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Post by goldilocks on Jul 31, 2018 16:17:53 GMT
Yes, this is the thing isn't it. When we get activated with all the drama stuff in our love lives, no matter our insecure attachment type, its not actual LOVE we are feeling. It's instead a chemical reaction in our brain going haywire based on the replaying of our old childhood dramas. The best thing my therapist ever asked me was "what is love to you?". I thought about it and said it was the feelings I felt between my son and I. The unconditional and completely natural bond we have. There is no drama there. It's beautiful and lovely and safe and comforting to us both. We feel at one with each other. Then she asked if I felt that same bond in any of my love relationships. I didn't. What I equated as passion and excitement and yearning and longing in my love life isn't actually love. It's just my childhood-parental attachment issues being triggered. This helped me a lot and helped soften a lot of the intense longings I have towards my ex gf. I never loved her really, and she never really loved me. We just triggered each other, that's all. Like you say, passion isn't love. It's merely a consequence of the damage in our psyche from wounds from decades ago that's been reactivated all over again. I now know I have never actually been in love my entire adult life, and that's a little sad for me to know that at my age. Joan, you are the same. You may not realise it, but this abusive guy you are with, you don't actually love him. You never have and never will. We all need to separate our attachment triggers with what we perceive to be actual love. Knowing its not actually love is so liberating. But yes, also a little saddening to realise. yes! separating that out with conscious awareness, continually, through triggers and non-triggers, is the key to being able to untangle all the knots and override the conditioning. has been for me anyway. it's a commitment to awareness that grows as you practice it. if you stay swirling around the drain saying the same things to yourself over and over, you'll go down the drain. we actually have to fight the conditioning with awareness and truth, or we won't change it. it's work. For me it has been important to distinguish the perceptions on a mental, physical, emotional and spiritual level. Actually noting everything I feel and comparing to other connections. Caring for someone, a very fundamental form of love, is represented as mentally wishing the other person well. (Loving kindness meditations has helped me here.) On a physical level it feels soft and warm. Emotionally, like a warm empathy that actually curbs jealous and vengeful feeling should any disagreements take place. I hurt when he suffers and smile when he triumphs. We are on one side, even if he is annoying in te moment. Spiritually it feels like a flow of energy from heart to heart. Infatuation is not love but desire, horniness and sexual longing. Mentally we want to have the person, we may obsess about him, thinking again and again of how it would be to become one with this person, sinking into lust and pleasure. This does not mean we like him, but we really want him. Physically, we feel aroused and in extreme cases physical tension, there is hot and cold. Emotionally, we covet him, long for him and enter the rollercoaster of passion and pleasure and pain. We are on opposite sides and the tension between us is tangible. Spiritually it feels like a sacral bond from loin to loin. . |
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Post by goldilocks on Jul 31, 2018 21:32:19 GMT
There is nothing wrong with lust by the way. Only when we do not own it, we find that it owns us and we mistake it for love. That's infatuation.
When we see lust as lust, we do not look for signs of it being meant to be, this being our One True Love that we must have at any cost.
We accept that we are humans who can be aroused by qualities that have nothing to do with character and compatibility.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 8:29:54 GMT
Yes - loving kindness mindfulness exercises are a great way of really understanding what love is and understanding the true feeling.
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joan
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Post by joan on Aug 3, 2018 7:13:55 GMT
joan , no, it isn't easy. we all have our conditioning to overcome. if you spend all that time trying to stay in the relationship by rationalizing, minimizing, and strategizing, you probably aren't taking much time for the exercises and practices that will enable you to leave. Just keep that in mind, you are choosing your future by what you are doing and investing in today. if you invest in fantasy and denial, you'll feel the same or worse in time instead of more empowered. if you're avoiding your own pain by allowing him to hurt you, so you can focus on that instead of your original problems, nothing will be solved and the hope you have to eventually be free isn't based on actions taken to achieve it. i think that can be a treacherous trap, having hope either to be able to leave the relationship or that it will magically get more tolerable.... neither outcome is supported by reality when you're putting so much energy into denial of how things really are. just food for thought. we all have to work hard to change patterns, me included. Juniper I hear you on wasting time by focusing on him and the relationship instead of focusing on myself and my issues. I've been pushing myself to do that more. It's helped take the anxiety away and feeling better. I can't fix him only myself. After you and others on here pointed out his behavior is more of that of a narcissist then DA I began to read more about covert narcissists. He didn't necessarily fit the behaviors of an overt narcissist but he's definitely ticked off all the boxes of a covert narcissist. Now I'm not falling into this rabbit hole of obsessing over his issues, but it's pretty helpful to understand who he is so I can at least understand the reality of what I'm dealing with right now. Knowing this is helping me understand the utter confusion I've felt within this relationship. I'm coming to terms with the fact that he won't ever love me and will abandon me and it will be with little to no empathy. Nothing personal, it's just his issues. I'm trying to prepare myself for that. I've sensed that happening, but thought I could somehow change the outcome. Now I'm becoming more aware of the fact that I can't. Nothing I do will change him, so hopefully that reinforces my efforts on solely focusing on myself. |
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joan
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Post by joan on Aug 3, 2018 7:49:56 GMT
I think what all your therapists have in common is to turn the focus back on yourself and off of your partner. Perhaps a good starting point is look into why you associate drama with passion/love? Because, by your own admission, those types of relationships are usually not the ones that are "mutual" or "sustainable". I don't know if I ever necessarily associated love with drama. It was the drama and insecurity a person would stir in me that made me feel attracted and passionate about them. I question if I've ever been in love since I struggle to love myself. With my secure ex I felt attracted to him and passionate about our relationship when I felt like there was something unattainable about him. I know it sounds horrible but when I felt like I had him, and there was nothing to chase anymore my attraction began to die. If I find someone attractive and their behavior causes me to feel insecure I'm hooked. I am no victim that's for sure. |
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joan
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Post by joan on Aug 3, 2018 7:57:24 GMT
There is nothing wrong with lust by the way. Only when we do not own it, we find that it owns us and we mistake it for love. That's infatuation. When we see lust as lust, we do not look for signs of it being meant to be, this being our One True Love that we must have at any cost. We accept that we are humans who can be aroused by qualities that have nothing to do with character and compatibility. I agree with you Goldilocks. I know that what I feel for the DA I'm seeing is not love, but lust and infatuation. I made the mistake of thinking he was the one, we were soulmates and totally romanticizing what we had. I'm coming to the realization that it's not only just physical and mental attraction, but his toxic behavior that triggers the negative beliefs I have about myself. I was already an open wound, he was just the salt. |
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joan
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Post by joan on Aug 3, 2018 8:16:27 GMT
Re this point: "I was married for 15 years to who I believe was mostly secure. Me being an AP in hindsight I realize I brought a lot of drama and insecurity into the marriage. When I began to feel safe, and no longer feared abandonment the "passion" or love I felt for him seemed to die. I felt empty, bored and listless. There was no more drama. I thought I wanted security, trust and stability but when I began to really feel I had it I felt depressed." Is this really that common with AP/codependent types? Is every relationship they feel like this? Either boring and passionlees (with a secure) or unfuflilling and dangerous (with a toxic/narc/avoidant type)? Brokenbiscuit - I don't know if it's common. During our marriage I didn't realize he was a secure. I knew nothing of attachment styles back then. For the first 8 years of our marriage I was so caught up in my own insecure thoughts and fears I created a ton of drama that was totally unnecessary. I couldn't believe that he wouldn't cheat on me or abandon me so I constantly threatened to leave him over my irrational insecurities. It wasn't all bad though. It also felt good to feel safe, have the consistency and reassurance. When I started to trust him more and not live in this constant state of fear I was able to go out into the world with more confidence. I was able to focus on other aspects of my life like work, family and hobbies. It was everything these books tell you being with a secure is like. For a long time it was great. There is more to the story. We had other issues, so I won't fully blame our attachment style as the cause of my feelings of boredom and losing attraction. I believe it played a part though. No longer feeling like I had to work so hard to keep his love, and getting this unconditional type of love from him meant no more of the AP behaviors and so I didn't know what to do with myself. I'm still trying to make sense of this all. I know if I don't figure it out or work towards changing if I end up with a secure it will end in the same way or I'll keep chasing toxic relationships. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 10:57:59 GMT
joan , no, it isn't easy. we all have our conditioning to overcome. if you spend all that time trying to stay in the relationship by rationalizing, minimizing, and strategizing, you probably aren't taking much time for the exercises and practices that will enable you to leave. Just keep that in mind, you are choosing your future by what you are doing and investing in today. if you invest in fantasy and denial, you'll feel the same or worse in time instead of more empowered. if you're avoiding your own pain by allowing him to hurt you, so you can focus on that instead of your original problems, nothing will be solved and the hope you have to eventually be free isn't based on actions taken to achieve it. i think that can be a treacherous trap, having hope either to be able to leave the relationship or that it will magically get more tolerable.... neither outcome is supported by reality when you're putting so much energy into denial of how things really are. just food for thought. we all have to work hard to change patterns, me included. Juniper I hear you on wasting time by focusing on him and the relationship instead of focusing on myself and my issues. I've been pushing myself to do that more. It's helped take the anxiety away and feeling better. I can't fix him only myself. After you and others on here pointed out his behavior is more of that of a narcissist then DA I began to read more about covert narcissists. He didn't necessarily fit the behaviors of an overt narcissist but he's definitely ticked off all the boxes of a covert narcissist. Now I'm not falling into this rabbit hole of obsessing over his issues, but it's pretty helpful to understand who he is so I can at least understand the reality of what I'm dealing with right now. Knowing this is helping me understand the utter confusion I've felt within this relationship. I'm coming to terms with the fact that he won't ever love me and will abandon me and it will be with little to no empathy. Nothing personal, it's just his issues. I'm trying to prepare myself for that. I've sensed that happening, but thought I could somehow change the outcome. Now I'm becoming more aware of the fact that I can't. Nothing I do will change him, so hopefully that reinforces my efforts on solely focusing on myself. ah, covert narcissist. it does help to understand the limitations of a narcissist because hope for a loving relationship is truly misguided. Just keep turning your eyes back to you. when you have suffered enough, you'll go. it tends to wear you down worse and worse, and when you get sick of your own dysfunction in this you'll change direction. It may be helpful to check out Melanie Tonia Evans on the net! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 15:45:06 GMT
Yes, this is the thing isn't it. When we get activated with all the drama stuff in our love lives, no matter our insecure attachment type, its not actual LOVE we are feeling. It's instead a chemical reaction in our brain going haywire based on the replaying of our old childhood dramas. The best thing my therapist ever asked me was "what is love to you?". I thought about it and said it was the feelings I felt between my son and I. The unconditional and completely natural bond we have. There is no drama there. It's beautiful and lovely and safe and comforting to us both. We feel at one with each other. Then she asked if I felt that same bond in any of my love relationships. I didn't. What I equated as passion and excitement and yearning and longing in my love life isn't actually love. It's just my childhood-parental attachment issues being triggered. This helped me a lot and helped soften a lot of the intense longings I have towards my ex gf. I never loved her really, and she never really loved me. We just triggered each other, that's all. Like you say, passion isn't love. It's merely a consequence of the damage in our psyche from wounds from decades ago that's been reactivated all over again. I now know I have never actually been in love my entire adult life, and that's a little sad for me to know that at my age. Joan, you are the same. You may not realise it, but this abusive guy you are with, you don't actually love him. You never have and never will. We all need to separate our attachment triggers with what we perceive to be actual love. Knowing its not actually love is so liberating. But yes, also a little saddening to realise. , responding to your post in the FA section, it's good to also grasp the inner workings of the dynamic if there are attachment issues involved when deciding how or if to proceed. It can sound special on the outside for her to be into you- but if she is FA then what's going on in the inside is likely to disappoint any expectations for long term love, without deep transformation. |
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Post by brokenbiscuit on Aug 3, 2018 16:29:24 GMT
Yes very much so. Which is why I like the term Favorite Person rather than something more love-related like soul mate or twin flame
Because as a Favorite Person you become the object of our desire, not because you are particularly great or good for us within a relationship, but because you remind us so much of that parent who neglected us when we were a child.
And like you say, that isn't love. It's a kind of "fake love". A odd reenactment of our own personal link between child and mother come to fruition in adult times
I remember my therapist asking me to describe my mother... So I came out with it all... "a wonderful caring empathetic lovely person who loved us kids dearly and would show it, never abusive directly to us, BUT she was also a manic depressive, an addict, often made threats of leaving that she wouldn't follow through with, history of failed suicide attempts (as a child I found her ODed), wild emotional instability which terrified me and my sisters sometimes, etc"
Then my therapist said "now describe your ex who you are besotted with"
My face: ah shit
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 16:40:51 GMT
Yes very much so. Which is why I like the term Favorite Person rather than something more love-related like soul mate or twin flame Because as a Favorite Person you become the object of our desire, not because you are particularly great or good for us within a relationship, but because you remind us so much of that parent who neglected us when we were a child. And like you say, that isn't love. It's a kind of "fake love". A odd reenactment of our own personal link between child and mother come to fruition in adult times I remember my therapist asking me to describe my mother... So I came out with it all... "a wonderful caring empathetic lovely person who loved us kids dearly and would show it, never abusive directly to us, BUT she was also a manic depressive, an addict, often made threats of leaving that she wouldn't follow through with, history of failed suicide attempts (as a child I found her ODed), wild emotional instability which terrified me and my sisters sometimes, etc" Then my therapist said "now describe your ex who you are besotted with" My face: ah shit right? its my honest opinion that any person confronted with this kind of an inside perspective and accepts the challenge, and proceeds to try to reform themselves or their potential attachment injured "partner" in hopes of a stable, fulfilling committed relationship, is definitely hooked by their own internal drama which mirrors that of their newfound Attachment Object. There is no wisdom in romanticizing this kind of drama and acting out, but it's perpetuated in my culture. The tragic "love" that comes good in the end. The impossible woman or man who finally is tamed by undying devotion. When there is the degree of blatant acting out as seen in the new inquiries on the boards, all that can be done is frank sharing and returning to our own deep processes to move beyond our own issues. Its tough stuff. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 16:49:32 GMT
it would be cool to have an emoji like this 😬 that is a link to Jeb's attachment type test so we could easily recommend self evaluation in in the interest of promoting the real answer to any inquiry regarding an attachment injured mate!
I say it in jest but the suffering is real and it takes what it takes to learn and grow but i would have loved to have been somehow able to spare myself some of the pain this has caused me.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 3, 2018 23:25:49 GMT
Yes very much so. Which is why I like the term Favorite Person rather than something more love-related like soul mate or twin flame Because as a Favorite Person you become the object of our desire, not because you are particularly great or good for us within a relationship, but because you remind us so much of that parent who neglected us when we were a child. And like you say, that isn't love. It's a kind of "fake love". A odd reenactment of our own personal link between child and mother come to fruition in adult times I remember my therapist asking me to describe my mother... So I came out with it all... "a wonderful caring empathetic lovely person who loved us kids dearly and would show it, never abusive directly to us, BUT she was also a manic depressive, an addict, often made threats of leaving that she wouldn't follow through with, history of failed suicide attempts (as a child I found her ODed), wild emotional instability which terrified me and my sisters sometimes, etc" Then my therapist said "now describe your ex who you are besotted with" My face: ah shit It is interesting...the guy I saw loves his mom..it is his dad who was the cause of his wounding. I wonder in that case whether he would look for someone who was more like his dad. |
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