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Post by kibbins on Aug 30, 2018 6:05:54 GMT
Was seeing a guy I believe to be DA for the last 6 months. Things I noticed about him: -Cannot handle sleepovers, leaves before its time to sleep or asks me to leave, even if right after sex. -Never reaches out after an argument. Also said he missed his ex once but refused to reach out because "has weird boundaries about that stuff". -Told me he assumed I was going to have sex with someone else and that assuming it would happen made him unable to get hurt. -Was never willing to put a bf/gf label on us although we were supposed to be sexually exclusive since he is "scared of STDs". Said he had "become gun shy as he got older re: commitment unless it felt more certain and had become more of a whack job as he got older" -Workaholic/wrapped up in his work -Goes to a therapist but said he talks to his therapist about work since that's what's important -Low work satisfaction/constantly talking about wanting diff career -Despised that his ex made him take on "caretaker" traits. -Doesn't talk about problems w friends/ acts a bit fake. Says he has 5 diff personalities. -Had had one serious relationship, 2 yrs long. Said he had never been happy with someone. He is 33. -I never felt like a priority whatsoever. Put his job/friends before me consistently. Did nothing for my bday. -Uses sarcasm constantly -Def feel like he devalued me many times in his mind -Was unable to include me in plans w his friends. Also did not want to meet mine. Never did. -Watches a lot of porn and talked about sex a lot and had been on sex apps. YET: he was unable to have sex w me for 3 months which he said was bc he was scared of STDs. Yet he said he only liked having sex with people he had a connection with (?). Did seem to check out a bit during sex -His parents were not really present in childhood esp dad, and mom was cold. WHEN I REALIZED HE WAS AVOIDANT: I sent him a few pages from the Jeb Kinnison book. The first 3 pages were qualities of a secure. His response was basically annoyed, and said re: the secure traits: "thats not me. you should find someone you dont want to change." and that his therapist said I shouldn't be "psychoanalyzing" him. I tried to explain better communication and stuff like that were good goals to work towards and he reluctantly agreed about the communication part but not the rest.  ?? Like, I don't even know how to explain to him how aiming to be secure is what will achieve a healthy relationship. He's just making it sound like I'm this monster trying to make him be something else and using his therapist as backup that I'm in the wrong. I'm so tired yet still have feelings for this person and don't even know what to do anymore. We aren't even talking right now bc he was rude the other night when he basically ran out of my house as a "goodbye" after not seeing each other for a week and I wrote "I'm done" (never said that before) so I am sure I won't hear from him, but for me, even if it is ending, I will want to have a closure convo or talk about how I can't continue unless he at least tries to be less DA. This is wearing on me, and he's making it into this thing about us being incompatible/my needs, and not anything wrong w him.. I am more than willing to take responsibility for any problems I am bringing to the "relationship".. Btw, I am mostly secure/have had secure healthy relationships of which I am still friends w the people but this has definitely activated AP in me. |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 30, 2018 6:28:26 GMT
You can't change someone who isn't interested in it. Being secure is the goal for people who prioritize healthier relationships, but not everyone does. He does not at this time, which means he's right and you are incompatible.
Whether or not your approach was a little heavy-handed, ultimately you communicated your needs and he said he's not interested in meeting them. That doesn't make you a monster at all, but it does mean you've said your piece once, he knows, now you walk away. He sounds like he likes to be surrounded by enablers (ie his therapist who just talks to him about work) and is too comfortable to want to dig further into his issues at this time. And that is his decision to make, not yours, so the therapist is right in that respect.
It may help to remember that these attachment styles develop in response to deep wounds, and not everyone feels they have the strength to confront theirs. So even the idea of intimate feedback like that may make the person incredibly defensive, so it can be tricky. That isn't your fault, but it's why where people are in their process has to be respected, even if it's not where you ideally hope they'll be.
I'm sorry you ended up in a painful and mismatched situation. He gave you many, many red flags of behavior you weren't comfortable with and no desire to change. Once you've closed things out with him, it may be a good time to look inward and consider, is there a reason you stuck around for as long as you did? Was it just that you'd never been in a situation like that before and it took your head a while to catch up with your emotions, or is there something else that's kicking up your anxiety and tolerance for a mismatch?
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Post by kibbins on Aug 30, 2018 8:07:56 GMT
What kept me for 6 months was the connection we had. We actually have an unusually similar way of thinking, and humor. We would text literally all day long and not run out of things to say. We're both pretty weird and have similar social anxieties (he's worse). At times, he was sweet. He would say something like "was thinking this morning how much I like you  " and sometimes (but not seriously) say stuff like "when we are married should we open a *insert joke restaurant/buy a container home/have lots of dancing at our wedding/adopt etc." He left me flowers once at my door. He went to therapy once to "see if he could be the partner I needed" but that was just when the problems were with his lack of spontaneity with planning hangouts. Later when I pointed out the avoidant stuff it seems like he might have just given up. Overall, he is respectful. The spending time in 2 hr timeslots was the first thing I noticed, then later started noticing the rest. And he once agreed to go to couples therapy with me but then we didn't talk about it again. He left me out of a lot of things after that that made things super strained and i feel like as time went on perhaps he respected me less when I was too available. Who knows. There's a lot. It will take me a bit to get over this, i really liked him. And yes I need to look into my AP stuff, not happy I was attracted to this... |
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Post by lilyg on Aug 30, 2018 10:52:20 GMT
It's sad when you have a connection and fun with someone and you cannot make a relationship progress, I'm sorry for you! But it seems like you want something more that he can offer, and you want a healthy relationship (good for you!) that he cannot deliver, or doesn't want to. We cannot make someone change for us. He has to be the one to get to a place in which he accepts what's going on, if he's happy or not with his life and to start implementing changes. You told him about attachment styles, he does not want to change right now. I know it's hard when you love someone, but I advice you to move on if he's not meeting you basic standards of having a relationship (I guess he isn't). A relationship is a beautiful thing in which you and your partner can grow and become better together, but both of you have to be willing to take that step and be humble about it. Take care |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 11:24:00 GMT
welcome to the boards. i'm earned secure DA, i get where he's coming from, and it sounds like he has really been honest with you. it's always very strange for me to read paragraphs and paragraphs describing behaviors that were undesirable , and then get to the end and read, "I really liked him." there may have been a connection but it wasn't based on you appreciating and accepting him as he is. at any rate, here is a similar thread. There is an article on AP included by the original poster that you might gain some insight from. jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1290/da-fa-narcissistic |
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Post by epicgum on Aug 30, 2018 12:46:51 GMT
Was seeing a guy I believe to be DA for the last 6 months. Things I noticed about him: -Cannot handle sleepovers, leaves before its time to sleep or asks me to leave, even if right after sex. -Never reaches out after an argument. Also said he missed his ex once but refused to reach out because "has weird boundaries about that stuff". -Told me he assumed I was going to have sex with someone else and that assuming it would happen made him unable to get hurt. -Was never willing to put a bf/gf label on us although we were supposed to be sexually exclusive since he is "scared of STDs". Said he had "become gun shy as he got older re: commitment unless it felt more certain and had become more of a whack job as he got older" -Workaholic/wrapped up in his work -Goes to a therapist but said he talks to his therapist about work since that's what's important -Low work satisfaction/constantly talking about wanting diff career -Despised that his ex made him take on "caretaker" traits. -Doesn't talk about problems w friends/ acts a bit fake. Says he has 5 diff personalities. -Had had one serious relationship, 2 yrs long. Said he had never been happy with someone. He is 33. -I never felt like a priority whatsoever. Put his job/friends before me consistently. Did nothing for my bday. -Uses sarcasm constantly -Def feel like he devalued me many times in his mind -Was unable to include me in plans w his friends. Also did not want to meet mine. Never did. -Watches a lot of porn and talked about sex a lot and had been on sex apps. YET: he was unable to have sex w me for 3 months which he said was bc he was scared of STDs. Yet he said he only liked having sex with people he had a connection with (?). Did seem to check out a bit during sex -His parents were not really present in childhood esp dad, and mom was cold. WHEN I REALIZED HE WAS AVOIDANT: I sent him a few pages from the Jeb Kinnison book. The first 3 pages were qualities of a secure. His response was basically annoyed, and said re: the secure traits: "thats not me. you should find someone you dont want to change." and that his therapist said I shouldn't be "psychoanalyzing" him. I tried to explain better communication and stuff like that were good goals to work towards and he reluctantly agreed about the communication part but not the rest. ?? Like, I don't even know how to explain to him how aiming to be secure is what will achieve a healthy relationship. He's just making it sound like I'm this monster trying to make him be something else and using his therapist as backup that I'm in the wrong. I'm so tired yet still have feelings for this person and don't even know what to do anymore. We aren't even talking right now bc he was rude the other night when he basically ran out of my house as a "goodbye" after not seeing each other for a week and I wrote "I'm done" (never said that before) so I am sure I won't hear from him, but for me, even if it is ending, I will want to have a closure convo or talk about how I can't continue unless he at least tries to be less DA. This is wearing on me, and he's making it into this thing about us being incompatible/my needs, and not anything wrong w him.. I am more than willing to take responsibility for any problems I am bringing to the "relationship".. Btw, I am mostly secure/have had secure healthy relationships of which I am still friends w the people but this has definitely activated AP in me. Yeah as a possible FA....I can relate to many many of these things... do you have any specific questions av out any of it? |
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Post by goldilocks on Aug 30, 2018 17:27:41 GMT
You have a list of 16 traits/behaviours of his that you want him to change. You also want him to go to couples therapy with you. And you sent him a few pages with qualities you would like him to adopt. Just imagine if a guy has a list of things about you that he wanted you to change. I have not got the energy to write 15 items but imagine this list: - Grow out your hair
- Lose 20 pounds
- Take yoga classes
- Learn to cook Indian food
- Go to a personal trainer with him twice a week
How much would you feel liked, accepted and loved?
Would you entertain the thought of giving up?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 17:36:49 GMT
You have a list of 16 traits/behaviours of his that you want him to change. You also want him to go to couples therapy with you. And you sent him a few pages with qualities you would like him to adopt. Just imagine if a guy has a list of things about you that he wanted you to change. I have not got the energy to write 15 items but imagine this list: - Grow out your hair
- Lose 20 pounds
- Take yoga classes
- Learn to cook Indian food
- Go to a personal trainer with him twice a week
How much would you feel liked, accepted and loved?
Would you entertain the thought of giving up?
i was just reading this post again and i felt the same way. i mean, he doesn't want what OP wants, and it's like she feel entitled to what SHE wants from him. Yeah, turn the tables- i bet that wouldn't go over well. |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 30, 2018 18:14:23 GMT
I didn't read it that way. I read it as genuine surprise that everyone's default isn't to want to aspire to be secure, and that's what they all define as healthy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 18:31:07 GMT
i guess i would see if differently if surprise then turned to acceptance.
but at least his therapist has his back, that's good support.
nobody is obliged to have the relationship someone else wants.
it's his journey.
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Post by goldilocks on Aug 30, 2018 18:59:54 GMT
Even here on the boards, with a lot of people aspiring to be secure, how many people have succeeded?
Healing one's wounds and earning a secure attachment style is often a multiyear project that requires serious effort.
It is up to him to decide if he wishes to undertake this or if other things have more of a priority for him.
He may well want to improve himself and his life, but perhaps he sees it as more valuable to quit smoking or get a better job than to to through couples therapy with OP. As a free adult, he has the right to set his own goals and priorities.
This is true and good advice.
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Post by happyidiot on Aug 30, 2018 19:24:52 GMT
I didn't read it that way. I read it as genuine surprise that everyone's default isn't to want to aspire to be secure, and that's what they all define as healthy. That's how I saw it too. She also didn't say that list was necessarily a list of "16 traits/behaviours of his that she wants him to change," just things she "noticed" about him. I saw it as a list of the reasons she thought he was DA. Some of them aren't even changeable things. She didn't say if she shared that list with him. As for the things she presumably does wish he'd do differently, you can hardly compare things that have to do with how he treats her or their relationship with superficial things like asking someone to lose weight. Aren't people here repeatedly told we should understand our attachment styles, aspire to be more secure and that those things will allow us to have healthier and happier relationships and lives? Why is it rude or surprising for her to assume that he would want to learn about his own attachment style and try to be more secure? He sometimes talked about things like marriage and couples therapy, it's not like dealing with someone who openly says they are happy without a traditional relationship. I do agree that it's important to accept if someone says they don't want to become more secure and don't want to change, even if you think it would be good for them. kibbins: I think better communication is a good thing to have as a goal, and it's cool he agreed to that. I would focus on that rather than trying to explain to him why you think he should try to be less DA. If you can both communicate with each other better you may find out quickly whether or not you are compatible enough to continue being involved. Could you try to communicate your needs in tangible terms rather than within the framework of attachment style? Like if you need someone to spend more time with you or introduce you to their friends, you could ask if he is willing to provide those things, rather than ask him to try to act like a secure or adopt general traits or feelings about things that it sounds like he thinks he is incapable of. And ask him what he needs, while trying to make him feel comfortable expressing needs that may not mesh with yours? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 19:40:08 GMT
he was annoyed and he said "that's not me. you should find someone you don't want to change."
he apparently feels that she wants to change him.
so, i read it how he does apparently: she wants to change him and he isn't interested in that, or in being psychoanalyzed.
why is it not rude for her to persist?
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Post by goldilocks on Aug 30, 2018 19:51:10 GMT
I didn't read it that way. I read it as genuine surprise that everyone's default isn't to want to aspire to be secure, and that's what they all define as healthy. As for the things she presumably does wish he'd do differently, you can hardly compare things that have to do with how he treats her or their relationship with superficial things like asking someone to lose weight. Aren't people here repeatedly told we should understand our attachment styles, aspire to be more secure and that those things will allow us to have healthier and happier relationships and lives? Why is it rude or surprising for her to assume that he would want to learn about his own attachment style and try to be more secure? He sometimes talked about things like marriage and couples therapy, it's not like dealing with someone who openly says they are happy without a traditional relationship. I do agree that it's important to accept if someone says they don't want to become more secure and don't want to change, even if you think it would be good for them. For what it is worth, it took me years to change my attachment style and I have lost 20lbs since christmas. Both have benefitted my health. Both have been my own decisions. I would not have been enthusiastic about a man who would ask me to change either of these things before I was ready to set these goals. Many people go through life with insecure attachment or extra weight. Not everyone wants to change. Even people who are willing to change, may not appreciate a romantic prospect choosing their personal growth priorities. It is fine to state your request for change, as long as you accept that the other party might simply walk away. kibbinsEven if he enjoyed chatting with you, liked you, joked about marriage and was willing to work on something small and attainable, he may not be willing to earn security. That is really disappointing for you. It sucks to not get your desired outcome. Looking at your list, he does not sound like the best guy for you or the best relationship material in general. I am quite sure there are more commitment friendly matches out there for you. |
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Post by happyidiot on Aug 30, 2018 20:18:32 GMT
For what it is worth, it took me years to change my attachment style and I have lost 20lbs since christmas. Both have benefitted my health. Both have been my own decisions. I would not have been enthusiastic about a man who would ask me to change either of these things before I was ready to set these goals. Many people go through life with insecure attachment or extra weight. Not everyone wants to change. Even people who are willing to change, may not appreciate a romantic prospect choosing their personal growth priorities. It is fine to state your request for change, as long as you accept that the other party might simply walk away. kibbins Even if he enjoyed chatting with you, liked you, joked about marriage and was willing to work on something small and attainable, he may not be willing to earn security. That is really disappointing for you. It sucks to not get your desired outcome. Looking at your list, he does not sound like the best guy for you or the best relationship material in general. I am quite sure there are more commitment friendly matches out there for you. I agree with all this. |
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?? Like, I don't even know how to explain to him how aiming to be secure is what will achieve a healthy relationship. He's just making it sound like I'm this monster trying to make him be something else and using his therapist as backup that I'm in the wrong. I'm so tired yet still have feelings for this person and don't even know what to do anymore. We aren't even talking right now bc he was rude the other night when he basically ran out of my house as a "goodbye" after not seeing each other for a week and I wrote "I'm done" (never said that before) so I am sure I won't hear from him, but for me, even if it is ending, I will want to have a closure convo or talk about how I can't continue unless he at least tries to be less DA. This is wearing on me, and he's making it into this thing about us being incompatible/my needs, and not anything wrong w him.. I am more than willing to take responsibility for any problems I am bringing to the "relationship"..
" and sometimes (but not seriously) say stuff like "when we are married should we open a *insert joke restaurant/buy a container home/have lots of dancing at our wedding/adopt etc." He left me flowers once at my door. He went to therapy once to "see if he could be the partner I needed" but that was just when the problems were with his lack of spontaneity with planning hangouts. Later when I pointed out the avoidant stuff it seems like he might have just given up. Overall, he is respectful. The spending time in 2 hr timeslots was the first thing I noticed, then later started noticing the rest. And he once agreed to go to couples therapy with me but then we didn't talk about it again. He left me out of a lot of things after that that made things super strained and i feel like as time went on perhaps he respected me less when I was too available. Who knows. There's a lot. It will take me a bit to get over this, i really liked him. And yes I need to look into my AP stuff, not happy I was attracted to this...
