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Post by happyidiot on Sept 1, 2018 0:02:52 GMT
My DA sister, reading about attachment styles at my suggestion (I'm AP), was reading the description of AP first and said, "Well that just describes almost everyone!" and I said, "Well no, I think it's less than a quarter. Perhaps it's just most people you know, as those are just the kind of people you attract? Or you perceive people as acting that way, or are in a way triggering those behaviors due to your dynamic with them? There are actually lots of people like you." She said, "Yeah like a lot of men you date I guess. I just don't understand why people I date always want something from me and purposely live in a fantasy that what we are doing means something or is going somewhere." I said maybe it's because the way she acts towards people might confuse them. She said, "I just enjoy companionship and sex and being cuddly and nice! That doesn't mean I feel anything for them, why would they think that and ignore what I want? Am I supposed to sacrifice my own desires and not text them a lot, not do fun stuff together, not be affectionate or cuddly?! Why would someone get attached to me after only a few months of casual dating? It's not my fault if they are being delusional idiots and wildly misinterpret things when I'm not looking for a relationship!" and she broke down crying.
In the past it had been hard for me to have much understanding for the way she treats men, seeing her ignoring their texts, not being clear with them (while interestingly thinking it was "abundantly clear," because it was to her) and getting furious that they've developed feelings for her (it actually seems to anger her and make her feel very pressured when a man simply says he has feelings for her or is hopeful that something "serious" might eventually develop), when as an AP I have a lot of empathy and compassion for these men. But now that I know about attachment styles, knowing that she isn't the way she is on purpose, seeing her cry because she was genuinely feeling victimized and was genuinely very confused, I had a lot more compassion for her and saw that as a DA she was just as mystified by APs as APs are by avoidants. And that an unaware DA can have as little self-insight into their own behavior and how it's perceived by others as an unaware AP. It's all so sad.
As to her questions (although it felt like they were rhetorical), what do you think are the best ways for an avoidant who thinks they are not interested in a "relationship" to avoid hurting people?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 0:26:39 GMT
i do not understand her approach personally, because i don't behave like i am in a relationship unless i want a relationship, and any casual involvement i have been in , has been mutually agreed and conducted as casual, with no ambiguity. i despise ambiguity, as it's very destabilizing to me and causes emotional stress. i prefer direct communication when it involves another person, it's less stress that way.
the only way for her to gain insight into her treatment of herself and of others is to work toward authenticity and eliminating the fear of being emotionally honest with herself and others.
i don't attract nor am i attracted to AP partners at all since gaining emotional availability.
she isn't a victim any more than an AP is, and she is responsible for her own choices. her behavior may be more FA, the way you told that story sounds off for DA, to me.
if she is able to carry on for months with someone and not have a clue they are having illusions, she may be lying to herself.
all insecurely attached people behave in ways that don't honor themselves or their partners, and changing it means confronting the deep wounds that conditioned their insecure attachment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 1:15:44 GMT
it's truly hard for me to imagine crying like that, feeling victimized.
it's a little OTT for a dismissive, in my opinion.
not that we don't cry, not at all that we don't feel emotion.
but if she was triggered into some kind of pain that touched her wounds i would expect a dampened response- stoic or glib, not sobbing. that goes along with the nervous system reaction to DA wounding.
that's just got me saying "huh?"
there can be a lot of variance but i have never seen a DA cry except at the loss of a loved one or a pet, or some deep pain innsympathy. i've never seen a DA cry about feeling victimized.
seriously, i haven't.
i went through years of abuse and didn't cry.
if she is that sensitive about herself she can't be that unaware, anyway.
it just is odd to me, that reaction, in that scenario. she's talking so tough and disparaging partners, and acting so vulnerable? that's odd.
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 1, 2018 1:17:04 GMT
It's really interesting you say that, juniper. I really thought she was FA too (but didn't suggest that as I didn't want to lead her), and I think she just said she was DA based on the written descriptions. People keep saying FA is extremely rare, but my suspicion is that it's possible that it just hasn't been studied as much. A lot of tests and research don't even separate avoidant styles into DA and FA. I also wonder if it's possible that some FA people might be reluctant to admit they are FA, like maybe they think DA sounds stronger? The thing about my sister is that she thinks she is a clear direct communicator (I do not agree with that assessment). She also doesn't see the way she acts with these men as acting like she wants a relationship. Although maybe she has an inkling that it's not actually unreasonable for her behavior to mislead people, given her reaction; I've rarely ever seen her cry in her life. She will do something like tell a man on the first or second date that she "doesn't do relationships" and then be perplexed and as to why he ends up having feelings when they have "only" gone on five or fifteen dates or whatever (that all involved doing activities, having passionate sex, sleeping over, cuddling, cooking breakfast the next morning, maybe going on a roadtrip, etc) when she clearly told him early on that she doesn't do relationships. One literally ended up outside her apartment serenading her with his guitar when she was trying to avoid him. |
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 1, 2018 1:20:11 GMT
it's truly hard for me to imagine crying like that, feeling victimized. it's a little OTT for a dismissive, in my opinion. not that we don't cry, not at all that we don't feel emotion. but if she was triggered into some kind of pain that touched her wounds i would expect a dampened response- stoic or glib, not sobbing. that goes along with the nervous system reaction to DA wounding. that's just got me saying "huh?" there can be a lot of variance but i have never seen a DA cry except at the loss of a loved one or a pet, or some deep pain innsympathy. i've never seen a DA cry about feeling victimized. seriously, i haven't. i went through years of abuse and didn't cry. if she is that sensitive about herself she can't be that unaware, anyway. it just is odd to me, that reaction, in that scenario. she's talking so tough and disparaging partners, and acting so vulnerable? that's odd. It was maybe the second or third time I've ever seen her cry. She has said in the past that she almost never cries, not that she just cries in private. I didn't mean to imply she was sobbing, it was very restrained and brief crying, I just used the words "broke down" meaning she was trying not to cry. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 1:23:24 GMT
It's really interesting you say that, juniper. I really thought she was FA too (but didn't suggest that as I didn't want to lead her), and I think she just said she was DA based on the written descriptions. People keep saying FA is extremely rare, but my suspicion is that it's possible that it just hasn't been studied as much. A lot of tests and research don't even separate avoidant styles into DA and FA. I also wonder if it's possible that some FA people might be reluctant to admit they are FA, like maybe they think DA sounds stronger? The thing about my sister is that she thinks she is a clear direct communicator (I do not agree with that assessment). She also doesn't see the way she acts with these men as acting like she wants a relationship. Although maybe she has an inkling that it's not actually unreasonable for her behavior to mislead people, given her reaction; I've rarely ever seen her cry in her life. She will do something like tell a man on the first or second date that she "doesn't do relationships" and then be perplexed and as to why he ends up having feelings when they have "only" gone on five or fifteen dates or whatever (that all involved doing activities, having passionate sex, sleeping over, cuddling, cooking breakfast the next morning, maybe going on a roadtrip, etc) when she clearly told him early on that she doesn't do relationships. One literally ended up outside her apartment serenading her with his guitar when she was trying to avoid him. oh yeah, now i think even MORE FA. that's a ton of involvement for DA. it really is. road trips make it really hard to not get overwhelmed. the DA need for head space and non-couple activity is real, and strong. it tends to be because we fear that letting someone in deeply will lead to pain. so we avoid that. we don't jump in so heavy. we guard our perimeters a little more than that. at least me and every DA i know- and i am surrounded by them. |
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 1, 2018 2:16:58 GMT
juniper , I think the tears may have been in sympathy. I suspect she may have been feeling bad because she loves me more than anyone and saw herself in men who hurt me. This is just my hunch. Does it make any difference if the dates I described were spaced out? She would rarely see these guys more than once a week. This is what my FA exes did with me too though and I'm pretty sure they were FA. Even if the actual dates would be long they were usually spaced out. I'll suggest my sister read more about FA style. Also, she absolutely does believe that letting someone in deeply will lead to pain, she just doesn't consider something like spending a weekend away with someone to be letting them in, as she says she has the ability to simply not trust people and to completely shut off her feelings.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 2:39:03 GMT
it's truly hard for me to imagine crying like that, feeling victimized. it's a little OTT for a dismissive, in my opinion. not that we don't cry, not at all that we don't feel emotion. but if she was triggered into some kind of pain that touched her wounds i would expect a dampened response- stoic or glib, not sobbing. that goes along with the nervous system reaction to DA wounding. that's just got me saying "huh?" there can be a lot of variance but i have never seen a DA cry except at the loss of a loved one or a pet, or some deep pain innsympathy. i've never seen a DA cry about feeling victimized. seriously, i haven't. i went through years of abuse and didn't cry. if she is that sensitive about herself she can't be that unaware, anyway. it just is odd to me, that reaction, in that scenario. she's talking so tough and disparaging partners, and acting so vulnerable? that's odd. It was maybe the second or third time I've ever seen her cry. She has said in the past that she almost never cries, not that she just cries in private. I didn't mean to imply she was sobbing, it was very restrained and brief crying, I just used the words "broke down" meaning she was trying not to cry. oh, i'm sorry i misunderstood that. i read it differently and it confused me. sorry about that. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 2:46:52 GMT
juniper , I think the tears may have been in sympathy. I suspect she may have been feeling bad because she loves me more than anyone and saw herself in men who hurt me. This is just my hunch. Does it make any difference if the dates I described were spaced out? She would rarely see these guys more than once a week. This is what my FA exes did with me too though and I'm pretty sure they were FA. Even if the actual dates would be long they were usually spaced out. I'll suggest my sister read more about FA style. Also, she absolutely does believe that letting someone in deeply will lead to pain, she just doesn't consider something like spending a weekend away with someone to be letting them in, as she says she has the ability to simply not trust people and to completely shut off her feelings. i wouldn't be surprised if her emotion was due to pain she has seen you suffer. I misunderstood the story, it sounded like she was disparaging men and feeling sorry for herself "delusional idiots" - i didn't hear any empathy in that, just self justification but yes, if you two are close then i could see her feeling pain for you, as AP. i get it now, if that is what your take was. that wasn't clear to me. Jeb has an attachment style test, she could find out where she fits easily with that. have you seen it? jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/53-2/i think that is the right link. |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 1, 2018 2:57:19 GMT
happyidiot, if she's willing/interested, maybe she will take the assessment. My understanding is that, aside from the anxiety measurements, the biggest high-level difference between DA and FA is positive view of self versus negative view of self. Both types have a negative view of attached others, which she appears to have expressed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 2:58:08 GMT
yes, it makes more sense that the dates were spread out.
i myself would be overwhelmed by the lack of silence for a weekend together but that's me, i think i need more head space and quiet than some.
It's a very relationship-y thing to do, a weekend away.
I have strange relationship experience, i didn't date much at all, i married quickly with little dating experience because my upbringing taught me that marriage was for practicality so i tried to be a good wife and do a good job with domestic things. i know that sounds pathetic. i did not grow up with a concept of marital love, it was marital duty and logistics , no romance. it's not that i didn't want to be a loving wife, i just didn't know all about that, i did my best but i was married to very abusive men i grew to despise. I have probably a more traumatic and strange relationship history than can be considered "typical".
so, i know that other DA have dated more than i have. i am not a very good judge of dating i guess, it's a little embarrassing. i came from deep deep dismissive to where i am now and i still don't understand everything about dating, obviously. :/
but that test could help, probably more than i can in some ways .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 3:01:40 GMT
happyidiot, if she's willing/interested, maybe she will take the assessment. My understanding is that, aside from the anxiety measurements, the biggest high-level difference between DA and FA is positive view of self versus negative view of self. Both types have a negative view of attached others, which she appears to have expressed. yes and i think a big indicator is also actual time spent in the presence of the partner. i know DA to get overwhelmed pretty easily. for us, less is definitely more. it's hard to keep something going for months. my partner and i did only because we gradually fell in love. if not for that we wouldn't have put up with each other. lol. |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 1, 2018 3:12:26 GMT
She said, "I just enjoy companionship and sex and being cuddly and nice! That doesn't mean I feel anything for them, why would they think that and ignore what I want? Am I supposed to sacrifice my own desires and not text them a lot, not do fun stuff together, not be affectionate or cuddly?! Why would someone get attached to me after only a few months of casual dating? It's not my fault if they are being delusional idiots and wildly misinterpret things when I'm not looking for a relationship!" and she broke down crying. In the past it had been hard for me to have much understanding for the way she treats men, seeing her ignoring their texts, not being clear with them (while interestingly thinking it was "abundantly clear," because it was to her) and getting furious that they've developed feelings for her (it actually seems to anger her and make her feel very pressured when a man simply says he has feelings for her or is hopeful that something "serious" might eventually develop), when as an AP I have a lot of empathy and compassion for these men. But now that I know about attachment styles, knowing that she isn't the way she is on purpose, seeing her cry because she was genuinely feeling victimized and was genuinely very confused, I had a lot more compassion for her and saw that as a DA she was just as mystified by APs as APs are by avoidants. And that an unaware DA can have as little self-insight into their own behavior and how it's perceived by others as an unaware AP. It's all so sad. As to her questions (although it felt like they were rhetorical), what do you think are the best ways for an avoidant who thinks they are not interested in a "relationship" to avoid hurting people? It sounds more like she does want a relationship, but not a committed one. Not every relationship is committed, some are transient. My advice is for her to look for men who explicitly seek casual relationships and are not looking to commit. There are dating sites focussed on sex and casual encounters. Guys who are coming out of a long relationship, or guys in their 20's who are on such a site would be a good demographic for her. There are many out there; more than women who seek such things. She does not sound DA, maybe FA, maybe with other issues. DA has strong self esteem and is a self soother. If I feel the need to cry, I withdraw. Self pity is not part of DA style. Unless she is a teenager. I do get the impression she is over 25 but not acting the part. She seems stuck in her own feelings, without space for those of others. Feeling victimized over having an unwanted admirer? Sounds like someone who has never dealt with real adversity. Ambiguity stems from low self esteem; someone is afraid to be blunt because she needs the validation. Then communication is wishy washy "Hihi I don't do relationships, haha" rather than clear "I am not looking to commit, I am dealing with a couple men and looking for adventure, sex and cuddles" Long, spaced out dates sound like a long distance relationship. I have done this when romantically interested in somone living far away, but my preference would be more shorter dates. |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 1, 2018 3:14:39 GMT
I have strange relationship experience, i didn't date much at all, i married quickly with little dating experience because my upbringing taught me that marriage was for practicality so i tried to be a good wife and do a good job with domestic things. i know that sounds pathetic. i did not grow up with a concept of marital love, it was marital duty and logistics , no romance. it's not that i didn't want to be a loving wife, i just didn't know all about that, i did my best but i was married to very abusive men i grew to despise. I have probably a more traumatic and strange relationship history than can be considered "typical". so, i know that other DA have dated more than i have. i am not a very good judge of dating i guess, it's a little embarrassing. i came from deep deep dismissive to where i am now and i still don't understand everything about dating, obviously. :/ Sending you a big hug! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 4:20:54 GMT
I have strange relationship experience, i didn't date much at all, i married quickly with little dating experience because my upbringing taught me that marriage was for practicality so i tried to be a good wife and do a good job with domestic things. i know that sounds pathetic. i did not grow up with a concept of marital love, it was marital duty and logistics , no romance. it's not that i didn't want to be a loving wife, i just didn't know all about that, i did my best but i was married to very abusive men i grew to despise. I have probably a more traumatic and strange relationship history than can be considered "typical". so, i know that other DA have dated more than i have. i am not a very good judge of dating i guess, it's a little embarrassing. i came from deep deep dismissive to where i am now and i still don't understand everything about dating, obviously. :/ Sending you a big hug! thank you goldilocks i don't feel sad until i do but it is better now huh? it's a lot better and that's what i'm going to think about thanks for joining this forum when you did , i don't know what i would have done. *emotional* |
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