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Post by alexandra on Apr 26, 2023 19:42:30 GMT
He didn't trick you. He was never truly available, but when the relationship was newer and more distracting from his bad feelings about himself, he could ignore his fears for a little while. He was on a new high that he eventually acclimated to, and I'm sure none of that was done consciously or intentionally. He cares about you to the extent he has the capacity, that's not the problem here. Do not bring up his overcoming substance abuse in this romantic relationship context. They are both symptoms of his FA and other emotional issues for sure, because they're based out of fear, lack of connection, intimacy problems, not having healthy coping mechanisms for problems, etc etc., but both are very very personal processes that someone has to be ready for and want to make changes. I was never avoidant, but I feel like if you approached me that way and tried to tie together a past success I had that probably came with feelings I still struggle with on the regular (which I assure you he does since he hasn't overall overcome his trauma-based issues or possibly general imbalances if he's bipolar or something, plus he's still struggling to get his medications right), I'd just be angry. Because you're telling me how to feel and what to do about my most personal struggles, and failings, and you don't understand my feelings while poking into my most sensitive topics. His past substance abuse is unrelated to this romantic context, even though it's all tied back to trauma. Even if you're trying to say it as a positive, "I know you can change because here's an amazing example of when you've done it before." In a way, doing that still makes it about you (please change for me because I feel uncomfortable but don't know how to feel better or how to leave), and his past success overcoming adversity had nothing to do with you or anyone but himself. It all stems from his trauma and where he is in his process. Which... is inconsistent and unavailable at this point. I know as an AP (or possibly anxious FA) you want to focus on all the positives and grab at the crumbs you get that are the fulfilling parts of the relationship, and tolerate the rest. You learned to do that at some point in childhood. But a relationship that's 90% good but those last 10% are a real incompatible doozy? I've been there when I was AP, and it doesn't work when a relationship only functions properly in good times. That's not how life works. Life isn't all rainbows all the time, and the trick is negotiating the bad times together with trust, honesty, communication, and vulnerability. It isn't the adversarial anxious/avoidant dance cycle. Being "there" for someone in a co-dependent way isn't the same as being in a mutual and reciprocal supportive relationship, where two adults act like adults and have a safe space to continue to adult when they get overwhelmed by the parts of life that aren't all rosy. But still maintain healthy boundaries with each other, and don't take things out on each other. He needs a lot more help, and needs to want it, before he can be an available and truly committed partner. You need to give him a chance to show you he heard you already and wants to make changes for HIMSELF, or not. So far, since he's run far back since your discussion, he's showing you he's not there. Full stop. Now you have the information you need to shift into exactly what introvert is saying. A successful partnership and relationship happens in part because you're able to choose an available enough partner. If he's showing you over and over that he isn't, now you turn the attention completely onto yourself and towards asking yourself why you're okay chasing that. What are your blind spots about your own lack of availability? Did you schedule your own therapy like you'd been considering? Where are you in all this when you DON'T worry at all about where he might be at the moment, and you're connecting with yourself? This isn't about him now, it's about you, totally independent of him.
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chase
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Post by chase on Apr 26, 2023 20:16:59 GMT
Do not bring up his overcoming substance abuse in this romantic relationship context. They are both symptoms of his FA and other emotional issues for sure, So far, since he's run far back since your discussion, he's showing you he's not there. Now you have the information you need to shift into exactly what introvert is saying. A successful partnership and relationship happens in part because you're able to choose an available enough partner. If he's showing you over and over that he isn't, now you turn the attention completely onto yourself and towards asking yourself why you're okay chasing that. What are your blind spots about your own lack of availability? Did you schedule your own therapy like you'd been considering? Where are you in all this when you DON'T worry at all about where he might be at the moment, and you're connecting with yourself? This isn't about him now, it's about you, totally independent of him. [/quote] *********************** **sorry, I was not implying "I" would bring up his past substance abuse to HIM. Just to you all HERE as I hadnt previously mentioned it in other postings.** When we were talking about the work I felt I needed to do, HE BROUGHT UP that he "made it through addiction so he thought he could make it through this and real change is possible." That's all. I haven't made an appointment yet, but have some numbers to call. I want to. I don't want to ever get stuck in this type of feeling again and want to be aware of my tendencies and behaviors. I'm not ok chasing this. I feel addicted to the good times admittedly and hoped they might return but am feeling less and less positive about it. I'm still leaving him alone, and hid silenced him on social media after another cryptic post (reach) today. I hadn't specifically asked for a set amount of time to work on me, or he on him, so I'm not sure if I just TAKE IT or TELL him at this point? Or just end it? Here is me, avoiding, I guess.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 26, 2023 21:12:12 GMT
I think what I am sitting on right now is this very point. Since I JUST brought it up days ago, and am JUST NOW learning more about it myself, am I AT THIS POINT yet? Nobody can answer that but me, I know, but it seems that this all makes so much sense. How LONG does one give someone to show they are going to put in the work, and for what reason (not for me, for him)? Does he really understand or have the capability to understand what HIS part is in this? I have not (until now) had a real explanation of how or why I felt anxious, just that I do (did) and would like consistent contact or warning if he is going silent. Should I mention that he had some substance abuse issues in the way past and overcame that and said that if he can do that and change his behavior and thinking, he can do this. (now, will I see that put into action? That is another story) Maybe that led to the reason he had those issues. I don't have fear of being alone, I think I have a pretty good self esteem and although not perfect, I can see my actions in all of this thanks to you all. I am anxiously grounded. LOL What I got from when the relationship is good, is really good. Matched for interests, sense of humor, attraction, morals and ethics. But the spells where the distance comes in are where it is really painfully interesting to read my diary (doesn't SOUND like me). For what it's worth, I just received a simple thumbs up emoji to my text response. Figures. Also-as to the point "begins with choosing an available partner, one who demonstrates consistent availability." He DID this. for around half a year. Was AVAILABLE and RECIPROCAL. Leading me to question if that was the mask? I didn't start the diary until I was feeling uncomfortable. Tiny part of my brain telling me "you were tricked." Yeah that's the very difficult part of the FA dynamic, the sudden switch after a period of time. I think I dated an FA at one point, and looking back the beginning wasn't so great, he was very intense and I actually felt I had to hold him off a bit. When he switched it was so updownupdown I lost patience in a few weeks and just cut it off. That's where there is a big difference... a more dismissive type will move away from what is destabilizing, and an anxious person will move toward it and become more anxious. We give up, anxious try harder. FA spin doing both. It's all very confusing but once you see it you can't unsee it, and that's when the hard work begins. I'm sorry you're going through it, it really sucks. BUT…he wasn’t…..availability isn’t defined by pursuit and attention at the beginning…it is earned by consistency. The beginning of any relationship cannot be used as it is a time when people are bringing their own “fantasies” to the table…it is called “the honeymoon period” for a reason. I think as an AP (and in my case, an AP leaning FA) we can rely too much on those initial months instead of seeing it as simply a phase where both people are just getting to know each other. In that sense…he was NOT available because he did not know you….he was only available to his only fantasies. If you look at things from that point of view, then he did not really switch at all….he simply became aware that his fantasies did not meet the realities of the two of you and instead of being honest…he used his existing coping mechanisms to try to create that fantasy again…..you feel too close, too demanding, too real….he backs away…you feel too distant…he feels free now to move closer. But it is a fine line and it was never about being available.
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Post by alexandra on Apr 27, 2023 3:49:16 GMT
**sorry, I was not implying "I" would bring up his past substance abuse to HIM. Just to you all HERE as I hadnt previously mentioned it in other postings.** I'm still leaving him alone, and hid silenced him on social media after another cryptic post (reach) today. I hadn't specifically asked for a set amount of time to work on me, or he on him, so I'm not sure if I just TAKE IT or TELL him at this point? Or just end it? Here is me, avoiding, I guess. Okay, good re: my misunderstanding about the substance abuse. I'm glad you weren't conflating that and using it to extend the conversation! In terms of what to say, it doesn't sound like you've been ignoring him. You did answer his text in a timely enough manner. You're just not overreaching and over-functioning in response to his vague messages on social media anymore. So you don't need to do anything right now except think about what you actually want. It's a shift from the anxious mindset of mind-reading for sure, to let him handle his side of things while you handle yours. But that's a good thing. You don't need to tell him you need space unless you decide you need space, you don't need to withhold responding to him if you want to respond. You just need to figure out what you want, and be honest with yourself about it. Avoiding might mean you already know the answer and are afraid of the disconnection, and that's okay, too.
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Post by introvert on Apr 27, 2023 15:27:15 GMT
Cryptic posting on social media < authentic communication with your partner.
It's kid stuff, isn't it? The world has become such a strange place. Our expectations have become so low. Think of all the time spent floating around in confusion with this guy vs. real time, genuine communication where actions actually MATCH words. It can be quite stunning to compare reality with fantasy, to contrast what's actually going on vs. what we wish was going on.
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chase
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Post by chase on Apr 27, 2023 19:21:42 GMT
update* He text asking if I had time to talk today. We met for lunch. I honestly felt very numb about it. Not sure what I was in for. He had tears. He made appointments. Talked to his dr via phone already. talked about meds. not diagnosed with depression, just GAD. They will revisit but he did share that with me. Referred to a therapist, will have to see if it is a good fit. He again apologized. He said he obviously was totally unaware of things called "attachment issues" only that he has always had anxiety and lack being able to regulate feelings. He felt simple. for not knowing or thinking to any root cause other than "this was the way he is." He would take things and ruminate negative stories to himself. As for being quiet as not to scare or push others away and didn't understand that there might be a WHY to it. Oblivious to what it made others feel like, then thought how selfish of him, how stupid of him, why would anyone want to be with that, I'll be quiet to be small and embarrassed and hurt alone. He was tired of thinking poorly of himself. But said he is tired of denying himself the relationships. I told him I am happy he made the calls, not for ME, but for HIM. I did say, none of this matters if you are doing it only to stay with me or you are scared of me leaving you. No matter what happens between us. You do your work, I'll do mine and we can see where that gets us. He did say that he expected it would be hard, to break old patterns of running and hiding. I said-I guess that is what a therapist will tackle with you. To not push away when you get insecure. What do do instead. I shared how hard it was and is for me to be learning my side of things so I understood. I mentioned we may even need a break, with love in mind, not a break up- but it would be ok to pause and focus on ourselves. That it is work that he should do on his own with his therapist and not with me, even though I do love and care about him. I was thanked for my patience so far. I think we are on a loving "pause." I actually feel really GOOD about it. I, myself have 2 calls in to talk with counselors.
Now, what are my pitfalls? What to look for in a therapist? Questions I should ask?
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Post by introvert on Apr 27, 2023 21:19:09 GMT
That's great that he is turning to professional help again. It sounds like he has a heavy burden of shame, which is heartbreaking and hopefully he can find the right therapist to help him unpack it. In my opinion a non threatening pause is a great idea, giving time for you to delve into your own issues. Do you think you will be able to detach a bit?
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Post by alexandra on Apr 27, 2023 23:22:38 GMT
That's great! I'm glad you're both at least initially following through on taking your own initiatives. That's not predictive of where things will end up, but it's a GREAT start that there's at least an opportunity, and you sound like you're realistic about what the priorities need to be for each of you right now for there to be a good shot at coming together in a better place later.
It's very normal to need a couple appointments with different therapists for trial and error and to see who you click with. Anyone who knows attachment theory is a good starting point for discussion. Maybe see if someone knows about recovering from multi-generational trauma. Have you done any research on the kind of therapy you want (traditional talk therapy, somatic experience therapy, etc)? That will also help you narrow it down. If you have any contacts in your network who seem to have really grown after their own therapy work, ask them for the contact information of their therapists, too. If you meet someone whose approach seems both foreign and completely counter-intuitive to you and your gut is that it isn't on the right path, that's probably a sign it's not the right practitioner. Yes, sometimes people are super defensive and resistant to the therapist because they're being avoidant so will be distrustful of any guidance they hear from the therapist, but on the flip side if you're very anxious and distrustful of your own judgement and going along with whatever without questioning, ignoring your instinct totally isn't good either. Therapy gets hard after a few weeks and that's normal enough (people can get scared and want to back away instead of push through as you get closer to addressing core wounds), but it's okay to question if something sounds funky right away.
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Post by mrob on Apr 28, 2023 3:43:29 GMT
12 step programmes are the way they are because substance abuse is but a symptom. Stopping using only treats one part of the illness. “But that’s the way I am” and “that’s the way I’ve always been” are shattered if one is working the programme. Personally, I wouldn’t be engaging in a relationship with a former user that isn’t doing something, whether it’s therapy or diligently working a programme. It’s too hard, otherwise.
For me, attachment theory came after working my programme, then meeting someone, then not so diligently and wondering why the same patterns were appearing again. It is possible that the cart can draw the horse for a while.
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chase
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Post by chase on May 1, 2023 14:41:24 GMT
I "hope" I am able to detach in a healthy manner. What I have observed is that I am much more CALM now that I can wrap my head around a REASON for behavior. I am thinking that traditional talk therapy would be great for me, wondering and hoping that I will click with the right therapist. I don't have any experience with therapy, however I am a talker, and I do a lot of work trying to understand the why's of things. Those why's seem to stick for me and then I know that as long as I am able to RECOGNIZE when I am being triggered, I usually don't have a problem moving on from whatever it is until I don't feel that way anymore.
There has been minimal contact (text only) since the last update. Both being kind to each other, as I said he was always a big feelings man, which is what attracted me to him in the first place. He isn't afraid to talk about them if I bring them up. For him he text that it is the recognizing when he gets triggered and goes quiet. I did not try to solve for him because I cannot. no plans on being together or seeing one another. Just a few texts of "I am thinking about you and looking forward to learning and loving myself" from him. I responded in kind. He has a consult this week and I have a meeting next week with maybe someone who will click with therapy. Thank you all!! I will update.
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