|
Post by leavethelighton on Jul 3, 2018 23:59:13 GMT
Being overly critical of others is said to be a "dismissive" thing. We're not supposed to want to "change people."
So.... how does one best ask for change by a person (in a household or something they do, etc.) without being "critical"? I don't think one can live with someone for years and years and never wish anything would be different, but I struggle with how to ask in a way that is helpful to long-term relationships.
Also, how do you know when the thing you wish would change valid to ask for and when it's somehow petty, immature, etc.?
What if it's something that you suspect is petty but you just can't get past being bothered by it? (This is not a real example, butlet's say you deeply hate an item of clothing your partner wears and it's a turn off when they wear it and you know that's petty but you just can't get yourself to not hate it, that sort of thing). Should you work harder to just accept the thing, or is there an okay way to ask for them to stop doing it?
Sometimes I also think I fall into the trap of not asking for something to change because I feel like it isn't my place to ask that or that I'm being unreasonable or immature or whatever, but then the wishing it were different gets to be too much and I end up expressing my unhappiness about it in unhelpful or even destructive ways.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 1:22:54 GMT
Being overly critical of others is said to be a "dismissive" thing. We're not supposed to want to "change people."
So.... how does one best ask for change by a person (in a household or something they do, etc.) without being "critical"? I don't think one can live with someone for years and years and never wish anything would be different, but I struggle with how to ask in a way that is helpful to long-term relationships.
Also, how do you know when the thing you wish would change valid to ask for and when it's somehow petty, immature, etc.?
What if it's something that you suspect is petty but you just can't get past being bothered by it? (This is not a real example, butlet's say you deeply hate an item of clothing your partner wears and it's a turn off when they wear it and you know that's petty but you just can't get yourself to not hate it, that sort of thing). Should you work harder to just accept the thing, or is there an okay way to ask for them to stop doing it?
Sometimes I also think I fall into the trap of not asking for something to change because I feel like it isn't my place to ask that or that I'm being unreasonable or immature or whatever, but then the wishing it were different gets to be too much and I end up expressing my unhappiness about it in unhelpful or even destructive ways.
i don't know if i agree that dismissives are "overly critical". I'm not sure what kind of issue you are mulling over, but i myself think it's normal and within bounds to have preferences and state them. there doesn't have to be anything critical about it. in the clothing example you gave (which isn't an area i would be likely to have a preference,unless it involved indecency or offensive odors) , i think it's fine to have a preference and state it. there doesn't have to be any value judgement involved. So, say you don't care for the article of clothing. "Babe, you know i love ya. I have to confess, when i see you wear the yellow and black zig zag sweater, i think of Charlie Brown. It's not that you're not pretty. it's that the sweater reminds me of a little bald dude. " I'm being humorous. But surely there is a way to voice a preference without being critical. Every adult knows there are articles of clothing which are flattering to some, unflattering on others. It's not trying to change someone to say so. Trying to change someone would entail some kind of repercussion to them not agreeing to your request. that's the thing. Say you'd like your wife to pitch the yellow and black zigzag sweater. But she loves it! Then at that point, her freedom to wear whatever the heck she wants prevails and you get to be a decent guy and suck it up. Accept it, and choose your battles. It comes down to boundaries, but also the freedom to have an opinion or a preference. And the ability to remember who you're talking to, and the care and respect they are worthy of. Bad: "That sweater makes you look like a fat bald dude named Charlie." "You look ugly in that sweater" "what a stupid sweater." There are many sweet and even humorous ways to express an opinion or a preference without being critical or demanding. It depends, really, on what kind of change you're looking for, though.
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Jul 4, 2018 5:02:30 GMT
I'm on the same page as Juniper. I'm not sure I am overly critical. I have not heard that as feedback from others. Actually I think I need to voice my preferences more and share what I enjoy and prefer. If anything, I have a tendency to evaluate after a date rather than give direct feedback.
For me I think it may just contribute to lack of enthusiasm about the guy.
I like a man to be reasonably well dressed and look appropriate for the occasion, but am open to different styles. I'd like to compliment more on the styles I enjoy seeing guys in, to maybe see them more often. But if I prefer the blue sweater that brings out his eyes and he feels happy and sunny in the yellow one, I see no need to discourage that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 13:45:06 GMT
i myself tend to very much be a "live and let live" person. i don't mind what others are doing much as long as i have lots of space around me, and my own personal space to do exactly as i please. i am particular about my preferences for myself. there's a reason for most of what i do, and i value my autonomy and my pfreedoms a lot. this is why i prefer to live alone and enjoy my own little habitat.
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Jul 4, 2018 17:41:01 GMT
To be honest, I think my impulse to walk away and create space do keep me from giving timely and contructive feedback.
What I would like to do is be more clear about what I like and what turns me off, without trying to control any outcomes. This gives the other person the information about what increases the chance of my enjoying his company more and more often and the freedom to act in it.
As it is right now, only the guy who just happens to be perfect as he is had the opportunity. Maybe he does not exist.
Maybe many guys do exist who are amazing for me. Yet have some annoying habits. But are more than willing to make tweaks. If only they had the chance.
Maybe I want to give those guys a chance.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 18:47:01 GMT
To be honest, I think my impulse to walk away and create space do keep me from giving timely and contructive feedback. What I would like to do is be more clear about what I like and what turns me off, without trying to control any outcomes. This gives the other person the information about what increases the chance of my enjoying his company more and more often and the freedom to act in it. As it is right now, only the guy who just happens to be perfect as he is had the opportunity. Maybe he does not exist. Maybe many guys do exist who are amazing for me. Yet have some annoying habits. But are more than willing to make tweaks. If only they had the chance. Maybe I want to give those guys a chance. being "picky" can be a defense, a habitual wall against ones own availability, and vulnerability. it could also be a kind of perfectionism projected outward , but reflecting hyper critical attitudes toward the self, i think. it may be as simple as catching oneself in the act of rejecting something about a person, and giving it grace or looking at it as a personal freedom to be exactly as is, without interference, the way we do enjoy personal freedom as independent creatures. There is the concept of personal freedom that feels like a gift when you give it to people. letting go of any expectation and allowing that person to be completely as is, and make a small sacrifice to accommodate it, can relieve discomfort quickly. letting go of that internal resistance to what is -!: embracing it, can sometimes make a quirk endearing, when you realize that is the unique fingerprint of the individual. It's that generosity, that grace. i employed that with my previous partner and it made me happy, and it made him happy as well.
|
|
|
Post by ocarina on Jul 4, 2018 21:38:52 GMT
To be honest, I think my impulse to walk away and create space do keep me from giving timely and contructive feedback. What I would like to do is be more clear about what I like and what turns me off, without trying to control any outcomes. This gives the other person the information about what increases the chance of my enjoying his company more and more often and the freedom to act in it. As it is right now, only the guy who just happens to be perfect as he is had the opportunity. Maybe he does not exist. Maybe many guys do exist who are amazing for me. Yet have some annoying habits. But are more than willing to make tweaks. If only they had the chance. Maybe I want to give those guys a chance. being "picky" can be a defense, a habitual wall against ones own availability, and vulnerability. it could also be a kind of perfectionism projected outward , but reflecting hyper critical attitudes toward the self, i think. it may be as simple as catching oneself in the act of rejecting something about a person, and giving it grace or looking at it as a personal freedom to be exactly as is, without interference, the way we do enjoy personal freedom as independent creatures. There is the concept of personal freedom that feels like a gift when you give it to people. letting go of any expectation and allowing that person to be completely as is, and make a small sacrifice to accommodate it, can relieve discomfort quickly. letting go of that internal resistance to what is -!: embracing it, can sometimes make a quirk endearing, when you realize that is the unique fingerprint of the individual. It's that generosity, that grace. i employed that with my previous partner and it made me happy, and it made him happy as well. I really like your answer here Juniper. I too am not sure that being overly critical is a dismissive trait - but whatever attachment style, asking for what we need or want is important to maintain a balanced relationship - this is not the same as criticising, it's simply being clear about our needs and expressing them openly. With this in mind, when asking, it becomes about us - so wording is important. Acceptance is a real gift I agree - but I also believe that having firm boundaries where they matter is important and when they are breached being able to state a point and then walk away if change doesn't happen is vital. One ask needs to be enough - any more than one on the same subject and you're becoming a critical nag - and at this point again it's our own responsibility to decide whether to really let go of the behaviour that's bothering you and move forward with ease, or make a decision that this is a deal breaker and move on. The little things that we want to change - dress sense, taste in music, etc etc, in my eyes are reflections of our own need to control and order and as such our dislike for them needs to be seen as a reflection of our own psychology rather than a flaw in our significant other. Recognising that there's no such thing as "the one" is an important step in growing up - as is our ability to accept others unconditionally, to ask for what we need and to walk away when our core values and needs are not being honoured.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 21:50:56 GMT
agree on all points, ocarina. and, without compatibility in core values, i won't be in close enough proximity to ask for any needs being met. To me, the progression is something like this: boundaries help me choose a suitable relationship, one with values aligned. no need to constantly assert and defend boundaries. the foundation is there. with values aligned, a good deal of grace and generosity goes toward acceptance of quirks. my own need for personal space doesn't hamper emotional availability- i can balance these well and enjoy it. the right partner for me will allow me my freedom as well, will be able to reciprocate the freedom i extend. i believe in this way of being, for me. it's aligned with who i authentically am.
|
|
|
Post by leavethelighton on Jul 5, 2018 23:55:01 GMT
Interesting that most of the responders here see this as a non-issue. I bring this topic up because of this sort of thing in attachment style literature: "Typically as the relationship ages, avoidants will begin to find fault and focus on petty shortcomings of their partner." -- Jeb Kinnison, jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-dismissive-avoidant/Maybe this is more of an issue further into a relationship than many DA people tend to even get? But then some like Kinnison also suggest it as a common reason why DA people break up with others. In any case, Juniper, I think you make a good point about using humor and also about the tendency of some people to project their own shortcoming onto others, and Ocarina makes a good point about the concept of "one ask" needs to be enough. I think acceptance is a tricky concept. Constantly having to strive to feel "acceptance" towards another can get in the way of attraction and desire. Early on in a relationship it is easy to overlook things that get in the way of attraction and desire, later on in a relationship it can be more difficult. On the other hand, if one is going to be in a long-term relationship (marriagelike) then what one means by "attraction" may need to also change over time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 0:04:58 GMT
Interesting that most of the responders here see this as a non-issue. I bring this topic up because of this sort of thing in attachment style literature: "Typically as the relationship ages, avoidants will begin to find fault and focus on petty shortcomings of their partner." -- Jeb Kinnison, jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-dismissive-avoidant/Maybe this is more of an issue further into a relationship than many DA people tend to even get? But then some like Kinnison also suggest it as a common reason why DA people break up with others. In any case, Juniper, I think you make a good point about using humor and also about the tendency of some people to project their own shortcoming onto others, and Ocarina makes a good point about the concept of "one ask" needs to be enough. I think acceptance is a tricky concept. Constantly having to strive to feel "acceptance" towards another can get in the way of attraction and desire. Early on in a relationship it is easy to overlook things that get in the way of attraction and desire, later on in a relationship it can be more difficult. On the other hand, if one is going to be in a long-term relationship (marriagelike) then what one means by "attraction" may need to also change over time. for me ,as avoidant, i don't identify with the issue perhaps because i don't cohabit, and don't intend to. in my opinion, the issue of focusing on petty shortcomings is not at all an avoidant one, it spans all attachment types that cohabit. i don't look to the literature as an authority, either, unless it's something i can identify in myself and other actual dismissives i know. The reason is that so many experts on so many topics publish so much literature and even studies that draw conclusions that are disproven by yet more experts and studies over time, as more is learned and understood. the understanding evolves, and many things are revised over time. i think a lot of the literature on Dismissives is lacking! and, geared toward the male gender. obviously, females have some differing tendencies innately, as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 0:17:24 GMT
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Jul 6, 2018 10:16:25 GMT
I think acceptance is a tricky concept. Constantly having to strive to feel "acceptance" towards another can get in the way of attraction and desire. Early on in a relationship it is easy to overlook things that get in the way of attraction and desire, later on in a relationship it can be more difficult. On the other hand, if one is going to be in a long-term relationship (marriagelike) then what one means by "attraction" may need to also change over time. Desire and intimacy are two completely different things. Both are helpful in a love relationship, but the things that create desire include distance, polarity and mystery. Those actually decrease comfort and intimacy. It is rare to have both. Especially in the long run.
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Jul 6, 2018 10:44:02 GMT
for me ,as avoidant, i don't identify with the issue perhaps because i don't cohabit, and don't intend to. in my opinion, the issue of focusing on petty shortcomings is not at all an avoidant one, it spans all attachment types that cohabit. Cohabiting is often seen as the default state of a romantic relationship, because there used to be many pressures to be married. In the past, many marriages were just expected to be business relationships, friendships or brother sister relationships. People expected to have a spouse they could tolerate. Most of them were annoyed with their spouse, but divorce was not a real option even aside from religion. Many sitcoms are about couples who complain without end yet stay together. When it is hard to run a farm and raise children on one´s own, marriages are stable. Or one needed to marry and have heirs to continue a dynasty. Or women who needed to marry just to survive and stay out of prostitution. But those drives have nothing to do with romance, depth and desire. Nor do they fit in modern life. Nor do they bring happiness beyond the base of Maslov´s pyramid. i don't look to the literature as an authority, either, unless it's something i can identify in myself and other actual dismissives i know. The reason is that so many experts on so many topics publish so much literature and even studies that draw conclusions that are disproven by yet more experts and studies over time, as more is learned and understood. the understanding evolves, and many things are revised over time. i think a lot of the literature on Dismissives is lacking! and, geared toward the male gender. obviously, females have some differing tendencies innately, as well. The overwhelming majority of dismissives that are seen by therapists are dismissive husbands dragged into therapy by anxious wives. If all you offer is therapy to save marriages or cohabiting relationships, you will not see: Happily married dismissives. (With secure or avoidant spouse) Single dismissives Living apart together dismissives Most of the perspectives being gender biased `women are clingy` and ´men need to withdraw´ also pushes female dismissives out of your practice. Things are much better than 5, 10 or 20 years ago, but many books regurgitate old concepts.
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Jul 6, 2018 11:16:15 GMT
Unless you have the exact same habits or outsource a ton of cleaning work, it is inevitable to have some irritations in married life. There is deep stuff like values, and core beliefs that must simply be compatible. Then, there are habits that can not easily be changed: How often one changes the sheets, smoking, diet, social life. Then, there are easily adjusted and also easily acceptable things like the ugly sweater. Mostly I expect this to be about the second category. What I see is that most cohabiting couples have at least one issue here. Some adjustments take place, some compromise but it never ends in full satisfaction. My aunt smokes and my uncle hates it. she can´t quit but smokes in the shed. My friend is a neatnik and her live in boyfriend is happy in a mess. He fully adjusted his hygiene, but when it comes to keeping a house tidy, he takes many a shortcut. My other friend complains about her boyfriend loving junk food. He will eat well when she cooks it but on his turn to cook there is more often pizza, burgers. I think striving for decent compatibility in this category is really helpful, but I would also expect to deal with some differences. When we see someone twice a week, we may not always be on our best behaviour but we can be more different while still in harmony, plus desire stays stronger with less effort. None of the housework issues really matter; if we go over to a man´s house for dinner, it hardly matters if he does the dishes right away or in 3 days as we will be in our own house. Nor does it matter if he has friends over almost every day because we have peace and quiet at home. Or if we get drunk every weekend, he will not see us hung over. Nor will he care if our bedroom floor has a rug of dirty panties. The choice to cohabit or live apart is a beautiful one to have, each has benefits.
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Jul 6, 2018 11:32:58 GMT
I always liked the idea of one house but different spaces for each person....not just a man cave....but separate bedrooms/bathrooms....to allow partners flexibility and options. For instance...if I am sick..why should my partner have to have his sleep impacted. 🙂
|
|