|
Post by alexandra on Nov 13, 2022 4:27:50 GMT
seeking, I think you've answered your own question through your actions. If you haven't prioritized meeting him, or felt the least bit excited about it, then you're not interested in him. And that's okay! I think it is odd he's not tried to meet you and is okay with just being pen pals (which is the red flag here, after 4 months, assuming he hasn't communicated intentions... if he said he enjoys your current communications and isn't looking for more and you're on the same page then that's fine). That sounds like he's emotionally unavailable and just looking to chat with someone. Maybe that's what you are actually picking up on. Beyond that, you really can't make realistic romantic decisions about people without meeting them and getting to know them, at least over video chat if not in person. If you're not interested in taking the next step, and if he's not expressed that interest either, then it's okay to write him off as not a romantic connection. Close the door, don't second guess yourself, don't see fantasy potential. Don't "what if." I'd even venture to suggest not trying to date until you have more time to prioritize it. Get to know people if you seek connection, but they don't all need to turn into something romantic if you don't have the time or will to make space for a romantic relationship right at this moment anyway.
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Nov 13, 2022 13:48:50 GMT
seeking , I think you've answered your own question through your actions. If you haven't prioritized meeting him, or felt the least bit excited about it, then you're not interested in him. And that's okay! I think it is odd he's not tried to meet you and is okay with just being pen pals (which is the red flag here, after 4 months, assuming he hasn't communicated intentions... if he said he enjoys your current communications and isn't looking for more and you're on the same page then that's fine). That sounds like he's emotionally unavailable and just looking to chat with someone. Maybe that's what you are actually picking up on. He's been pursuing me to meet since the spring!
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Nov 13, 2022 13:57:32 GMT
Beyond that, you really can't make realistic romantic decisions about people without meeting them and getting to know them, at least over video chat if not in person. If you're not interested in taking the next step, and if he's not expressed that interest either, then it's okay to write him off as not a romantic connection. Close the door, don't second guess yourself, don't see fantasy potential. Don't "what if." I'd even venture to suggest not trying to date until you have more time to prioritize it. Get to know people if you seek connection, but they don't all need to turn into something romantic if you don't have the time or will to make space for a romantic relationship right at this moment anyway. We've had a video chat. And we planned to do another. I would at least do that. But then I find that I don't want to make the time for it. I don't remember a lot around our last video chat other than - he was beaming at me. Looking at my "googly-eyed" - that felt overwhelming. And he mentioned the grocery store/food thing (which I probably wrote about here- maybe even in this thread) and it was a HUGE turn off. And I got off the call thinking, "Well that's that." But then I keep bypassing that for these reasons 1) I'm too picky and that pickiness means I'll never find anyone 2) Pickins are slim these days. (I have not met or talked to anyone since him). 3) Maybe that's me finding a reason b/c he does seem pretty available on some level and that feels like "too much" so my avoidance comes up. So I've kept communicating with him. And actually at one point, I started to feel more open to him, more connected, and wanting to meet and excited, and then he told me he was taking a second trip back to somewhere - and I was like, Did you go meet someone down there? He said yes but "just platonic" -- and then another trip and he sort of said "all just platonic" and then mentioned how he felt warmth with me or something and I said I was looking for something serious (I didn't know his divorce situation b/c he was seeking an annulment) and he said ultimately he wants that too but brought up the Catholic thing and that was still up in the air. I believe him on all fronts. He's very genuine and sincere. He's way too dorky to be a player, lol. But then my abandonment parts felt prickly (about him going down to see this person again) (he didn't end up going b/c she had to cancel for some reason) and I realized maybe those parts just like the position of being pursued and saying no (while not really committing) (for whatever reason) but the minute they sense that attention going elsewhere, they get cold. Clearly I have issues! But I guess I can just do one more video chat to be sure. My grown-up/more stable parts think it would be dumb not to.
|
|
|
I'm Back
Nov 13, 2022 18:28:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by alexandra on Nov 13, 2022 18:28:09 GMT
seeking Why don't you trust yourself that you're not interested in him? It sounds like any attention you're giving him is due to your own scarcity mentality / fear of being single and alone. And that you feel safer, though from a distance, if someone will keep pursuing you no matter what. If he's been pursuing you since spring and getting no where in regards to getting closer to you or building a connection beyond one video chat in 4 months... then that indicates to me he probably has anxious attachment issues. A red flag for avoidance would be not trying to move things further after months but not openly communicating with you that he wants a pen pal. A red flag for anxious attachment is he's been chasing without progress or equal interest from you for several months. (There's not enough information about if it's AP or FA as you've been avoidant with him and he's reacting to that by trying to stay connected so who knows his interest levels once someone is available.) This isn't a normal dating situation, the dynamics on both sides indicate issues. I'm not sure video chatting again will give you clarity because you've already made up your mind to find issues with him, so it's really okay to let him go without telling yourself a story that you're missing out on this great fantasy guy. I think it's very likely the issues are a combination of you putting up avoidant walls and him not being the right match for you, rather than just one or the other. I can tell you from personal experience that making decisions out of fear doesn't generally result in satisfaction and happiness.
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Nov 13, 2022 23:43:40 GMT
seeking Why don't you trust yourself that you're not interested in him? It sounds like any attention you're giving him is due to your own scarcity mentality / fear of being single and alone. And that you feel safer, though from a distance, if someone will keep pursuing you no matter what. If he's been pursuing you since spring and getting no where in regards to getting closer to you or building a connection beyond one video chat in 4 months... then that indicates to me he probably has anxious attachment issues. I do trust myself. But then I go too crazy thinking there will be no one - because there has been no one - and "can't I just _____________________" (get over it, put up with it, look past it, etc). As far as him being anxious - IDK. He has done a ton of other things - I think he regularly hikes or does something with someone he met on weekends. He was going to visit this other person in another state. He goes to parties and gatherings and travels. So it's not like he's waiting around for me. Just keeps saying, "Hey when you're free let's plan that get together," kinda thing. But it's helpful for me to see if *someone* (again, IDK about him, per se) were doing this that would mean anxious. I can see that for sure.
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Nov 13, 2022 23:45:53 GMT
(There's not enough information about if it's AP or FA as you've been avoidant with him and he's reacting to that by trying to stay connected so who knows his interest levels once someone is available.) True and good point!
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Nov 13, 2022 23:48:50 GMT
I'm not sure video chatting again will give you clarity because you've already made up your mind to find issues with him, This is an interesting statement that makes me want to perpetuate the same thinking I've been writing about here, which is that I can *make up my mind* to not find issues with him. Which is the only reason I keep going round and round on this. I'm going to have to do that somewhere, at some point, with someone, right? I mean, realistically speaking, when we partner, we are essentially doing that. So that's kind of the point of this post, or at least what I've been writing about recently, is that am I making up my mind to be avoidant here? Can I work through it since I want to earn secure? Esp since -- practically speaking (I don't know if this is really scarcity or really reality) there are not a ton of prospects....
|
|
|
I'm Back
Nov 14, 2022 2:06:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by alexandra on Nov 14, 2022 2:06:17 GMT
seeking introvert probably has more to say on working through the avoidant side of yourself that's looking to find fault in others. My opinion is, you need to be on the road to addressing that before you meet the new person. The mindset needs to come out of your own drive for change, not as a reaction to some guy being in front of you as an option (changing for yourself, not for another person). I think it will be really difficult to change your mindset of several months after finding reasons to be put off by him, to say well I don't want to be alone so how can I flip a switch that will make this work? Again, I think there's a you problem and a him problem here, both you being avoidant and him likely not being emotionally available either (at least, that's what pops out to me from your description of his persistence, even if he also has a life) and you instinctually picking up on that. A more secure person, who still barely knows you, would have seen this had no momentum and let it fade out. My advice would be different if this was established: someone you'd been dating a while, he was committed, and maybe you had been more interested in the past but you were disconnecting from your feelings for him without knowing why. For someone you really don't know and haven't felt any interest for though, I don't see it as being the right person to try to force things with and convince yourself to overcome your mindset when it isn't working from the beginning! I understand what you're saying about how do you work through your side, and it being a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Like, at what point then do you make the decision to not find fault? And in my opinion that requires recognizing within yourself why you're finding fault (to the extent that it is your issues and not his, the part that is actually nothing to do with him). Nitpicking, fault finding, those are defense mechanisms to create distance so you can comfortably coexist with your own lack of emotional availability. The "what if"ing actually does the same, since you aren't present or building the connection with the person in front of you, since your mind is in potential and fantasy scenarios. You wanting to not be single in theory isn't the same as you showing up as a good partner in a mature relationship in practice. You can long for a partner, but if one appears, panic about real intimacy. That's what FA people do, it's textbook FA. Want connection to relieve feelings of loneliness and have companionship, panic when it gets too real. When I would date before getting a grip on my anxious side, and the problem the self-doubt caused in my identity which in turn made me not know what I wanted and eroded my boundaries (so I'd try to bend myself and force things to work with others who weren't a good fit), I'd just repeat. It didn't matter if I told myself I'd do something different this time, I'd force myself to bend another way. All that resulted in was me switching from unconsciously always picking DA to always picking FA (it was misguided thinking, but I figured I needed to date people who showed more interest right away than DA usually did, and that would fix my poor dating picker). I needed to really start digging into who I was and what my fears were and why and where they were from before I could recognize when someone was a healthier fit for me and not sabotage it or get stuck in doubt. I know you've done a lot of work and you've drawn some connections, but my recommendation is actually to go way back to your love vision exercise. Maybe it's not enough to imagine the kind of person and relationship you want. Maybe you need to go deeper and think about why you want those things, what value it would add to your life, why it would be a compatible fit for you. Not to reinforce any check box lists of what you need, making it easier to get lost in a fantasy that will push away men who miss the mark... but to help you connect to your own feelings about why you have doubts about others, what your needs actually are, what do you really want? If you could answer that, you'd have a much easier time deciding if this guy fits into that and if it's a "f*ck yes! ... or no" as Marc Manson would say. If you've got the time and want to make the effort, you have nothing to lose by doing another video chat if you can stop yourself from ruminating and overanalyzing afterwards, and you can just make a decision afterward in one direction or the other. My concern is you'll have no additional clarity, since this really isn't about him, and you'll stay on the "what if" path, and your conversation with him will contribute to further dragging things out and not wanting to let go of any options, even if things with him are forced. Which will distract from the rest of the stuff I'm talking about.
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Nov 14, 2022 3:22:04 GMT
That's what FA people do, it's textbook FA. Want connection to relieve feelings of loneliness and have companionship, panic when it gets too real.Is it still FA to feel like you're connecting and in a relationship, but really only being that way with DAs or other avoidants? And then changing more to anxious? Or is that just generally disorganized. Because I can definitely relate to the FA description here. But when I'm with someone I'm truly into, I don't panic when it gets too real. I end up being more AP. And this post is Amazing. I'm reading it over and over and will save it. Things have never quite sunk in the way they are reading your response. I really needed this understanding right now. So incredibly helpful. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Nov 14, 2022 3:31:01 GMT
I'm also definitely going to do this work. I'm in a training right now and I know myself and tendency to "disappear" for another month, but as a placeholder, and to hold myself a little accountable, I'm going to say here my first responses to some prompting.
Like what am I truly afraid of with the man in question (with regard to my particular nitpicking of him). And the first thoughts that come to mind are:
- losing myself - like being "smothered" by his way of being so positive all the time - feeling miserable - because I committed to someone who has attributes that truly irritate me - feeling isolated and alone -- which really comes down to "disconnected" which feels unsafe to me - eventually hating him or resenting him (I fear being trapped in a situation like that)
And the love vision thing and needs
- I feel extremely strongly about the person I'm with having LOADS of intelligence - both book smart and also emotionally intelligent, and being that old soul type I was talking about. I could put up with a LOT else if this is present. This feels like a deal-breaker to me. I can't imagine being with someone without this. (in the past few nights, I dreamt about being married to a lawyer from NYC - so smart and cultured and knows how to be with people - street smarts. And an old friend who is a librarian and poet and maybe not an "old soul" but has a lot of depth).
And it feels comforting. Without that, I feel like an alien on another planet.
|
|
|
Post by introvert on Nov 14, 2022 6:17:27 GMT
alexandra my personal opinion is that the need to have an ideal partner in terms of some specific, amazing traits is an insecure defense. I am with what one might call an old soul, highly intellectually intelligent and emotionally intelligent. Genius level, with adhd, yes, but nonetheless the kind of partner that I'm extremely fortunate to have found, although I didn't have a list of traits really- I had a list of my own boundaries and was finally tuned into my feelings. I liked how he seemed to actually see and appreciate me and he respected me in ways that really showed. My insecure 'ideal' used to be something else actually- it was other more superficial or practical stuff because emotional connection wasn't a high priority before I became aware and available. (I had other things in mind when it came to my safety fantasy... including being alone forever. I generally liked that idea and it seemed most realistic due to my feeling like an alien in the world myself.) I had dispensed with the need for an ideal partner and was genuinely able to connect with my now-boyfriend by the time I met him. We took time to get to know one another without a lot of expectations. His amazing traits unfolded over time, just as his problematic traits did. There is actually no ideal person who won't hurt or challenge you, that's just a protection fantasy in my opinion and one can have the fantasy without being aware of the reason. My point- I get those things (emotional intelligence, intellectual intelligence)being important. However, I also believe that the Ideal image one may have of a future partner can serve as a (fantasy) insurance policy against fear and insecurity, potential conflict, and whatever else one does not feel confident about facing in a relationship. As in: "My ideal partner will be without intellectual or emotional flaw (any other flaw is fine!) so they will be beyond reproach when it comes to understanding me, understanding and meeting my needs, and having grace and empathy toward me. They will be the perfect partner so I will be safe and not have to face the discomfort of dealing with someone intellectually or emotionally imperfect or immature, because such a person may hurt me in some devastating way. An old soul will not reject me, they will see that I am an old soul, we will get each other and ours will be a relationship advanced beyond the hardship that other relationships face because we will appreciate each other for our mutual gifts. Since we are emotionally evolved we won't hurt each other, or at least if we do the solutions will come for sure and there won't be risk of failure because intelligent old souls don't disappoint, at least not the way my mom and dad and every attachment figure so far has." I personally had to deal with my own fears and buried shame before I became available to another flawed human with whom I would have to work through painful stuff with. Until then I had some indefinable ideal that no one could live up to that kept me finding fault and isolating and repeating my own avoidance narrative. Staying safe, that is. That's what it's about. My take may or may not be relevant but I offered it as I was tagged. Disregard if it's off base, it's just my perspective.
|
|
|
Post by introvert on Nov 14, 2022 6:48:47 GMT
|
|
|
I'm Back
Nov 14, 2022 7:53:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by alexandra on Nov 14, 2022 7:53:28 GMT
Is it still FA to feel like you're connecting and in a relationship, but really only being that way with DAs or other avoidants? And then changing more to anxious? Or is that just generally disorganized. Because I can definitely relate to the FA description here. But when I'm with someone I'm truly into, I don't panic when it gets too real. I end up being more AP. FA and disorganized describe the same thing and are basically interchangeable words. FA has a disorganized strategy for getting their needs met, and I believe in the UK they use disorganized instead of FA as the name of the style. But yes, if you are FA and enter a relationship with someone more avoidant than you, you will lean anxious. This is because the other person has walls up and is emotionally unavailable in some capacity, so the distance you actually need (whether conscious or subconscious) to feel comfortable enough to not swing avoidant over the intimacy is built in by their inherent lack of availability without you having to additionally come up with ways and defense mechanisms to distance yourself. I'm going to give your list a shot: - losing myself - like being "smothered" by his way of being so positive all the time - this is a "you" issue coming from your insecure attachment. While it is normal enough for a partner's mood overall to have some impact on you, if you have a strong sense of self and identity with healthy boundaries, then you won't get smothered by the moods of another person because you won't be merging with them emotionally (enmeshment), if that makes sense? There's a distinct enough separation between them and you that you are two whole individuals, even though you two are also emotionally connected. So you can respect your own boundaries before you feel smothered. That being said, if the other person wants to merge and expects you to emotionally regulate them, they are co-dependent with lousy boundaries, and then it is normal to reconsider if the relationship is a good fit because it may not actually functionally work. - feeling miserable - because I committed to someone who has attributes that truly irritate me - this is a relationship compatibility issue. Are you spending the majority of your time annoyed? Or are they minor issues that don't come up often and aren't dealbreakers? Can you talk to them about what isn't working for you and problem solve together in a healthy and safe way? No one is perfect, but you shouldn't be excusing someone who you don't really like that much just because you fear being alone. - feeling isolated and alone -- which really comes down to "disconnected" which feels unsafe to me - this might be a "you" problem but it also might be a "them" problem. Are you feeling disconnected because you've withdrawn and gotten triggered avoidant? Or is the disconnection because they are avoidant? If they are avoidant and it does not feel safe for you, you can attempt to bring it up but if they aren't receptive there's nothing you can do (that's why it's a "them" problem), so that's a situation worth walking away from. If you are the one disconnecting when intimacy deepens due to your own insecure attachment, then they can't do anything about it and you need to introspect further. - eventually hating him or resenting him (I fear being trapped in a situation like that) - this is a "you" insecure attachment issue, effectively for the same reasons I gave under the first bullet point. If you are connected with yourself and your self of sense and identity are strong and healthy, then you'll know you have enough agency to not be trapped. You can make decisions and feel comfortable taking accountability rather than allowing everything to be out of your control and simply reacting and sticking around in a bad situation. You're also anticipating everything becoming negative instead of approaching the connection with the other person openly, because your self defense mechanisms are stopping you. When what needs to happen here is you learn new tools for how to not emotionally abandon yourself if things aren't going well. Resilience through confidence in yourself and practicing your own agency rather than "resilience" that is coming out of survival or desperation. Hope it helps, glad to hear it sounds like there have been some good take aways to consider so far! And I'm speaking more from the anxious side of FA, introvert added a bunch of commentary for the avoidant side.
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Nov 14, 2022 14:37:32 GMT
As in: "My ideal partner will be without intellectual or emotional flaw (any other flaw is fine!) so they will be beyond reproach when it comes to understanding me, understanding and meeting my needs, and having grace and empathy toward me. They will be the perfect partner so I will be safe and not have to face the discomfort of dealing with someone intellectually or emotionally imperfect or immature, because such a person may hurt me in some devastating way. An old soul will not reject me, they will see that I am an old soul, we will get each other and ours will be a relationship advanced beyond the hardship that other relationships face because we will appreciate each other for our mutual gifts. Since we are emotionally evolved we won't hurt each other, or at least if we do the solutions will come for sure and there won't be risk of failure because intelligent old souls don't disappoint, at least not the way my mom and dad and every attachment figure so far has." This is really helpful to see and I'm finally getting the idea of the things I do as defensive accommodations - that part is really sinking in and I still have more to process around that and also in your post. But for right now with 2 mins I have, this jumps out at me. I'm reading this and going "Oh, yeah, now I see..." but my brain is also going - but I don't feel at risk of rejection with people like the man in question. I feel more at risk with someone who presented in the way I am (apparently fantasizing) about.... as in "OMG, this is so rare, I don't want to ____________________ - lose him, have him reject me, go away, something to happen, etc. etc. " - that definitely brings up more anxiety than avoidance. But with the guy in question who is not "meeting the criteria," I feel irritated. Not in fear of rejection or insecure. So I guess that's why I'm not understanding how this works - my fault finding feels more real/genuine to me than an insecure strategy..... Like I would be bored or not engaged or disconnected - that feels more like the REAL FEAR (Being trapped in something I don't enjoy) than actual potential intimacy. I'm not saying how I'm thinking of it is right, just where my ability to understand this is at the moment. Hope that makes sense. So just to reiterate, the fear goes more like..... Someone comes along who has the traits I'm looking for - OH SH*T - what if I lose him or we get close b/c that would be terrifying considering I'd always be *preoccupied* with the idea of things getting messed up. versus The guy in question who has a lot of nice qualities and seems (at least on paper) worth pursuing, but I'm stuck on him not having the important traits I'm looking for because I DON'T WANT TO BE TRAPPED - that feels scary and sad to me. Finally partnering, but sort of "settling" and not really getting what I want. So this is why I'm SCREWED lol.
|
|
|
Post by introvert on Nov 14, 2022 14:39:25 GMT
I can't really relate to having the same ideal type as OP, but I do think that having an ideal type or mandatory ideal traits can be an excuse to judge and reject others (prematurely at that, because it takes time to really know a person and projection is often at play in insecure dynamics). It's not that we can't desire a certain type. My focus however was on the quality of interaction without a label... feelings of safety, intimacy, connection, trust, respect, etc came from a far different "type" that I would have thought. When I was categorizing (contrasting, finding fault with) people I didn't know shit, basically, because I was doing it as a way to remain avoidant.
The experience of someone often doesn't jibe with the preconceived notion of someone and it's more important. Open-mindedness is important and if you find yourself constantly judging someone and finding reasons to reject that's an inside issue more than a reflection of who they are. My opinion. Not everyone will be a match and a protracted deliberation is stalling on a decision, which can meet insecure objectives of remaining unavailable AND feeding a fantasy of possibility, staying in limbo without having to do anything but think about stuff too much.
|
|