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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 16:41:06 GMT
To each their own, all I can offer is my own feelings and experience and what I've read in books and on the web to try to understand the best techniques. That said...I'm a bit skeptical that we share the same issues, and I think my case is more likely to be encountered "in the wild" by those asking the question. My advice is for people dealing with people like myself who have a (perhaps) irrational fear of intimacy/commitment/emotions/engulfment, and so the point of the "kid gloves" and other "sideways" aspects of it is to soften the threat that it poses and ease into it. You wouldn't ask a person with a phobia of snakes to go into the snake-pit alone...you'd go in holding their hand...and first you'd show pictures of snakes, and see a snake in a museum etc. same principal applies. This assumes that both people ultimately want to get to the same committed place with one another, or at least give themselves the opportunity to get to that place without being derailed by their attachment system. If you WANT the other person to run away...it's easy enough to do that too! I think a lot of people lump DA and FA together as "avoidant". From my own experience and from this forum, I think there are some very large differences between the two. FAs have always seemed to me to be much more in touch with their feelings and of course there is the whole spectrum thing. I am DA and more than likely, pretty extreme. I have a huge phobia of heights, so I went sky diving  . |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 12, 2018 16:48:24 GMT
Then after a couple of weeks we can discuss, if I am also interested in committing, what we both want out of a relationship and what we are committing to. It would not feel as an ultimatum to me if there is no intent to manipulate, but rather to clarify. If we have been friends or dating for a year, a few weeks would suffice for me to think about if I want to take it a step further with you and what that might entail for me. I would take the time to write down what I need and what I can offer to you. My assumption would be that a committed relationship would include exclusivity, sex, making time for a weekly date and meeting close friends and relatives. But it is best to be explicit about your expectations. Yes! I think like this: I date someone to get to know if we can have a relationship and under the relationship we will find out if we can get our relationship even further like moving in together/getting married, having kids and all that stuff. I know and like him enough to feel like I would like to have a relationship. But I don’t know yet if would be a good “life partners” but I am curious to know. Let’s see if we share the same thoughts 😊. Same here. Once in the relationship I can better see how compatible we are and we can talk about future possibilities. The act o being in a relationship provides the information required to assess deeper compatibility. What is his family like? How does he relate to his upbringing? How comfortable do we feel spending a weekend together? How about a holiday? How do we deal with finances? What do we want to build? Such things... |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 16:51:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 16:51:23 GMT
any time i enter an ongoing sexual relationship its with the clear expectation that i'm not sharing myself with other men and don't tolerate sharing a sexual partner with other women. I just don't do that, even casually. So, i put that out there from the beginning, that it's my ground rule. How do you go about putting that out there? Have you typically been friends with someone for a long time before it got physical? also, my partner and i prefer to have focused talks that don't involve an activity. I agree with this. I always had focused talks as well with my ex for anything serious. I guess I don't do well with distractions. I also much prefer direct talk without someone dancing around the issue. I like to know exactly what the person is asking and I can't stand when I feel like they are stepping around asking a direct question. It seems sometimes people think I will give a different answer if they ask it in a certain way. That's not the case for me. It just gets frustrating when I know they want to ask something but hesitate. I have no idea of this is a DA thing or not. It's just my opinion. Interesting and useful to hear you both say this. When I said I liked epicgum and lilyg 's suggestions to do it with an activity or project I was just basing that off what my psychologist had told me, what I had read and some personal experience. I am not DA of course, as you may remember I thought I was AP and have only been examining my avoidant behaviors recently, and even though FA is supposedly rare (I theorize it isn't) FA seems to be the dominant attachment style of most of my close friends and romantic partners (at least the ones who I've been really interested in/make it very far). Maybe we just attract each other. But the advice I got and read was supposedly applicable for all avoidant people. What do you think about an activity first, followed by a sit-down chat? (I agree with being direct, that's probably best for all attachment styles surely, but saw that as kind of a separate issue from doing an activity). That's funny, I personally have never willingly had unprotected sex, and I was thinking this is part of both the control freak and the avoidant in me. For the future, I only plan to have unprotected sex when we are exclusive and have both gone to get tested together, and when I know them pretty well. Looking back, typically when I want to have unprotected sex with someone has been with people who have turned out to be more avoidant than me, for whatever that's worth. Then it freaks me out because I realize I've entrusted them with my health and that it now really matters to me whether or not they're doing that with other people. None of my avoidant friends or exes, aside from one, seem to avoid unprotected sex, in fact they seem to leap into it and not really equate it with "feelings" or intimacy, but I could see how it could potentially be related to avoidance for some people, if it makes you feel closer and more intimate with someone. no, i haven't entered ongoing sexual relationships with people i have been friends with for a long time. my partner and i were acquaintances with a shared activity and were attracted so we got down, liked it, and agreed to keep it regular, because we liked each other and the sex was great. (still is). I said "I'm strictly monogamous and healthy. i don't like to use condoms. if we are going to have a sexual relationship i expect to be exclusive and need to know you are healthy, so we can enjoy ourselves and protect each other's health. I don't like to be involved in love triangles and want to have a great sex life with one person. if we can agree on that i would like to keep seeing you! " we were in full agreement. if it would have seemed sketchy i would have bailed. i had a background on him as our mutual friends (newer to me...) have known him 20 years or so and all said he was a man of integrity and not a womanizer. In fact, they said that they had never seen him behave with a woman as he did with me (interested and playful) so i felt some ease getting to know him. as far as a talk - no activity. just find out when is a good time, when a dismissive person is rested and has eaten and had some down time to relax. Respect their flow. Ask respectfully for when is a good time, considering these things. An activity will lead to a need for some down time and head space, most avoidants i know have an interaction budget and need to replenish. it's how we are wired. No need to preface with much. Eat, rest, refresh, talk. no problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 16:52:23 GMT
and yeah. FA and DA are very different.
huge differences and should not be lumped in together, just for reality's sake.
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Post by epicgum on Sept 12, 2018 17:05:11 GMT
To each their own, all I can offer is my own feelings and experience and what I've read in books and on the web to try to understand the best techniques. That said...I'm a bit skeptical that we share the same issues, and I think my case is more likely to be encountered "in the wild" by those asking the question. My advice is for people dealing with people like myself who have a (perhaps) irrational fear of intimacy/commitment/emotions/engulfment, and so the point of the "kid gloves" and other "sideways" aspects of it is to soften the threat that it poses and ease into it. You wouldn't ask a person with a phobia of snakes to go into the snake-pit alone...you'd go in holding their hand...and first you'd show pictures of snakes, and see a snake in a museum etc. same principal applies. This assumes that both people ultimately want to get to the same committed place with one another, or at least give themselves the opportunity to get to that place without being derailed by their attachment system. If you WANT the other person to run away...it's easy enough to do that too! I think a lot of people lump DA and FA together as "avoidant". From my own experience and from this forum, I think there are some very large differences between the two. FAs have always seemed to me to be much more in touch with their feelings and of course there is the whole spectrum thing. I am DA and more than likely, pretty extreme. I have a huge phobia of heights, so I went sky diving . To be honest, the avoidance that you seem to experience is not the same as the avoidance that is described in the literature that I have read, which you would describe as fearful-avoidant. This is confusing me. Your style of avoidance seems almost like a zen state devoid of emotion. As for the skydiving...I'm happy if this has been an accomplishment for you, but I would say 2 things. 1) I question the severity of your heights "phobia" if you were to conquer it so easily and dramatically. I have a friend who is phobic of snakes, and she cannot look at a picture of a snake without freaking out. If she were to go into a snake pit without prior exposure therapy I don't know would happen but I doubt it would be good. 2) As a analogy...the relevant issue with a commitment phobia (and FA in general) is that I would guess that most of them don't realize that it is an issue. After all, if you aren't ready to commit to someone or something, the narrative goes that it must not have been right for you. |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 17:15:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by stayhappy on Sept 12, 2018 17:15:35 GMT
Yes! I think like this: I date someone to get to know if we can have a relationship and under the relationship we will find out if we can get our relationship even further like moving in together/getting married, having kids and all that stuff. I know and like him enough to feel like I would like to have a relationship. But I don’t know yet if would be a good “life partners” but I am curious to know. Let’s see if we share the same thoughts 😊. Same here. Once in the relationship I can better see how compatible we are and we can talk about future possibilities. The act o being in a relationship provides the information required to assess deeper compatibility. What is his family like? How does he relate to his upbringing? How comfortable do we feel spending a weekend together? How about a holiday? How do we deal with finances? What do we want to build? Such things... If it is ok to ask, have you thought like this or you started to think like this while you got more secure? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 17:30:33 GMT
I think a lot of people lump DA and FA together as "avoidant". From my own experience and from this forum, I think there are some very large differences between the two. FAs have always seemed to me to be much more in touch with their feelings and of course there is the whole spectrum thing. I am DA and more than likely, pretty extreme. I have a huge phobia of heights, so I went sky diving . To be honest, the avoidance that you seem to experience is not the same as the avoidance that is described in the literature that I have read, which you would describe as fearful-avoidant. This is confusing me. Your style of avoidance seems almost like a zen state devoid of emotion. As for the skydiving...I'm happy if this has been an accomplishment for you, but I would say 2 things. 1) I question the severity of your heights "phobia" if you were to conquer it so easily and dramatically. I have a friend who is phobic of snakes, and she cannot look at a picture of a snake without freaking out. If she were to go into a snake pit without prior exposure therapy I don't know would happen but I doubt it would be good. 2) As a analogy...the relevant issue with a commitment phobia (and FA in general) is that I would guess that most of them don't realize that it is an issue. After all, if you aren't ready to commit to someone or something, the narrative goes that it must not have been right for you. Jeb describes the difference like this: The two avoidant types (dismissive-avoidant and fearful-avoidant) share a subconscious fear that caregivers are not reliable and intimacy is a dangerous thing. The dismissive-avoidant individuals (who we will call Dismissives) have completed a mental transformation that says: “I am good, I don’t need others, and they aren’t really important to me. I am fine as I am,” while the fearful-avoidant are still consciously craving an intimacy which scares them when it actually happens. I agree with him. I know the fear is there, but I don't feel it and therefore it doesn't exist for me consciously. It is much more zen than the anxiety I have read from others on this board. Rather than fear, it becomes "I don't like it" or "I don't want it". Skydiving was a question of logic for me. If I am on a balcony, I become dizzy and want to throw up. I know it's fear. The logical side though says, get over it! You don't know until you do it. It was actually one of the top 5 best things I have done in my life. I think you are right though. A lot of people don't recognize their issue, but they do feel the fear. If you don't recognize it and you don't feel the fear, the behavior is different. As always I only speak for myself. Everyone is different. For me, the ability to ultimately control the emotion is in overdrive. |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 17:35:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 17:35:04 GMT
I think a lot of people lump DA and FA together as "avoidant". From my own experience and from this forum, I think there are some very large differences between the two. FAs have always seemed to me to be much more in touch with their feelings and of course there is the whole spectrum thing. I am DA and more than likely, pretty extreme. I have a huge phobia of heights, so I went sky diving . To be honest, the avoidance that you seem to experience is not the same as the avoidance that is described in the literature that I have read, which you would describe as fearful-avoidant. This is confusing me. Your style of avoidance seems almost like a zen state devoid of emotion. As for the skydiving...I'm happy if this has been an accomplishment for you, but I would say 2 things. 1) I question the severity of your heights "phobia" if you were to conquer it so easily and dramatically. I have a friend who is phobic of snakes, and she cannot look at a picture of a snake without freaking out. If she were to go into a snake pit without prior exposure therapy I don't know would happen but I doubt it would be good. 2) As a analogy...the relevant issue with a commitment phobia (and FA in general) is that I would guess that most of them don't realize that it is an issue. After all, if you aren't ready to commit to someone or something, the narrative goes that it must not have been right for you. i have to agree with mary here, the whole going in sideways thing just is so off putting to me. really, it sounds like you're dealing with a kindergartener. the difference here i think is that DA were formed by having to go it alone, and we do well with that. for the most part we really haven't had the experience of someone holding our hand and treating us like we can't handle straight up talking. the illustration you shared about snakes is not fitting for me. at all. i haven't met an avoidant when approached respectfully, and reasonably, that wouldn't lay it out pretty straight and appreciate the same. I had a fear of heights so i stood on the edge of a precipice and looked down, and forced myself to breathe and stay standing. i hated it. i wouldn't say i killed it completely but that's how i approach it. i go head first into what feels stronger than me. i'm not saying i am a hero. i'm saying that i feel threatened by what i fear so i try to beat that. now i am doing that with intimacy. |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 17:35:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 17:35:47 GMT
To be honest, the avoidance that you seem to experience is not the same as the avoidance that is described in the literature that I have read, which you would describe as fearful-avoidant. This is confusing me. Your style of avoidance seems almost like a zen state devoid of emotion. As for the skydiving...I'm happy if this has been an accomplishment for you, but I would say 2 things. 1) I question the severity of your heights "phobia" if you were to conquer it so easily and dramatically. I have a friend who is phobic of snakes, and she cannot look at a picture of a snake without freaking out. If she were to go into a snake pit without prior exposure therapy I don't know would happen but I doubt it would be good. 2) As a analogy...the relevant issue with a commitment phobia (and FA in general) is that I would guess that most of them don't realize that it is an issue. After all, if you aren't ready to commit to someone or something, the narrative goes that it must not have been right for you. Jeb describes the difference like this: The two avoidant types (dismissive-avoidant and fearful-avoidant) share a subconscious fear that caregivers are not reliable and intimacy is a dangerous thing. The dismissive-avoidant individuals (who we will call Dismissives) have completed a mental transformation that says: “I am good, I don’t need others, and they aren’t really important to me. I am fine as I am,” while the fearful-avoidant are still consciously craving an intimacy which scares them when it actually happens. I agree with him. I know the fear is there, but I don't feel it and therefore it doesn't exist for me consciously. It is much more zen than the anxiety I have read from others on this board. Rather than fear, it becomes "I don't like it" or "I don't want it". Skydiving was a question of logic for me. If I am on a balcony, I become dizzy and want to throw up. I know it's fear. The logical side though says, get over it! You don't know until you do it. It was actually one of the top 5 best things I have done in my life. I think you are right though. A lot of people don't recognize their issue, but they do feel the fear. If you don't recognize it and you don't feel the fear, the behavior is different. As always I only speak for myself. Everyone is different. For me, the ability to ultimately control the emotion is in overdrive. [ YES. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 17:52:33 GMT
I think a lot of people lump DA and FA together as "avoidant". From my own experience and from this forum, I think there are some very large differences between the two. FAs have always seemed to me to be much more in touch with their feelings and of course there is the whole spectrum thing. I am DA and more than likely, pretty extreme. I have a huge phobia of heights, so I went sky diving . To be honest, the avoidance that you seem to experience is not the same as the avoidance that is described in the literature that I have read, which you would describe as fearful-avoidant. This is confusing me. Your style of avoidance seems almost like a zen state devoid of emotion. As for the skydiving...I'm happy if this has been an accomplishment for you, but I would say 2 things. 1) I question the severity of your heights "phobia" if you were to conquer it so easily and dramatically. I have a friend who is phobic of snakes, and she cannot look at a picture of a snake without freaking out. If she were to go into a snake pit without prior exposure therapy I don't know would happen but I doubt it would be good. 2) As a analogy...the relevant issue with a commitment phobia (and FA in general) is that I would guess that most of them don't realize that it is an issue. After all, if you aren't ready to commit to someone or something, the narrative goes that it must not have been right for you. ALSO- It's important to note that a dismissive's nervous system is OVER REGULATED. That's how we are wired. it is more possible for us to regulate emotion ourselves without external help. that's in the literature. it's detailed in the "healing dismissive attachment " thread. it's totally valid and true to my experience as a dismissive. it's way different than a person who needs exposure therapy like your friend afraid of snakes. it really is. i've been calm at the end of a gun barrel and that's not a bragging claim that is actually the tough part about being dismissive- panicking wouldn't have helped me but i stayed shut down for years over stuff that i would have been better off reacting to in a more normal way. But my nervous system likes to keep it chill. i have to work hard to not deactivate because of all that mess, i have to work against my nervous system. |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 12, 2018 18:23:42 GMT
Same here. Once in the relationship I can better see how compatible we are and we can talk about future possibilities. The act o being in a relationship provides the information required to assess deeper compatibility. What is his family like? How does he relate to his upbringing? How comfortable do we feel spending a weekend together? How about a holiday? How do we deal with finances? What do we want to build? Such things... If it is ok to ask, have you thought like this or you started to think like this while you got more secure? I have been mostly secure for quite a while, but I have always been open to a relationship on a theoretical level, even when mostly dismissive. In the serious relationship I had when I tested as dismissive, these things were actually all okay, but I had no idea that I was supposed to be vulnerable and share what was going on inside me. I think I was myself quite blind to the emotions inside me. |
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Post by epicgum on Sept 12, 2018 18:58:39 GMT
To be honest, the avoidance that you seem to experience is not the same as the avoidance that is described in the literature that I have read, which you would describe as fearful-avoidant. This is confusing me. Your style of avoidance seems almost like a zen state devoid of emotion. As for the skydiving...I'm happy if this has been an accomplishment for you, but I would say 2 things. 1) I question the severity of your heights "phobia" if you were to conquer it so easily and dramatically. I have a friend who is phobic of snakes, and she cannot look at a picture of a snake without freaking out. If she were to go into a snake pit without prior exposure therapy I don't know would happen but I doubt it would be good. 2) As a analogy...the relevant issue with a commitment phobia (and FA in general) is that I would guess that most of them don't realize that it is an issue. After all, if you aren't ready to commit to someone or something, the narrative goes that it must not have been right for you. i have to agree with mary here, the whole going in sideways thing just is so off putting to me. really, it sounds like you're dealing with a kindergartener. the difference here i think is that DA were formed by having to go it alone, and we do well with that. for the most part we really haven't had the experience of someone holding our hand and treating us like we can't handle straight up talking. the illustration you shared about snakes is not fitting for me. at all. i haven't met an avoidant when approached respectfully, and reasonably, that wouldn't lay it out pretty straight and appreciate the same. I had a fear of heights so i stood on the edge of a precipice and looked down, and forced myself to breathe and stay standing. i hated it. i wouldn't say i killed it completely but that's how i approach it. i go head first into what feels stronger than me. i'm not saying i am a hero. i'm saying that i feel threatened by what i fear so i try to beat that. now i am doing that with intimacy. It's interesting....you find this (my) "weakness" and "childishness" utterly repulsive...I wonder why you react that way? Do you find all weaknesses in other people repulsive? I feel hurt by this repulsion. But at the same time I have a similar feeling in regard to you and your (supposed) strength. It looks like a sad and empty caricature, cold, false and utterly uninteresting. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 19:03:06 GMT
nope, i don't see it that way.
not repulsion.
that is just not needed or comfortable for me.
it's not personal.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 19:05:16 GMT
hahah hateful!
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Post by epicgum on Sept 12, 2018 19:11:00 GMT
nope, i don't see it that way. not repulsion. that is just not needed or comfortable for me. it's not personal. I know--on some level--it's not personal to ME, but you definitely have a strong aversion to it. You've commented multiple times on this thread and have expressed a similar sentiment on another thread. |
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