|
|
Post by epicgum on Sept 1, 2018 4:50:57 GMT
It's really interesting you say that, juniper. I really thought she was FA too (but didn't suggest that as I didn't want to lead her), and I think she just said she was DA based on the written descriptions. People keep saying FA is extremely rare, but my suspicion is that it's possible that it just hasn't been studied as much. A lot of tests and research don't even separate avoidant styles into DA and FA. I also wonder if it's possible that some FA people might be reluctant to admit they are FA, like maybe they think DA sounds stronger? The thing about my sister is that she thinks she is a clear direct communicator (I do not agree with that assessment). She also doesn't see the way she acts with these men as acting like she wants a relationship. Although maybe she has an inkling that it's not actually unreasonable for her behavior to mislead people, given her reaction; I've rarely ever seen her cry in her life. She will do something like tell a man on the first or second date that she "doesn't do relationships" and then be perplexed and as to why he ends up having feelings when they have "only" gone on five or fifteen dates or whatever (that all involved doing activities, having passionate sex, sleeping over, cuddling, cooking breakfast the next morning, maybe going on a roadtrip, etc) when she clearly told him early on that she doesn't do relationships. One literally ended up outside her apartment serenading her with his guitar when she was trying to avoid him. I wonder that about the DA/FA thing as well. Reading about how rare FA was supposed to be I immediately discounted it, and yet it seems to match myself and a couple of other people in my life as well...seems too common for such a small slice of the population, but then, perhaps it's in my head. |
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Sept 1, 2018 5:25:41 GMT
5% is still 1 in every 20.
And people come in clumps. If your mother was FA, chances are you have more FA friends and loves than average.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 6:49:57 GMT
it's truly hard for me to imagine crying like that, feeling victimized. it's a little OTT for a dismissive, in my opinion. not that we don't cry, not at all that we don't feel emotion. but if she was triggered into some kind of pain that touched her wounds i would expect a dampened response- stoic or glib, not sobbing. that goes along with the nervous system reaction to DA wounding. that's just got me saying "huh?" there can be a lot of variance but i have never seen a DA cry except at the loss of a loved one or a pet, or some deep pain innsympathy. i've never seen a DA cry about feeling victimized. seriously, i haven't. i went through years of abuse and didn't cry. if she is that sensitive about herself she can't be that unaware, anyway. it just is odd to me, that reaction, in that scenario. she's talking so tough and disparaging partners, and acting so vulnerable? that's odd. This lack of expression can also happen with FAs / APs, when they are taught to not show emotion. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 13:51:37 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by epicgum on Sept 1, 2018 13:57:08 GMT
Thank you!  |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Sept 1, 2018 14:34:48 GMT
I don't see the fearful in that behaviour at all. What I do see is someone at that first state of awareness, and with awareness, she now has the choice of dealing with it or burying it.
As an aside, I got "friendzoned" today and I felt like I may as well have been 15. Just a void inside. Sadness somewhere, smiles on the outside, but dead inside. Sigh. This sort of thing was why I learned to not feel. It's just too big and too difficult to do every day.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 14:38:25 GMT
I don't see the fearful in that behaviour at all. What I do see is someone at that first state of awareness, and with awareness, she now has the choice of dealing with it or burying it. As an aside, I got "friendzoned" today and I felt like I may as well have been 15. Just a void inside. Sadness somewhere, smiles on the outside, but dead inside. Sigh. This sort of thing was why I learned to not feel. It's just too big and too difficult to do every day. i'm so sorry mrob. i am sorry you are sad, and hurt. ♥️ |
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Sept 1, 2018 21:51:58 GMT
I don't see the fearful in that behaviour at all. What I do see is someone at that first state of awareness, and with awareness, she now has the choice of dealing with it or burying it. As an aside, I got "friendzoned" today and I felt like I may as well have been 15. Just a void inside. Sadness somewhere, smiles on the outside, but dead inside. Sigh. This sort of thing was why I learned to not feel. It's just too big and too difficult to do every day. Awww! :-( It sounds like you are right in a horrible day... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 22:34:48 GMT
I don't see the fearful in that behaviour at all. What I do see is someone at that first state of awareness, and with awareness, she now has the choice of dealing with it or burying it. As an aside, I got "friendzoned" today and I felt like I may as well have been 15. Just a void inside. Sadness somewhere, smiles on the outside, but dead inside. Sigh. This sort of thing was why I learned to not feel. It's just too big and too difficult to do every day. Awww! :-( It sounds like you are right in a horrible day... mrob - sorry you are feeling so down. But ...are you feeling but but not expressing, rather than just not feeling, then (given you felt like you were 15..)? |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Sept 1, 2018 23:50:04 GMT
I don’t know, really. This is the closest I’ve come to expressing anything. And this thread wasn’t meant to be about me! Lol.
It’s like I am disappointed that I could possibly think there was something there. Cue the violins. Yet another person I have to be happy for, when all I want to do is retreat and never speak to another human being again.
Like everything, it’ll pass.
|
|
|
|
Post by epicgum on Sept 2, 2018 0:44:59 GMT
I don't see the fearful in that behaviour at all. What I do see is someone at that first state of awareness, and with awareness, she now has the choice of dealing with it or burying it. As an aside, I got "friendzoned" today and I felt like I may as well have been 15. Just a void inside. Sadness somewhere, smiles on the outside, but dead inside. Sigh. This sort of thing was why I learned to not feel. It's just too big and too difficult to do every day. Yeah, I get this. You deal with enough rejection and it hardens you unfortunately. Add to this the cultural convention that you should pretend to be chill at all times and you are always waiting for the other shoe to drop. As they say, hurt people hurt people, and we are all hurt people. |
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Sept 2, 2018 17:44:31 GMT
It was maybe the second or third time I've ever seen her cry. She has said in the past that she almost never cries, not that she just cries in private. I didn't mean to imply she was sobbing, it was very restrained and brief crying, I just used the words "broke down" meaning she was trying not to cry. oh, i'm sorry i misunderstood that. i read it differently and it confused me. sorry about that. I did not explain it clearly. juniper , I think the tears may have been in sympathy. I suspect she may have been feeling bad because she loves me more than anyone and saw herself in men who hurt me. This is just my hunch. Does it make any difference if the dates I described were spaced out? She would rarely see these guys more than once a week. This is what my FA exes did with me too though and I'm pretty sure they were FA. Even if the actual dates would be long they were usually spaced out. I'll suggest my sister read more about FA style. Also, she absolutely does believe that letting someone in deeply will lead to pain, she just doesn't consider something like spending a weekend away with someone to be letting them in, as she says she has the ability to simply not trust people and to completely shut off her feelings. i wouldn't be surprised if her emotion was due to pain she has seen you suffer. I misunderstood the story, it sounded like she was disparaging men and feeling sorry for herself "delusional idiots" - i didn't hear any empathy in that, just self justification but yes, if you two are close then i could see her feeling pain for you, as AP. i get it now, if that is what your take was. that wasn't clear to me. Jeb has an attachment style test, she could find out where she fits easily with that. have you seen it? jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/53-2/i think that is the right link. I think it's complex, she was disparaging people that she perceives as willfully indulging in a fantasy, but it's hard to say if the tears at the end were for herself in exasperation at feeling so misunderstood, or because inside she had a realization that her behavior is hurting people, and that I, someone she cares about deeply, got hurt by behavior similar to hers, and that it's not unusual or insane for people to have expectations or hopes due to certain acts. happyidiot , if she's willing/interested, maybe she will take the assessment. My understanding is that, aside from the anxiety measurements, the biggest high-level difference between DA and FA is positive view of self versus negative view of self. Both types have a negative view of attached others, which she appears to have expressed. She definitely has low self-esteem but it is very well hidden from people that don't know her very well. We both took that test and we both got FA. Her's was heavier on the DA, mine heavier on the AP. |
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Sept 2, 2018 18:12:54 GMT
I don't see the fearful in that behaviour at all. What I do see is someone at that first state of awareness, and with awareness, she now has the choice of dealing with it or burying it. As an aside, I got "friendzoned" today and I felt like I may as well have been 15. Just a void inside. Sadness somewhere, smiles on the outside, but dead inside. Sigh. This sort of thing was why I learned to not feel. It's just too big and too difficult to do every day. I'm so sorry! It kills me when that happens too. Have you had any delayed feelings about it? I find that sometimes when I get broken up with or told that someone sees me only as a friend or whatever, in the moment I don't really feel anything and even appear cheerful and then hours or days later when safely not in the person's presence I feel my feelings. I'm trying to work on getting more in touch with my emotions and being able to feel them and name them and figure out what caused them, because I think it actually harms me more to have them bottled deep out of reach than it would if I could feel them in the moment. |
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Sept 2, 2018 18:31:08 GMT
She said, "I just enjoy companionship and sex and being cuddly and nice! That doesn't mean I feel anything for them, why would they think that and ignore what I want? Am I supposed to sacrifice my own desires and not text them a lot, not do fun stuff together, not be affectionate or cuddly?! Why would someone get attached to me after only a few months of casual dating? It's not my fault if they are being delusional idiots and wildly misinterpret things when I'm not looking for a relationship!" and she broke down crying. In the past it had been hard for me to have much understanding for the way she treats men, seeing her ignoring their texts, not being clear with them (while interestingly thinking it was "abundantly clear," because it was to her) and getting furious that they've developed feelings for her (it actually seems to anger her and make her feel very pressured when a man simply says he has feelings for her or is hopeful that something "serious" might eventually develop), when as an AP I have a lot of empathy and compassion for these men. But now that I know about attachment styles, knowing that she isn't the way she is on purpose, seeing her cry because she was genuinely feeling victimized and was genuinely very confused, I had a lot more compassion for her and saw that as a DA she was just as mystified by APs as APs are by avoidants. And that an unaware DA can have as little self-insight into their own behavior and how it's perceived by others as an unaware AP. It's all so sad. As to her questions (although it felt like they were rhetorical), what do you think are the best ways for an avoidant who thinks they are not interested in a "relationship" to avoid hurting people? It sounds more like she does want a relationship, but not a committed one. Not every relationship is committed, some are transient. My advice is for her to look for men who explicitly seek casual relationships and are not looking to commit. There are dating sites focussed on sex and casual encounters. Guys who are coming out of a long relationship, or guys in their 20's who are on such a site would be a good demographic for her. There are many out there; more than women who seek such things. She does not sound DA, maybe FA, maybe with other issues. DA has strong self esteem and is a self soother. If I feel the need to cry, I withdraw. Self pity is not part of DA style. Unless she is a teenager. I do get the impression she is over 25 but not acting the part. She seems stuck in her own feelings, without space for those of others. Feeling victimized over having an unwanted admirer? Sounds like someone who has never dealt with real adversity. Ambiguity stems from low self esteem; someone is afraid to be blunt because she needs the validation. Then communication is wishy washy "Hihi I don't do relationships, haha" rather than clear "I am not looking to commit, I am dealing with a couple men and looking for adventure, sex and cuddles" Long, spaced out dates sound like a long distance relationship. I have done this when romantically interested in somone living far away, but my preference would be more shorter dates. Yeah, perhaps she wants an ongoing relationship where the other person has no expectations of her and she feels free to end it at any time without fallout. About one guy she once claimed she would have happily continued seeing him for years if he hadn't gone and developed feelings for her and wanted to see her more frequently. She has definitely dealt with real adversities in her life, like abuse, death/loss, poverty, health problems... we both have. Sometimes people overreact to small things due to being triggered. Sometimes if my attachment wounds are triggered it can feel just as painful as other far more objectively awful things like someone close to me dying. I think you're right about ambiguity coming from a need for validation, a worry that if she is truly clear that the person will stop seeing her. Can you tell me more about your preference for frequent shorter dates? |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Sept 2, 2018 19:22:18 GMT
I wonder if there are any studies on how often siblings share the same attachment style. They've likely been raised the same way, so it would make sense. Lately I've come across three irl examples of siblings all with either the same insecure AP or FA style, though there was also the example on the board of someone friends with a set of DA and AP sisters.
|
|
