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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 13:10:18 GMT
looking at how wanting to win something, or someone, can present itself as what we take to be a feeling of love.
the loyalty we feel toward our desire can have behind it a deep tenacity to finally right some wrongs that have never been resolved within us. real wrongs! that do need to be righted. within us. by us. as adults with the capacity to love ourselves.
we can get caught in the romantic love story, and not be able to free ourselves from that (typically very painful) story, if we fail to see what our deep motivations are. these motivations are not bad. but they are there.
we need to know them. when we project them onto our story and another person with deep motivations unknown to them, pain inevitably ensues. for both.
it's ok to want to win, finally.
it's understandable, it's even poignant.
recognizing and embracing the need to win, and understanding what exactly we are trying to win, and determining if it is even a necessary conquest, can help us release ourselves from the story we are stuck in and hiding behind.
all of us with insecure attachment lost or were denied something vital that we are trying to win back, in some way.
understanding what that is and what it feels and looks like has been helpful for me.
it helps me to see past the tragic story of unrequited love.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 13:28:29 GMT
having come to the recent understanding that my mother was in fact sociopathic, has helped me make sense of my quest.
i knew she targeted me, and i spent my life trying to get my sea legs on a ship that lurched around constantly, imperiling me and disorienting me.
i understand now, that i have been trying all my life to win the empathy of someone close to me, who has the power to wrong me. Empathy for myself, something which normally would exist in a parental bond but was completely absent in mine, to the point of intentional psychological and emotional torture and the enablement of physical torture as well
i chose partners least able to show me empathy. What has liberated me from that hell has been an awareness and nurturing of deep and powerful empathy for myself.
it takes the form of listening to me, understanding me; and helping me, i am my own compassionate hero.
i am my own angel.
One might misunderstand, and think that i am saying that by rescuing myself, i finally became independent from others ansbneed no one. But the opposite is true.
I have become more able to depend upon others, in a healthy way, and allow them to depend upon me. i am open to other angels.
i am still refining this, and coming to more awareness, continually.
but it's a far cry from where i started, when i was young.
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Post by ocarina on Jun 8, 2018 21:41:04 GMT
having come to the recent understanding that my mother was in fact sociopathic, has helped me make sense of my quest. i knew she targeted me, and i spent my life trying to get my sea legs on a ship that lurched around constantly, imperiling me and disorienting me. i understand now, that i have been trying all my life to win the empathy of someone close to me, who has the power to wrong me. Empathy for myself, something which normally would exist in a parental bond but was completely absent in mine, to the point of intentional psychological and emotional torture and the enablement of physical torture as well i chose partners least able to show me empathy. What has liberated me from that hell has been an awareness and nurturing of deep and powerful empathy for myself. it takes the form of listening to me, understanding me; and helping me, i am my own compassionate hero. i am my own angel. One might misunderstand, and think that i am saying that by rescuing myself, i finally became independent from others ansbneed no one. But the opposite is true. I have become more able to depend upon others, in a healthy way, and allow them to depend upon me. i am open to other angels. i am still refining this, and coming to more awareness, continually. but it's a far cry from where i started, when i was young. Struggling to be kind to myself has been a pervasive feature of my life - severely abusive mother and absent father it's a familiar story. I am still in the process of trying to cultivate kindness to myself - it's really really hard when you feel yourself undeserving, I desperately need and want to cultivate empathy for myself but without a kind of baseline awareness of what this is I swing from avoidance of feelings (ie acting as the most resilient individual ever and building a fortress around myself) to some kind of over benevolent naiveity which makes me a target for abuse. I appreciate your posts Juniper thank you - and I also recognise the difficulty in telling the difference between "love" and the need to fill the painful emotional hole, a need that disguises itself as love, but in reality is anything but. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 8, 2018 22:14:24 GMT
In my mountaintop moments..I can actually love B whether he is with me or not....getting to those moments are where I struggle.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 23:40:03 GMT
i wonder, ocarina, is the feeling of being undeserving, the anxious side of FA? i first had a realization of deep care for myself in my early twenties, and even while i was unable to escape patterns and circumstances in my life for many years to come, my progress was motivated by that care and love for myself. it was in need of nurturing, but it was there and an inspiration to me even before i knew how to wield it effectively into change. it's complex. i think it is easier to cultivate when we really get in touch with our deep pain, because if empathy and compassion is present in us, i think our love for ourselves naturally is called forward, as it would be if we see someone else suffer? or if we see an animal suffer? suffering evokes compassion and the idea that the one i see suffering is worthy of my help. maybe if you don't know you are in deep pain, you don't see your worthiness either? i don't know if i am really making sense to anyone but me lol, and i apologize if not. so when i started to work through layers of pain in my twenties is when i first felt that outpouring of compassion, for myself. Now, i endured extremely dangerous and traumatic situations after that that burrowed me deeply into dissociation of severe PTSD. But at times i was able to access it. Are you able to access your love for yourself, and your belief that you are worthy, or is it absent? is it there but hides from you, and comes out again when coaxed? i am trying to understand what your experience of worthiness/unworthiness is. i have felt strongly for a long time; that i have my back. do you feel, that you have your own back? do you feel proud about having your own back? i see some differences i think, between FA and DA, that i am having trouble understanding. I know we are so complex aside from attachment, but i wonder if this is a recognizable difference between the two? |
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Post by leavethelighton on Jun 8, 2018 23:41:38 GMT
.... i am my own compassionate hero. i am my own angel. ... I have become more able to depend upon others, in a healthy way, and allow them to depend upon me. i am open to other angels. ...
You put things in very beautiful ways, Juniper.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 23:42:27 GMT
.... i am my own compassionate hero. i am my own angel. ... I have become more able to depend upon others, in a healthy way, and allow them to depend upon me. i am open to other angels. ...
You put things in very beautiful ways, Juniper.
thank you, compassionate. thank you very much for the kind words. 🌺 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 23:48:01 GMT
ocarina, i am sure as i write this that's was first opening to my deep pain that evoked feelings of empathy, worthiness, and love for myself. i was a solid chunk of vague numbness and hit a wall in my early twenties, when a crime against me brought me to therapy, and i first began to heal. one small step but i thought i was worth fighting for.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 23:57:34 GMT
In my mountaintop moments..I can actually love B whether he is with me or not....getting to those moments are where I struggle. of course real love is not just for the mountaintops, it's for the trenches also, and first we have to love ourselves in the trenches before we can love others there. |
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Post by ocarina on Jun 9, 2018 8:51:31 GMT
"Are you able to access your love for yourself, and your belief that you are worthy, or is it absent?
is it there but hides from you, and comes out again when coaxed?"
The truthful answer to this is that I find it difficult to feel love for myself - I am a perfectionist overacheiver and much of my self esteem is based on what I have done rather than an unconditional self love. It's really sad and horribly detrimental in relationships - I find it really difficult to feel another persons love for me even if I know that on paper it exists.
I am working on this bit by bit and it's helping - looking into the pain with compassion. The kind eyes post by Anne12 was helpful and I will do more of that. I have been severely avoidant in the past - pretty much textbook DA but as I have acknowledged feelings I think there's been a swing to more FA particularly since my last relationship with a severely DA partner - If I am honest I am finding it hard to let go of him (although on the surface you'd never know this) he was the only person who I have ever felt a real connection with - because he let the avoidant side of me be.
Thanks very much Juniper and others for your input - it really helps.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 11:48:40 GMT
ocarina, does it help you at all if somone you trust reasonably enough tells you that your self-love is already there, so you don't have to worry about it not being there? Say you were told to look for a piece of gold in the garden, and you would like to find the gold but weren't given a guarantee that it is there. You may start to dig around, or wistfully keep your eye out if you were gardening. With no certainty that it's there, it would be difficult to have heart enough to dig and dig, and each empty handful of dirt might bring you closer and closer to the conclusion that it isn't there, or if it is, maybe not possible to find. And, having not had the gold and made it this far, it would be easy perhaps to just continue to live without the gold. you've done it so far, its doable. But if someone you trust told you " ocarina, this is exciting, there is a sizeable piece of gold in your garden!! You have to dig a little but i am certain, beyond all doubt, that it is there. It's by the spinach plants, and deep but accessible. Go, find it!!! I'll even help you, i have time and some tools, we can even chat and have some fun while we dig! " This isn't too silly, it's about faith. That's the first thing you need, the faith that what you're looking for can be found. that makes ALL the difference in any of our endeavors. The second thing, is fellowship. I am asking, with the intent to encourage- Do you have faith in the inevitable fruitfulness of your quest?. We can have faith when we can with our reasonable minds observe that others have found a way to accomplish what we would like to accomplish. Indeed, those who accomplish, if they have a heart, love to encourage others because their love for themselves is so precious, they want to share it so others can have it. Do you have close friends and confidantes who love themselves well, and you can see it and feel it? If so, it would be important to be next to them and let them help you and encourage you.
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Post by ocarina on Jun 9, 2018 13:20:12 GMT
ocarina , does it help you at all if somone you trust reasonably enough tells you that your self-love is already there, so you don't have to worry about it not being there? Say you were told to look for a piece of gold in the garden, and you would like to find the gold but weren't given a guarantee that it is there. You may start to dig around, or wistfully keep your eye out if you were gardening. With no certainty that it's there, it would be difficult to have heart enough to dig and dig, and each empty handful of dirt might bring you closer and closer to the conclusion that it isn't there, or if it is, maybe not possible to find. And, having not had the gold and made it this far, it would be easy perhaps to just continue to live without the gold. you've done it so far, its doable. But if someone you trust told you " ocarina , this is exciting, there is a sizeable piece of gold in your garden!! You have to dig a little but i am certain, beyond all doubt, that it is there. It's by the spinach plants, and deep but accessible. Go, find it!!! I'll even help you, i have time and some tools, we can even chat and have some fun while we dig! " This isn't too silly, it's about faith. That's the first thing you need, the faith that what you're looking for can be found. that makes ALL the difference in any of our endeavors. The second thing, is fellowship. I am asking, with the intent to encourage- Do you have faith in the inevitable fruitfulness of your quest?. We can have faith when we can with our reasonable minds observe that others have found a way to accomplish what we would like to accomplish. Indeed, those who accomplish, if they have a heart, love to encourage others because their love for themselves is so precious, they want to share it so others can have it. Do you have close friends and confidantes who love themselves well, and you can see it and feel it? If so, it would be important to be next to them and let them help you and encourage you. The bizarre thing is that I look and others appear to believe that I am confident, successful and capable - part of the avoidant in me has made it difficult for the cracks to show - it's not something that I have cultivated on purpose but I certainly am uber self reliant and find shame very difficult to experience - the shame of perceived failure in particular. I do need to believe that love for myself needs uncovering rather than earning - in my time I have run marathons, climbed mountains, swam long distances, completed multiple degrees - and in the most part in an attempt to make myself feel better about myself - or to make others think better of me which in turn feeds my self estee,. Of course when things go wrong in life it feels to me often like a terrible and shameful hit and something I often don't share with others. I am the solid one who friends come to for support but I struggle to think of anyone in real life to whom I would feel confident to show the real deal as I am expressing it here. I do have a counsellor who I speak to monthly and with whom I have been able to be honest - this is perhaps something we should discuss. It seems to me that lack of feeling love towards myself is the very core of most of the pain in my life - my fear of failure, the near permenant exhaustion of trying to keep my show on the road all the time, taking on too much, over giving at work. It all adds up. Thank you Juniper yet again - you input is really wonderful. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 13:27:59 GMT
ocarina i really relate to what you've written. however, there is something you are missing. you'll have to take a risk. i too have always been the solid one, in whom people have confided, and sought some kind of refuge. they trusted me. those are the very people i began to show my cracks to. that made the relationships i already had, mutually beneficial. i honored their trust by extending some of my own. you won't be able to receive their love and tenderness until they see your deep need for it. that's how that works. you're probably a lot closer than you think to a breakthrough. you'll have to risk. you can make it a small risk, just show a small crack. but let someone help you fill it. that's what friends are for, and if there is one person you can begin to allow to be your friend then you are well on your way. it honors their capacity to love when you trust a little. it's actually the right thing to do for a friend, to trust them and tell them your secrets instead of only keeping theirs. it's an act of generosity to share your pain with a trusted friend, it helps people know they can love you and you are willing.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 9, 2018 13:32:45 GMT
I watched a TED talk recently where the speaker had severe dyslexia and what he did was carried around a rock as a symbol of that....and he used that as a way to broach the topic with people he felt closest to until he had accepted himself enough that he did not need the symbol anymore. Just a thought on how you might broach sharing a vulnerability. It may not fit exactly what you are looking to achieve but I thought of it as I read your posts. The full TED talk is below. m.youtube.com/watch?list=LLka8S87kIJeDW2m_ixp1ycA&v=bs93inbQPU0 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 13:36:37 GMT
@ ocarina, to throw some avoidant tough love and humor in here....
time to come out of the pain closet, who do you think you're kidding?
who do you think you are, some kind of special super human?
people aren't stupid.
you're isolating yourself and being stubborn and a bit unrealistic with all this avoidant crap.
also with the anxious crap.
just get real and get honest already.
i know it's because you're scared.... and that's obvious.
you think people don't see it?
you think they don't already see the cracks?
admit it and welcome yourself to the beauty of humanity.
there are people waiting to welcome you!
😍😂😘😘😘😘
that's all love, i promise. been there done that.
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