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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 16:15:18 GMT
And by the way he shared that his attachment style is ambivalent. he is having a lot of fun working with me! I love it.
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Post by alexandra on Aug 9, 2019 18:03:23 GMT
lovebunny, if you are clearly and directly sharing your needs and your new person can't stop herself and respect your stated boundaries, she may not be in a place to have the relationship that you want. Last year, I went on a few dates with someone who turned out to be pretty severely AP (rare for me as I was AP so they don't usually attract, but I was pretty close to secure). I told him exactly my thoughts, needs, expectations pretty clearly and he'd twist everything to justify what he wanted to hear and just do what he wanted to do, claiming it was for me. I felt sad that at our age, he acted like I had when I was a very immature AP as a late teenager. We barely knew each other yet and it was an early look at steamrolling me and not being able to take feedback or resolve conflict. I ran away after just a few dates (but very respectfully and clearly, only eventually cutting off contact after he continued violating the boundaries we'd discussed in person and after saying why I was going to stop responding first), and he kept texting me for a few months. This guy was also in therapy but had zero understanding of himself or what was wrong at that point in his process. You shouldn't have to keep asking repeatedly, looking for the "right" way. It didn't seem you felt you'd sufficiently communicated your needs yet at the beginning of this thread, but if you do with very little reception and change from her, do take it as a red flag that this won't change in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 19:05:25 GMT
lovebunny , if you are clearly and directly sharing your needs and your new person can't stop herself and respect your stated boundaries, she may not be in a place to have the relationship that you want. Last year, I went on a few dates with someone who turned out to be pretty severely AP (rare for me as I was AP so they don't usually attract, but I was pretty close to secure). I told him exactly my thoughts, needs, expectations pretty clearly and he'd twist everything to justify what he wanted to hear and just do what he wanted to do, claiming it was for me. I felt sad that at our age, he acted like I had when I was a very immature AP as a late teenager. We barely knew each other yet and it was an early look at steamrolling me and not being able to take feedback or resolve conflict. I ran away after just a few dates (but very respectfully and clearly, only eventually cutting off contact after he continued violating the boundaries we'd discussed in person and after saying why I was going to stop responding first), and he kept texting me for a few months. This guy was also in therapy but had zero understanding of himself or what was wrong at that point in his process. You shouldn't have to keep asking repeatedly, looking for the "right" way. It didn't seem you felt you'd sufficiently communicated your needs yet at the beginning of this thread, but if you do with very little reception and change from her, do take it as a red flag that this won't change in the future. Totally agree. For me, knowing my limits with texting also gives me a clear knowledge of what is ok for me and what is not, and I feel very confident about setting a boundary around it now. There are small things that indicate incompatibility- but an inability to respect boundaries as they are stated is a sign that relationship skills are lacking and I also don't think that having to repeat and reword and keep engaging with the issue is a good sign. I hate feeling like I have to struggle upstream against someone's issues. There is working together, cooperation and mutual capacity to grow a healthy relationship ... and then there is having to parent someone from the ground up because they are not self aware or working on their own insecurity.
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Post by lovebunny on Aug 9, 2019 20:10:26 GMT
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone, very helpful stuff. I think I have a game plan that involves staying calm, being very honest (luckily she says she loves that I have no filter) and stating things very clearly. If that doesn't work, and I continue to feel bulldozed, I will cut my losses.
I feel a lot of empathy for this woman, goodness knows I've been where she is, wanting someone so bad I blow up their phone, wishing I could be with them all the time. As I said, I usually lean towards AP, though at times I go FA. It's not fun being on either end of the equation. I'm trying to be consistent, do not overpromise, do not blow hot and cold.
Currently, I just want to stay open and observant and see if my feelings grow or not. She warned me when we first started talking that she's "intense," and "some people aren't comfortable with the amount of attention I give." She doesn't seem to get mad at me when I push back. She's been better since I posted this, we'll see if it lasts.
I feel like I'm at a moment in my life where I'd rather deal with someone being too much than too little. I feel better equipped to handle someone coming on too strong than someone who blows hot and cold or who never goes both feet in, like my last few relationships. I'd be amazed to find a secure, single middle-aged lesbian living on or near my island, so I'm willing to work with someone less secure, within reason--if they're willing to work with me.
I can see how this whole thing might burn itself out quick: lots of oxytoxin, semi-long distance and about to get longer (she's going out of state for work for 3 to 6 months.) I'm just trying to take things one day at a time. We'll see each other this weekend, then see how I feel. Thanks!
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Post by 8675309 on Aug 10, 2019 7:32:57 GMT
Attachment aside... What I see here is you're just not a good fit.
You had to come start a thread and you just even started 'dating'. You should not have to, this is not a match for you, its all this 'drama' already. This is not how secure relations work.
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Post by happyidiot on Aug 10, 2019 22:38:28 GMT
Attachment aside... What I see here is you're just not a good fit. You had to come start a thread and you just even started 'dating'. You should not have to, this is not a match for you, its all this 'drama' already. This is not how secure relations work. I disagree, I think it’s insecure to expect that with the right person everything would be easy and that you wouldn’t ask anyone for advice on how to best communicate your needs.
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Post by 8675309 on Aug 11, 2019 0:25:05 GMT
Attachment aside... What I see here is you're just not a good fit. You had to come start a thread and you just even started 'dating'. You should not have to, this is not a match for you, its all this 'drama' already. This is not how secure relations work. I disagree, I think it’s insecure to expect that with the right person everything would be easy and that you wouldn’t ask anyone for advice on how to best communicate your needs. We can agree to disagree as all this stuff going on is not what I see between Secures nor what Ive experienced having relationships with Secures.
They've already communicated needs and its has not stopped. All this is the Very beginning stages is not a good sign, its already an uphill battle out of the gate. This is not a secure relation, this new person is crossing boundaries already.
In general it is easy in secure relations even if you dont work out because needs are respected, understood and boundaries are not crossed. Certainly not right out of the gate.
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Post by lovebunny on Aug 13, 2019 13:36:52 GMT
So far, I'm glad I didn't cut things off. We had a wonderful visit this weekend. She seemed much more relaxed, I think a lot of her anxiety had to do with stagnancy in her work/living situation, which she has now changed. I think also she sees now I'm not the type to run away over small things, I actually talk things out first. Because she was calm and confident, I was able to feel more open and connected. She very much regrets having pushed my boundaries due to her own insecurities, she apologized sincerely. I can see she's working on herself. We'll see how it goes from here.
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Post by lovebunny on Aug 30, 2019 20:15:38 GMT
Here's an update for anyone curious how this played out. The AP woman who was over-texting me, seemed to chill for a while with the news that she got a great new job which would take her out of state for the next 4 to 6 months. We talked about visiting each other when possible. But as the time drew closer for her to leave, her anxiety seemed to creep up again, and the texting and gift-sending became invasive and a source of frustration for me.
She came down to spend a final night with me before she was to leave, and ended up completely losing her sh*t on me, weeping and telling me she never wanted to see me again because I couldn't handle her intensity, and refused to be exclusive. Keep in mind we'd only been seeing each other 1 month, and she was about to move to a different state! She took it back by morning, but I was done.
We've still been talking some, she still claims huge emotions for me, but I've pretty much "deactivated." I feel sad it didn't work out with someone who is so smart, funny, and interesting, but I don't dare admit it to her for fear she'll amp up her efforts to get back with me.
It was very educational being on the avoidant side of the "relationship," not my usual place in the dynamic.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 20:26:48 GMT
Here's an update for anyone curious how this played out. The AP woman who was over-texting me mostly continued her behavior even after I thought we'd talked it out. Then, she started sending gifts and flowers to a point I felt it was invasive. Then she got a job out of state for the next 4 to 6 months. I breathed a sigh of relief, thinking she'd have distraction away from me, and I was happy for her, the job is a great one. I considered keeping getting to know her long-distance, visiting when possible. But then on our last night together, she completely lost her sh*t on me, weeping and telling me she never wanted to see me again because I refused to be exclusive. Keep in mind we'd only been seeing each other 1 month, and she was about to move to a different state! She took it back by morning, but I was done. We've still been talking some, she still claims huge emotions for me, but I've pretty much "deactivated." I miss her attention in some ways, and feel sad it didn't work out with someone who is so smart, funny, and interesting, but I don't dare admit it to her for fear she'll amp up her efforts to get back with me. It was very interesting to be on the avoidant side of the "relationship," not my usual place in the dynamic. Isn't this beyond AP? Reminds me of the vulnerable narcs only more intense initially. But yeah; doesn't really matter what's going on with her- you did your best to communicate and have boundaries and appreciate her strong points. I never could have made it past the first couple days of the constant contact. It's all a learning experience though! For me, red flag behavior is just a stop sign. I don't try to negotiate it because it's never been fruitful! Incidentally- my relationships don't have red flag behavior nor do they feel like a strenuous uphill battle anymore. Yay! Best to you moving forward!
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Post by lovebunny on Aug 30, 2019 21:30:08 GMT
Thanks, Sherry,
I just read your post about vulnerable narcissists, that may well be right, but yeah, who knows.
I definitely suspected Cluster B traits, what with the lovebombing, her constant self-induced drama, her lack of self-control. I thought it showed low self-esteem that she chased a woman who wasn't showing much interest, but then, she often seemed to have a totally inflated self esteem. She told me, repeatedly, I was the first woman to ever reject her, and she seems to overestimate how interested other people are in her. She never accepts "no" for an answer (makes her great at her job, not so great as a romantic partner,) "No" seems to set her into a tailspin. She is very focused on fulfilling her need for constant attention, whether I wanted to give her that attention or not.
But of course, my part in all this needs work, too. I talked myself out of acting on red flags so I could enjoy her sex, attention, and companionship. I accepted her adoration (even if it was mostly projection/objectification) without giving it in return.
I don't have the heart to go NC unless I have to. I've been obsessively preoccupied before, and it sucks. For me, it's helpful to get let go gently but firmly. Yesterday she sent some "I miss you texts" to which I responded briefly and sympathetically, but I refused her requests to facetime or to agree to a visit in the near future "as friends." Today is blissful radio silence.
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Post by dhali on Aug 31, 2019 0:52:08 GMT
This may mirror some DA deactivating processing, but is fundamentally different in that you addressed the issue and gave an opportunity to correct. In my experience with a DA (only had one that I know of, thank the lord), nothing was ever addressed. Sure the DA had a process of deactivating, but the other person is in the dark on that, and never had a chance. Just an observation to the celebration going on here to a perceived understanding.
What I contend you experienced is a person who ignored your stated boundaries, and you deactivated. Just like anyone else would do.
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Post by lovebunny on Aug 31, 2019 12:39:23 GMT
Thanks, Dhali,
That makes sense. I'm usually AP, but have had instances in the past of turning FA. But I think you are right, this isn't avoidance, but rather a valid response to someone who wasn't going to make for a good partner for me.
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Post by averyleigh on Aug 31, 2019 15:56:08 GMT
I'm AP, and a few weeks ago, started casually dating a woman who is even more so. I tend to be drawn to people who seem emotionally cool, it soothes me somehow--until it doesn't because they're TOO cool. I want to break that pattern, but I've been struggling not to turn all avoidy on this woman. She is very nice and smart and funny and we have a lot in common. But I find her constantly wanting to talk, and constantly pushing to escalate the relationship, stressful. I'm an introvert, she's a chatterbox. She lives 3 hours away, so we've only had one face-to-face "date," which actually lasted about 30 hours and was awesome. We've done a lot more messaging and videochatting. From our very first (online) conversation, she's been more into me than I'm into her, and we're both aware of that, for better or for worse. I've had to ask her more than once to please limit texting/messaging. She wants to talk at me much more than I want to be talked to at this point in our friendship. I know it hurts her feelings for me to say "please stop texing so much," but I don't know what else to do. I try not responding quickly, or saying I can't talk, or only respond with one word or sentence to her missives (she uses voice to text, maybe part of the problem.) That seems to make it worse. When I remind her I just don't want to be on my phone that often, she stops for a while, but then when I reengage her, she thinks it means text away at will. Last night I had to ask her again to chill out on the chatter. 3rd time. Then she started doubting if she should come see me this weekend, because clearly I need more "space." I'm like, no, I just need less texting! Thing is, if she's back off a little, I'd probably move towards her some, and maybe she'd relax a little. Anyone have advice? Hi lovebunny, This is hard to read. Really difficult because no human wants to feel like they are creepy, insecure, or pushing themselves on someone who doesn’t want them. I have exhibited these behaviors in the past and didn’t understand why. I’ve never been told I was a stalker, desperate or creepy so to all of a sudden be told to stop messaging was a big blow to my ego. Every situation is different, yours is similar to mine. Hopefully I can give you some insight by explaining to you my mindset at the time when I was overly communicating and now reflecting back. The first time we actually spent time together, he seemed very caring, protective, and we surprisingly had a lot in common. He asked to see me 2-4 times a week for months. We both were intensely messaging and there wasn’t much of a boundary. In the beginning he would call me to ask me out to parties or to chat. We continued messaging silly things and quickly became close friends. And then things changed, especially when he was with his folks or friends, apparently that was a big boundary as he liked to keep things separate. I had no idea that it had been bothersome and he struggled with knowing how to tell me. His deactivation & silence I felt really hurt and made me anxious because he didn’t explain it. So when he finally told me his new request, I was hurt but thought I knew better. I was so used to our pattern and level of communication so I didn’t know how to change it after being told this. It’s like his words broke me. It’s anyone’s worst fear to be told you aren’t wanted. I now see that isn’t what he actually said, he said he needed space not that he wanted me to disappear, but I couldn’t hear that. I was addicted to our closeness and felt like I was being pushed away which is hard not to feel personal. I couldn’t objectively observe my issues with boundaries and enmeshment at the time. That combined with me somehow sniffing out that he was emotionally unavailable got me hooked. (and yes sometimes the signs are obvious and can also be perceived to others as a challenge, for me it was familiarity) In looking back, I’m embarrassed and shameful about the way I handled things. It’s complicated. I do sense that I may have been fooled a bit considering some of the obscure things we surprisingly had in common could have been found in some of my older Instagram posts. (as of recent when I was cleaning up my IG page, I stumbled upon some really old posts/ things he mentioned to me in passing which made me feel like oh wow, that’s incredible we have these obscure things in common) I will never truly know but some are so obscure, I’d be surprised if it were pure coincidence. It felt nice to have someone, normally reserved, make effort and pursue my friendship. He also paid attention to the things about me and the things I loved. (side note he was my kryptonite because he also reminded me of a combination of old friends/ flames/family members I had unresolved issues with) The second I was hooked by what felt like closeness, I showed maybe too much excitement and eagerness. He started to put apply boundaries and that made me feel rejected. It felt unfair, I felt that my kindness was overlooked and I was perceived as weak. I didn’t realize he was feeling engulfed and trapped. All I could feel was intense pain and it was easier for me to point the finger at him and the issues were solely his, than it was to acknowledge that intense painful feeling I felt was an old wound from my childhood, I had inconsistent caregiving from my family who were all DAs and FAs. And the more I felt rejected, I would either double down or exude protest behavior which would make him deactivate and stonewall me. On one hand I was told I was the closest person to him and that he had never spent so much time with anyone ever, and on the other hand I felt like he was also avoiding me, as if I was a nuisance. This is what hurt the most for me because that is an old wound from my childhood, feeling like I wasn’t enough for my father to stay with us. There was this very sad child inside me acting out and trying to get back to the good parts and not understanding so much had been broken after several cycles of this and it could never go back to before. I kept doubling down thinking I could save him and felt something was wrong with him. He would say things like he had trouble feeling things and had never experienced love...I didn’t realize this was a flag for me, and that something isn’t genuinely wrong with him, but something was wrong with me. The compulsion of needing to fix others is something wrong with me. The thinking that if I can change him would finally validate me is the real problem not the way he felt or dealt with things. Here I am feeling terrible pain and not understanding I should walk away. My emotions are brilliant alarm systems and indicators that I am in an unhealthy situation but yet I ignored them, in the same way I did when I was a child trying to survive in my family. As an adult I can choose, but here I was allowing the wounded child to act out, simmer in toxicity and take over my grown senses. It was hard to walk away when I could sense that he felt something for me (not just in my head; in addition to spending loads of time with me, his body language said a lot, he was always facing, hovering me, legs open, cheeks and lips flushed, constantly grooming his hair, pupils dilated in brightly lit areas and his eyes darted my from my eyes to my mouth constantly) I felt he cared in his own way, but probably never actually physically felt/acknowledged it himself. When we would meet up after days of stonewalling, I would feel so hurt I couldn’t even speak. The intensity of the emotions we both felt was unbearable. I would walk on egg shells and have trouble saying what I actually meant because I was so anxious from feeling rejected and he would only feel comfortable lashing out in anger, and cruel words which would make me shut down entirely. It felt really toxic, abusive, and inconsistent, mirroring my childhood. I believe to have also felt a trauma bond which kept me holding on. The depth of pain was so old, unresolved and been buried for so long, that when it unleashed, my reaction probably startled him. The poor guy was probably so confused (lol) of why this was killing me. I’m assuming this is what you probably dealt with...an intensity that came out of nowhere. Regarding boundaries that is something I am actively working on, understanding real intimacy vs. enmeshment/codependency. I feel awful now looking back because the intensity I felt wasn’t just for him...it was an unresolved intensity and it was old that was just reignited with the right person who could relive the pattern I knew so well. I think we both triggered and subconsciously acted out and lived out our worst fears, which is getting close to people only means pain and abandonment, so don’t bother. Lol...I went off on a tangent. But my advice is if you sense something off right away, don’t allow it to push on your boundaries, then burst out when you are livid. Feel out your feelings, be really honest with yourself and only engaging in a pattern you are okay with from the beginning is vital. Maybe you didnt know this boundary until after meeting this person, but now you know. It’s harder to take something away once you have established it as the norm. People like myself never meant to hurt anyone or wants to be a nuisance. We have an insecure attachment and have issues seeing boundaries because we grew up with enmeshment and having our boundaries pushed, so we don’t even recognize it when we are doing it. I’m certain, if she decided to look inward and work on herself, she would apologize to you for not understanding how badly she made you feel.
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Post by lovebunny on Sept 7, 2019 23:34:16 GMT
Averyleigh,
I think what you wrote up there is an amazing explanation for your feelings and behavior. I totally seem to trigger this woman, I don't think she even understands why she's acting so crazy when it comes to me. And I feel powerless to stop it. Even when I give her my time, affection, attention, it's never enough, because she's giving me 80% more. And if I try to pull back so we can focus on ourselves individually, try to create some healthy distance, she loses it.
It sucks because I liked her, I still like her, but she never gave me any space to invest in the relationship because I was so busy always trying to get her to back off! It turns in an instant from us genuinely enjoying each other, to her wheedling for more from me, then tears, accusations and emotional blackmail. I left our time together feeling exhausted and beat down.
I don't think she does any of this maliciously. I think I triggered an addiction in her.
She's blocked me now, anyway, after agreeing to be exclusive with a woman she just met, and apparently her attachment to me is a threat to that bond. I was trying to stay friends, which was what she said she wanted, and I opened up a little that I was feeling lonely and depressed, and somehow it turned into her feeling like she needed to fix me at the expense of everything else. Then I pulled back, and she blocked and unfriended me. It hurts, but it's for the best I guess. I'm actually proud of her.
Just like she's not trying to be draining and clingy, I'm not trying to be cold and distant. We just trigger each other. Seriously, that last awful night we spent together, after she'd torn me a new a**hole for taking more than I give, for not wanting her as badly as she wanted me, I had a horrible anxiety attack, sobbing, couldn't breathe, like someone sitting on my chest. She realized, shocked: "I'm not good for you. I make you physically and emotionally ill."
None of this is normal, right?
The worst part is, now that she's stopped contact, I miss her, and am sitting on my hands to not contact her, not be that jerk who circles back and breadcrumbs and starts the whole mess up again.
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