action and even facial expressions is hell. It also depends on the partner and how much they trigger you, but you already figured that out the hard way. I honestly don't want to get into another relationship any time soon, without having a good part of my issues resolved, or at least acknowledged.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 21:26:14 GMT
blacksnow2 In my experience... I think it's that the DA is passive in starting the relationship but the AP picks up the slack. They like the person, the person likes them, but instead of letting the DA lead enough to be reciprocal, the AP will do most of the initiating because it makes the AP anxious to wait too long to make plans or hear back and the DA is responsive and suggests hanging out once the communication is open even if not initiating. And then the dates are fun, there seems to be a connection, maybe physical chemistry. But you've already established now some intermittent reinforcement anxiety for the AP (relief when they receive positive responses even though it's not a reciprocal level of effort, but bottling up frustration that it's not reciprocal and then trying harder but not communicating their needs until they break), and the DA is not so into relationships but is interested to see where it goes because someone else is putting in all the work to really get things started which is unusual (because only APs or possible anxious-leaning FAs will do this for someone who is so distant early on, and that's not a huge proportion of the human population or really common). Maybe it's even flattering and they're attracted to some of the AP's qualities that the DA lacks in trying to connect with others at first. But this attraction and comfort later leads to a feeling of engulfment once it's past early stages and the DA doesn't want to move much closer emotionally, or wants to on their own slow timetable, and the DA has different needs and communication styles so there's a gap, and then the AP doesn't understand and can't bridge the gap (and can't depersonalize having different needs, blames self), feels unappreciated and not cared about but sticks around working harder and harder to feel their version of loved while probably engaging in protest behaviors. And then it either breaks, or sticks dysfunctionally because it's thoroughly codependent but no one is actually satisfied, depending on the personalities and specific attachment wounds and experiences. But, it's all pushing and pulling and dancing and not knowing how to communicate or negotiate effectively due to independent insecurities, distrust of self or others, maybe not even actually knowing what one wants oneself because it's unclear until the wounds have been healed. Does any of that make sense? A lot of my AP/DA stuff came with intense physical attraction that made things overwhelming and last much longer than it should have, in spite of not being on the same page causing fights and misunderstandings and mutual triggering. And then me being AP, I'd cycle back when things calmed down, and they'd accept cycling because nothing seemed resolved and we were still seeing each other, at least until things broke down and broke up for good. DAs would not initiate after a fight, though, so if I would have been able to sit with my anxiety and not reach out we'd probably have never spoken again. Which, of course, was a triggering thought for me. Even now, years later, whether we got back to good terms or things blew up horribly and that was that, the DAs I'd dated never stayed in touch, while the other attachment types did. One DA, we did the work to repair and get on good terms, and we stayed friendly for quite a while and would bump into each other regularly and make platonic plans every time that happened and then hang out. But once I logistically moved out of his circle and we didn't run into each in person anymore, that was that even though there were no hard feelings. I texted him once after 6 months out of touch for a specific reason, again nothing romantic, and he answered but didn't seem interested in much of a conversation (he isn't big on texting to chat but also didn't suggest getting together), so that was that. Oh my god! Like wow! alexandra - thank you! That is exactly as described and I think you explained it really well.
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