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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 4:23:56 GMT
The truth of compatibility is somewhere in between the perspective you have of her expectation vs. your expectation. I don't think it's quite accurate to assume that she doesn't think effort is necessary. And, you may want to put in more effort than is reasonable (not the best word but it will do) to try to correct what may be fundamental incompatibility. It's true, so true that what constitutes a rewarding and healthy relationship to a DA is different from what constitutes a rewarding and healthy relationship to an AP. I happen to have a high sex drive, I'm a DA woman, those things go together for me. But also, the kind of companionship and shared time that you're describing as your GF's favorite way to bond is in fact, the preferred mode of interaction for a lot of DA'seven when they get healthier, more secure. Its hard to describe, but it's tremendously comforting for me to share an activity that doesn't involve romance, with a partner. It's deeply warm and satisfying to me: and feels more intimate in some ways than the couple stuff you describe. It feels unconditional, wholesome, friendly. This is what I have missed my entire life, being dismissively attached. Solitude (when at its best ) and isolation (at its worst) has formed a soul deep loneliness that true companionship heals. On the other hand, deep prolonged intimacy is not my natural connection state, and triggers vulnerability that is so profound that it does trigger my attachment system into deactivation. It's not sustainable for me, nor desirable. I have to have good balance in order to be able to progress, and I am aware. It sounds like your GF is without awareness at all of all this. Furthermore, you may be an unhealed and overly emotionally dependent AP partner. (hypersensitive as you are to cues which turns into negative statements about her: "You're Cold." No woman wants to be called cold as there is a connotation of FRIGID. Why not ask if there is something bothering her, if she is stressed, etc? She probably does feel constantly judged and criticized and attacked) Your communication and relating habits may feel overwhelmingly negative and as if she is damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't. If she responds positively, will it be disappointing to you if it doesn't turn into a marathon of sex and massage? If she doesn't respond, is she cold? What about what is going on with her? She may not feel comfortable saying and she may not even know. Who knows. But her confidant thinks she is cold. Anyway, AP and DA are very different animals who thrive in different environments. Some couples can make it, some can't, depends on the individuals. I myself can't imagine finding a middle ground with AP but that's just me. Sorry you're struggling, but in truth it's a very common struggle between these two types. Thanks @sherry I think this is really insightful and something that should be highlighted here. I think a good balance in any relationship is having both deep prolonged intimacy and having wholesome activities that doesn't involve romance. It's also important to just build a friendship that recognizes each other as individuals for themselves, in addition to romance building which is seeing each other as partners. APs seem to only want the latter, which probably makes their partner feel "used" only as a partner to fulfill a particular role, rather than appreciated for just being themselves without having to also be a partner. I certainly recognise this in some of my other relationships. I see what you're saying, but I think we have very different views of romance, and intimacy. For me, and for many DA I know, shared activities are quite romantic, and intimate. I feel very much a part of a partnership sharing mundane things. I don't view it as a way to assert independence or individuality at all. I am someone who has done most trivial things and important things solo and been habituated and content with that. It is a way of life. It is very meaningful for me to have found a partner to share that with. If I weren't in a partnership then I would be doing it alone. Independent is AWAY from a partner, in my view. For me , shared activities are not less intimate than sex. Perhaps they are even more intimate and meaningful for me. This is because at this time, we are just being together, there is no need or passion or lust, it's just pure and simple camaraderie and peace that heals my soul. That is not to say that sexual intimacy isn't that also- but for most of us DA, sex is easier to separate from love or attachment. It can be a substitute, especially if we are having to participate to fill an emotional need for someone else that we naturally meet (or need to have met) in other ways. So, for me sexual intimacy and romance as a couple is not more emotionally intimate, romantic, or meaningful than shared activities. I weigh them differently. They meet emotional needs differently. Going grocery shopping together can be very meaningful to me. It can represent something very significant to me. Again, a DA may be most likely to have a love language that is practical. My point is, I need a balance because sex and "romance" doesn't indicate a deep peaceful bond to me, and enduring bond, as much as simple friendship does. People don't have to go about a relationship one way or the other- the point is, is the way you want and need to go about it COMPATIBLE with the way your partner needs and wants to. "Romance" is insignificant to me. I know when my partner and I are in deep intimacy- sometimes that's during sex, sometimes it's working out, sometimes it's just talking about our personal problems together. Sometimes it's just sitting quietly without much exchange. Sometimes it's when we are in conflict and learn more about how the other thinks and feels. Intimacy- either you have it or you don't I guess, what's intimate to one might not be intimate to the other. And that's ok. We come from different places on that. I don't believe it should be a constant battle. That's what it is between AP/DA. We all know this. Some can make it work and some can't- it depends on a lot of factors. Everyone is different.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 5:40:23 GMT
i think they are different forms and levels of intimacy, and experiencing all of them is more enriching to a relationship than simply a deep romantic bond and interaction that APs seem to crave more off. My point is that recognising that these are different forms of intimacy and interactions, and all of them are important in their own way to different people, would serve every one of us to appreciate what we already have from alternative perspectives.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 12:17:40 GMT
faithopelove there is a big difference between a DA who is looking for casual sex in a distant relationship and one who is in a relationship of sharing and spending non sexual time together. His situation and yours are both AP/DA but very different situations
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 12:38:04 GMT
toorational , I've got a question. You both had your kids, you were at the home of a friend as dinner guests, you're at the table presumably going visiting with the hosts. Why did you decide you need attention and affection right then, and pursue it with a hand under the table? Why right then? I'm wondering if you can not stand to not be the center of her attention. I wonder if you're so insecure you are only sensitive to your mood and needs and are blind to hers. You mention that you've been feeling down- but are you that dependent on her that you need to get her reassurance when she is already in parent and dinner guest mode? It seems like a somewhat sexual advance, especially with how you followed up about no sex that evening. A person has got to have enough space around them where they are not constantly meeting someone else's need. She has a right to relax with friends without tending to you. She has a right to have her own space without you needing something from her. Why can't you learn to step back and take care of some of your own anxiety, and not be the scorekeeper with how many ILY and reciprocated (In my mind excessive) vids? She will certainly tire of this and you will certainly become more anxious. Unfortunately, it's up to you to gain more emotional independence to self soothe your anxiety and moods.
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Post by toorational on Jul 16, 2019 13:19:11 GMT
sherry, good question, thanks. The reason is that these 3-4 hours that night were the only time we got to spend together in a span of about 6 days. Physical touch is my 2nd love language (same for her) and it's quite important to me. It was a way to be affectionate. Her kids weren't there, only mine. Was it a sexual advance? Perhaps, possibly. I like to sprinkle little gestures like that throughout the day. She particularly enjoys when I caress her bum. I don't see why that would be a problem (didn't do that in front of the kids).
If I understand correctly, you're not suggesting that caressing her was inappropriate, but rather my expectation of her reciprocating is. You have a point. I need to learn how to freely express my love but without any expectations. I'm already holding back my advances for sex to avoid putting pressure on her. I don't want to have to repress my need to offer affection in the form of physical touch. At some point we might as well become platonic best friends, no?
Thanks for more info about the significance for you about doing seemingly mundane things with your partner. I can see that my GF is the same and to some extent, I am as well. Let's say there are two chores that need to be done. Doing dishes and cleaning out the garage. We could each do one chore and reunite after. We much prefer to do the dishes together and then go and clean out the garage together. It's bonding in a way. She also loves when I help her do small maintenance stuff around the house and show her some tricks along the way. She's very independent and intelligent and could do all these things alone but she welcomes my help. Same with bike maintenance. I've been teaching her how to do it and we both enjoy this activity together tremendously. So I'm not all about romance all the time. It's just that it's a part that I need to feel that we're in a romantic relationship and not just platonic best friends.
A quick update while we're at it. We spoke last night on the phone and fortunately damage is minimal. She was very understanding of my slight depression because of lack of activity (she can relate because she's much worse when she's injured and can't work out) and me acting out a bit. I had proposed that we have picnic together for lunch some time this week to get a bit more time together and so we're probably going to meet for lunch today if it doesn't rain. That's the first time we'll eat out together for lunch during work in our 2½ years together.
And for the record, my DA girlfriend is absolutely not into casual sex. She actually never had casual sex even though she could have very easily as she's smoking hot.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 13:45:54 GMT
No, you misunderstand. I actually do think it's pushing it for you to make a sexual advance under the dinner table at a friends house. That moment was not about you. And yes I think it's clear she didn't want to reciprocate because that moment wasn't about you.
If you had a limited time you still could have waited for a more appropriate time. Be sexual when you're alone. Be affectionate in a non sexual way of you actually have something to give instead of demanding (internally- there is a consequence for her if she doesn't do what you expect or want. She will be criticized ) something from her all the time. It's too much for any avoidant but maybe someone who isn't avoidant could handle your needs.
What I can see, from my perspective only- it's high pressure walking on eggshells to meet your demands. I would not have been able to hang in there as long as she has but everyone is different.
All I can suggest is for you to work on your emotional neediness. It seems like you two are ill matched but that for the two of you to decide ultimately.
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Post by faithopelove on Jul 16, 2019 17:44:23 GMT
It's also important to just build a friendship that recognizes each other as individuals for themselves, in addition to romance building which is seeing each other as partners. APs seem to only want the latter, which probably makes their partner feel "used" only as a partner to fulfill a particular role, rather than appreciated for just being themselves without having to also be a partner. I certainly recognise this in some of my other relationships. Just to clarify, I also love to do platonic fun activities together. I share lots of the same interests with my partner and I see it as an essential component of a relationship. But I need romance too. I realize as we grow older that foundation of friendship is much more important. Frienship is more important than romance? How so? How can you avoid becoming best friends and roommates, but not lovers, in the long run if you focus on platonic friendship activities? Curious. My ex usually didn't want any of those things unless it suited him and then it'll come full force without warning, which is often traumatic for me because I suddenly have to be a sexual and affectionate being in order not to reject him. I have the same experience. Sometimes she will have these wild impulses and be super horny and we have sex on the spot. Not that I'm complaining, it feels awesome in the moment but they are very rare. Probably like once every 6 months or so. I would say that you should have a think about what your needs are and what you want in an ideal relationship. Is it necessary to have deep prolonged intimacy all the time? If not, how much of the time, and is there a middle ground? i think we had this conversation somewhere else, but it was about needs and stability and consistency, and in what elements of the relationship needs consistency for it to work for both parties. Yes, we did discuss consistency in this same thread. Do I want deep prolonged intimacy all the time? No, in fact it never happens and I'm kinda okay with it. I just wish that I didn't have to hold back my passion for her, in fear of "putting pressure" on her with my sexual desire. I didn't have to hold back during the honeymoon phase but now I do. I terms of consistency, I discussed it before but I wish that ILY would be a daily occurrence at least. It's puzzling to me that my GF says ILS whenever she hangs up on the phone with her children, sisters or parents but not with me. Sure, we do talk more often but sometimes these ILY are few and far between. Sex I'd say something like 3-4 times a week but realistically less since we see each other only about 50% of days. Genuine passionate french kiss once a day. Ok so these are my expectations. Of course I'm willing to compromise. Most important for me is consistency. toorational - The foundation of friendship is more important bc when you’re old and gray and your legs don’t work anymore and you have zero sex drive or diseases or illnesses that prevent you from having sex w your partner, you still need to be able to sit along side of them and enjoy their company and their companionship. You still need to want to wake up next to them each morning and see their face. You need to be able to tolerate taking care of their aging bodies that may become reliant upon you for many things beside sex. This is a more grown up and mature love when wild sex is off the table. This is a lasting love.
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Post by faithopelove on Jul 16, 2019 17:51:58 GMT
No, you misunderstand. I actually do think it's pushing it for you to make a sexual advance under the dinner table at a friends house. That moment was not about you. And yes I think it's clear she didn't want to reciprocate because that moment wasn't about you. If you had a limited time you still could have waited for a more appropriate time. Be sexual when you're alone. Be affectionate in a non sexual way of you actually have something to give instead of demanding (internally- there is a consequence for her if she doesn't do what you expect or want. She will be criticized ) something from her all the time. It's too much for any avoidant but maybe someone who isn't avoidant could handle your needs. What I can see, from my perspective only- it's high pressure walking on eggshells to meet your demands. I would not have been able to hang in there as long as she has but everyone is different. All I can suggest is for you to work on your emotional neediness. It seems like you two are ill matched but that for the two of you to decide ultimately. toorational - I’m AP and I agree with Sherry. You’re being far too focused on the physical, almost like an adolescent boy would be, and your advances are sometimes at inappropriate times when the moment isn’t about you. You don’t seem to get that. You seem to have a laser focus here and are pre-occupied on this aspect and some others. This pre-occupation will at best annoy her, at worst push her away. I’m AP so I get the ruminating but you are severely hurting yourself and not being the kind of partner who is setting the appropriate mood for sex and affection. Your actions would trigger my avoidant side.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 17:59:21 GMT
Just to clarify, I also love to do platonic fun activities together. I share lots of the same interests with my partner and I see it as an essential component of a relationship. But I need romance too. Frienship is more important than romance? How so? How can you avoid becoming best friends and roommates, but not lovers, in the long run if you focus on platonic friendship activities? Curious. I have the same experience. Sometimes she will have these wild impulses and be super horny and we have sex on the spot. Not that I'm complaining, it feels awesome in the moment but they are very rare. Probably like once every 6 months or so. Yes, we did discuss consistency in this same thread. Do I want deep prolonged intimacy all the time? No, in fact it never happens and I'm kinda okay with it. I just wish that I didn't have to hold back my passion for her, in fear of "putting pressure" on her with my sexual desire. I didn't have to hold back during the honeymoon phase but now I do. I terms of consistency, I discussed it before but I wish that ILY would be a daily occurrence at least. It's puzzling to me that my GF says ILS whenever she hangs up on the phone with her children, sisters or parents but not with me. Sure, we do talk more often but sometimes these ILY are few and far between. Sex I'd say something like 3-4 times a week but realistically less since we see each other only about 50% of days. Genuine passionate french kiss once a day. Ok so these are my expectations. Of course I'm willing to compromise. Most important for me is consistency. toorational - The foundation of friendship is more important bc when you’re old and gray and your legs don’t work anymore and you have zero sex drive or diseases or illnesses that prevent you from having sex w your partner, you still need to be able to sit along side of them and enjoy their company and their companionship. You still need to want to wake up next to them each morning and see their face. You need to be able to tolerate taking care of their aging bodies that may become reliant upon you for many things beside sex. This is a more grown up and mature love when wild sex is off the table. This is a lasting love. Yes!!! Yes! Yes! Yes!! My partner and I actually just had this conversation in depth. It was very intimate to express all this and our time together after this was in fact so intimate that I deactivated and came here to work through it. I didn't distance, I didn't do anything to shake the intimacy I came here instead. toorational you're super focused on her taking care of your anxiety. You could be here working o. that but you come here to just talk about how she let you down after the fact, and what you coulda shoulda woulda done. Why not get proactive and address your own issues? That's what it takes. That's mature love too.
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Post by faithopelove on Jul 16, 2019 18:03:01 GMT
faithopelove there is a big difference between a DA who is looking for casual sex in a distant relationship and one who is in a relationship of sharing and spending non sexual time together. His situation and yours are both AP/DA but very different situations @sherry - Well, yes and no. We were in a committed and serious relationship where we discussed marriage. Then he broke up w me and took 5 steps back to keep things light now and to assuage his fears. His feelings were and still are genuine. The situations are different w different expectations but as my ex stated, and I believe, that our relationship isn’t just physical to him and we’re exclusive.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 18:04:36 GMT
No, you misunderstand. I actually do think it's pushing it for you to make a sexual advance under the dinner table at a friends house. That moment was not about you. And yes I think it's clear she didn't want to reciprocate because that moment wasn't about you. If you had a limited time you still could have waited for a more appropriate time. Be sexual when you're alone. Be affectionate in a non sexual way of you actually have something to give instead of demanding (internally- there is a consequence for her if she doesn't do what you expect or want. She will be criticized ) something from her all the time. It's too much for any avoidant but maybe someone who isn't avoidant could handle your needs. What I can see, from my perspective only- it's high pressure walking on eggshells to meet your demands. I would not have been able to hang in there as long as she has but everyone is different. All I can suggest is for you to work on your emotional neediness. It seems like you two are ill matched but that for the two of you to decide ultimately. toorational - I’m AP and I agree with Sherry. You’re being far too focused on the physical, almost like an adolescent boy would be, and your advances are sometimes at inappropriate times when the moment isn’t about you. You don’t seem to get that. You seem to have a laser focus here and are pre-occupied on this aspect and some others. This pre-occupation will at best annoy her, at worst push her away. I’m AP so I get the ruminating but you are severely hurting yourself and not being the kind of partner who is setting the appropriate mood for sex and affection. Your actions would trigger my avoidant side. Well said. I would have ended this long ago as I find it offensive and disrespectful and self centered. And yes, adolescent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 18:05:44 GMT
faithopelove there is a big difference between a DA who is looking for casual sex in a distant relationship and one who is in a relationship of sharing and spending non sexual time together. His situation and yours are both AP/DA but very different situations @sherry - Well, yes and no. We were in a committed and serious relationship where we discussed marriage. Then he broke up w me and took 5 steps back to keep things light now and to assuage his fears. His feelings were and still are genuine. The situations are different w different expectations but as my ex stated, and I believe, that our relationship isn’t just physical to him. Sorry , I've misunderstood. But ouch!
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Post by faithopelove on Jul 16, 2019 18:08:16 GMT
@sherry - Well, yes and no. We were in a committed and serious relationship where we discussed marriage. Then he broke up w me and took 5 steps back to keep things light now and to assuage his fears. His feelings were and still are genuine. The situations are different w different expectations but as my ex stated, and I believe, that our relationship isn’t just physical to him. Sorry , I've misunderstood. But ouch! @sherry - It’s a tough situation w his pulling back, but I’m working through my AP in the process so either way, however this ultimately ends, I’ll be good bc I’ll still have me.
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Post by toorational on Jul 16, 2019 18:31:59 GMT
Adolescent behavior, wow I didn't see that one coming. But you both seem to agree so I must be humble and accept your take. I must be honest and I don't quite get it. I'm not dismissing your opinion by any means, I'm just trying to understand. So when is flirtatious behavior ok then? Only when in situations when we're both alone I guess? I don't want to limit myself to physical affection only before sex. I'd like to be able to act freely without putting pressure on my partner for sex. I researched this topic a bit and this article is interesting: dailyplateofcrazy.com/2017/04/06/when-affection-is-more-important-than-sex/As far as working on my anxiety, yes I agree that I need to work harder on that. I've read books and listened to lots of podcasts and it helped a lot. However the next step is probably some kind of therapy. Not easy to find a good psychologist well versed in attachment theory but I'll keep looking. Thanks again for all your help and for not pulling any punches
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 18:49:15 GMT
In my opinion, it's pointless to discuss this u til your doing something to deal with yourself and your perspectives and neediness. It's a free world and you can do whatever you need to do but I'm here more for the good stuff. Self improvement. I get the most out of interactions with like minded folk. Best of luck!
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