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Post by epicgum on Sept 12, 2018 19:11:46 GMT
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 12, 2018 19:30:32 GMT
Yeah I agree with epicgum , a lot of the literature (aside from Jeb's obviously) and research on attachment styles doesn't even separate DA and FA, which is problematic. But even some that does seems to describe DA a bit differently, I wonder if they are just lumping people who are a bit FA but heavy on the DA into the DA category? Like this website that outlines 4 styles: secure, anxious, avoidant and fearful-avoidant: www.atlantacenterforcoupletherapy.com/relationships-the-avoidant-style/So then, when someone on this forum asks for insight or advice on a DA partner, I wonder if the person they are referring to is strictly "full DA" or could actually be at least a little bit fearful. It's a spectrum after all. In person I know 2 people well who I believe are "full DA" if we use the description Jeb gives and people like juniper and @mary . I know more people well who fit FA, but some still seem much closer to the DA side then the middle. One of those people even says they "don't believe in" FA and think only avoidant or anxious exist, interestingly. I've said it before, I simply cannot believe that FA is as rare as it's often claimed to be, I suspect that there has not been enough research on it and that testing could be improved. I also think there is a big difference between someone with an insecure attachment style who is oblivious to it and someone with a lot of self-insight who is working on earning security. I still feel a bit confused about DAs because sometimes I read things on here that makes them just sound chill and confident and direct and not reactive to fear, but I've also read things that to me appear to contradict that impression, like in another thread where stayhappy asked what it feels like when you are triggered to pull away, and juniper , your response sounded very emotional: So is it babying someone to not want to "scare" them when trying to establish more intimacy or comittment, or is it a good strategy to proceed gently to lessen the chances of them deactivating that strongly? |
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Post by stayhappy on Sept 12, 2018 19:45:53 GMT
I’m reposting this because I think it can be interesting: ”It is important to note that people with anxious attachment style and people with dismissive-avoidant attachment style can show traits of the opposite insecure attachment style that may cause them to believe they are fearful-avoidant. For example, Ben's mother was very smothering in childhood but his father would alternate between giving him attention and being completely dismissive during periods of time when he was under high pressure at work. Ben scores highly on the dismissive-avoidance scale as the relationship with his mother was most influential to him. However, he does also have some anxious characteristics that he developed from his father's behavior towards him. He is mostly attracted towards anxious women therefore he stays in his dismissive-avoidant attachment style for the majority of the time. Occasionally he meets a women he is attracted to who is more dismissive-avoidant than him, which polarizes him over to his anxious side. He then finds himself using some anxious attachment behaviors to try and get her attention. It does not mean that he has the fearful-avoidant attachment style. Fear was not an emotion that he experienced during childhood much, the negative emotions he mostly felt where feeling suffocated, annoyed or rejected. People with fearful-avoidant attachment display much more unpredictable behavior.” www.google.se/amp/s/www.emotionenhancement.com/single-post/Attachment-Styles-In-Adults/The-Fearful-Avoidant-Attachment-Style%3f_amp_ |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 19:46:20 GMT
Yeah I agree with epicgum , a lot of the literature (aside from Jeb's obviously) and research on attachment styles doesn't even separate DA and FA, which is problematic. But even some that does seems to describe DA a bit differently, I wonder if they are just lumping people who are a bit FA but heavy on the DA into the DA category? Like this website that outlines 4 styles: secure, anxious, avoidant and fearful-avoidant: www.atlantacenterforcoupletherapy.com/relationships-the-avoidant-style/So then, when someone on this forum asks for insight or advice on a DA partner, I wonder if the person they are referring to is strictly "full DA" or could actually be at least a little bit fearful. It's a spectrum after all. In person I know 2 people well who I believe are "full DA" if we use the description Jeb gives and people like juniper and @mary . I know more people well who fit FA, but some still seem much closer to the DA side then the middle. One of those people even says they "don't believe in" FA and think only avoidant or anxious exist, interestingly. I've said it before, I simply cannot believe that FA is as rare as it's often claimed to be, I suspect that there has not been enough research on it and that testing could be improved. I also think there is a big difference between someone with an insecure attachment style who is oblivious to it and someone with a lot of self-insight who is working on earning security. I still feel a bit confused about DAs because sometimes I read things on here that makes them just sound chill and confident and direct and not reactive to fear, but I've also read things that to me appear to contradict that impression, like in another thread where stayhappy asked what it feels like when you are triggered to pull away, and juniper , your response sounded very emotional: So is it babying someone to not want to "scare" them when trying to establish more intimacy or comittment, or is it a good strategy to proceed gently to lessen the chances of them deactivating that strongly? i don't think that a discussion about how to proceed/if to proceed is triggering or scary. i have not deactivated over any such discussion: deep intimacy with my partner does trigger deactivation in me, but that's in an established intimate relationship where we have made a lot of headway into interdependency. that's terrifying! but this discussion referred to in the OP is not of that level at all in my perspective. three DA here said they prefer the direct approach. that's all, it's not a very upsetting discussion in y mind. |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 20:40:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 20:40:56 GMT
nope, i don't see it that way. not repulsion. that is just not needed or comfortable for me. it's not personal. I know--on some level--it's not personal to ME, but you definitely have a strong aversion to it. You've commented multiple times on this thread and have expressed a similar sentiment on another thread. i am sorry i came off that way, i think i am really confused about why the question in the OP has garnered such a kid glove approach, is all. my reaction is about this approach to this particular question, as from what i understand, the involvement is casual and even the OP doesn't seem to have a really strong feeling about it. I would think it's a very straightforward discussion and isn't of the deep and intimate nature. Very unlike being already in an exclusive intimate relationship. the question here seems to be as fundamental as : do we continue or do i move away? so that's what i dont understand. treating that like a snake phobia where a person is terrified is really not fitting, in my perspective. it seems very exaggerated. When it comes to fear, my fear of intimacy, and my deactivation and feeling i have no skin, THAT'S like standing on the edge of a precipice. Having already bonded so deeply, and realizing that i love my partner and care about him so much that it scares me to lose him, that's the tough stuff. but we have been involved exclusively with growing intimacy for a couple years. we aren't at the "do you want to explore this more ?" stage. it's way past that and the intimacy has gotten deep in every way. When it comes to non-intimacy related dangers, that's not very difficult at all. bonding and becoming emotionally close to a partner in a healthy and vulnerable way is as difficult as standing on a precipice for sure. only more so. the snake illustration just doesn't make sense to me, or doing activities to ease into this conversation, i feel it's much simpler than that from what OP described. I wonder, is it also a difference in approach to relationship, where an anxious or FA person would feel more intensely and be more triggered in the situation (of The Talk) ? that could be it. |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 12, 2018 20:52:01 GMT
So, putting my AP-related anxiety about communicating my needs aside, in my experience -- DA partners have preferred directness and not panicked about a "what are we doing" conversation, even if what they wanted was non-committal. FAs have immediately panicked, shut down, and can't handle it unless approached very cautiously -- especially if there was any whiff of anxiety/AP triggering on my side.
Talking about it when everyone is well-rested/fed/relaxed is a good idea either way. There also is really something to the self-awareness of the avoidant and if they have been working on it. The DA I have top of mind was VERY self-aware of his destructive patterns (emotionally harmful to partners, coped with issues by excess drinking so harmful to himself) and had actively decided he had no interest in doing any work or ever changing. But he was calm, concise, and clear in talking about it. The FAs I have in mind had zero self-awareness and were totally disconnected from their feelings so 85% of serious conversations were a total struggle. Occasionally I got the approach timing right, and then the kid-gloves approach worked and they could participate in the conversation without getting triggered and shut down.
stayhappy , I think you have to be sure about where your partner falls (has he ever taken an attachment quiz or anything?) and then consider taking the advice given by the people who have that as their primary style. You may also consider if seeing someone with an insecure attachment style is something you want long-term, since as you can see there's extra work to put in no matter what insecure style someone may have. |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 20:52:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 20:52:40 GMT
Yeah I agree with epicgum , a lot of the literature (aside from Jeb's obviously) and research on attachment styles doesn't even separate DA and FA, which is problematic. But even some that does seems to describe DA a bit differently, I wonder if they are just lumping people who are a bit FA but heavy on the DA into the DA category? Like this website that outlines 4 styles: secure, anxious, avoidant and fearful-avoidant: www.atlantacenterforcoupletherapy.com/relationships-the-avoidant-style/So then, when someone on this forum asks for insight or advice on a DA partner, I wonder if the person they are referring to is strictly "full DA" or could actually be at least a little bit fearful. It's a spectrum after all. In person I know 2 people well who I believe are "full DA" if we use the description Jeb gives and people like juniper and @mary . I know more people well who fit FA, but some still seem much closer to the DA side then the middle. One of those people even says they "don't believe in" FA and think only avoidant or anxious exist, interestingly. I've said it before, I simply cannot believe that FA is as rare as it's often claimed to be, I suspect that there has not been enough research on it and that testing could be improved. I also think there is a big difference between someone with an insecure attachment style who is oblivious to it and someone with a lot of self-insight who is working on earning security. I still feel a bit confused about DAs because sometimes I read things on here that makes them just sound chill and confident and direct and not reactive to fear, but I've also read things that to me appear to contradict that impression, like in another thread where stayhappy asked what it feels like when you are triggered to pull away, and juniper , your response sounded very emotional: So is it babying someone to not want to "scare" them when trying to establish more intimacy or comittment, or is it a good strategy to proceed gently to lessen the chances of them deactivating that strongly? the discussion about confidence and fearlessness has come up before- and i get why it's confusing. The fear, for me, comes in around interdependence and wishing and hoping for true love and intimacy. that's my achilles heel. I don't experience a lot of fear around other things in life. This is most likely due to nervous system deactivation. I have had severe phobia, such as to heigh and at one point i was claustroohibic. Both of those intense fears i dealt with by forcing exposure , with claustrophobia i made myself take elevators instead of stairs when i was a medical courier in hospitals, just to try to get past the panic of it. it did work. and the precipice exercise was helpful to me but i wouldn't say the fear of heights is gone. but i know i can cope with it. I hate to fly because i have to cope with both heights and small space (the cabin ceiling feels like it closes on me) but if i do fly i practice mindfulness of the fear and make it an exercise. So, the confidence and calmness of a dismissive stops where intimacy, true vulnerability begins. It's a very painful but precious experience to me to lay next to my partner when i feel raw, but i have to be as brave then as i am on the edge of a precipice. other times, i just shut down, in deactivation. That's the nervous system over-regulation that is extremely isolating once i have gained awareness. As far as being calm in a crisis, or under pressure, or in the face of alarming circumstances, that is the up side to having a calm nervous system. The down side, like i mentioned, is that i have been able to without trying, remain stoic in very adverse situations that i wish i would have fled from. I wish i could have fled. But i froze. I have been insulated from feelings that would have guided me to a better life. that's been very sad for me to reconcile. |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 20:55:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 20:55:07 GMT
So, putting my AP-related anxiety about communicating my needs aside, in my experience -- DA partners have preferred directness and not panicked about a "what are we doing" conversation, even if what they wanted was non-committal. FAs have immediately panicked, shut down, and can't handle it unless approached very cautiously -- especially if there was any whiff of anxiety/AP triggering on my side.
Talking about it when everyone is well-rested/fed/relaxed is a good idea either way. There also is really something to the self-awareness of the avoidant and if they have been working on it. The DA I have top of mind was VERY self-aware of his destructive patterns (emotionally harmful to partners, coped with issues by excess drinking so harmful to himself) and had actively decided he had no interest in doing any work or ever changing. But he was calm, concise, and clear in talking about it. The FAs I have in mind had zero self-awareness and were totally disconnected from their feelings so 85% of serious conversations were a total struggle. Occasionally I got the approach timing right, and then the kid-gloves approach worked and they could participate in the conversation without getting triggered and shut down.
stayhappy , I think you have to be sure about where your partner falls (has he ever taken an attachment quiz or anything?) and then consider taking the advice given by the people who have that as their primary style. You may also consider if seeing someone with an insecure attachment style is something you want long-term, since as you can see there's extra work to put in no matter what insecure style someone may have. that's what i kind of thought- the approach of an FA to this is very different to the approach of a DA and that's why epicgum 's perspective was so baffling to me. I don't know any FA personally but here you mention that they reacted strongly to the "what are we" talk my partner and i found this easy, and so do my DA pals. i would never have considered this to be a scary conversation. and, as stayhappy said the partner is DA, i just gave the perspective i have- the kid gloves is too much and seems patronizing to me. we are all different- just speaking about DA, as a DA  thanks for the clarity from your experience! |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 12, 2018 21:13:28 GMT
Juniper, the FA approach used to jive with me better and set me off less, actually, because the AP is often equally petrified to have these conversations (related to the fear of rejection / abandonment), so if everyone seems scared I suppose it also seems like they are on equal footing. Now I'm just like, why do simple conversations about needs have to become ordeals?
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 21:14:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by stayhappy on Sept 12, 2018 21:14:19 GMT
I think it’s interesting to read all your comments about having “the talk” and how differently styles react to it. Hope no ones get sad here because we all are here to learn ❤️
I know that my partner is afraid sometimes. As I wrote somewhere here is the forum he actually confessed those feelings for some weeks ago.
As a secure having “deep talk” is not something that stress me or makes me afraid but I know he is not so comfortable with that. I think we have get closer to each other and the most honest thing I can do with respect for him and me is to talk about what we want. It would not feel good to just move away in January without even giving it a try.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 21:21:32 GMT
juniper , the FA approach used to jive with me better and set me off less, actually, because the AP is often equally petrified to have these conversations (related to the fear of rejection / abandonment), so if everyone seems scared I suppose it also seems like they are on equal footing. Now I'm just like, why do simple conversations about needs have to become ordeals?
Just to provide you with an example of how deep the fear can go: the last conversation like that I had with an FA, I let him know ahead of time, we sat down with some nice drinks in a nice relaxed setting, and as soon as I opened my mouth to talk before anything even came out he said -- wait, can we postpone? Or better idea, can you just write it down? Hand write me a letter, that will be best. I did not write him a letter and handled it securely on the spot, relieved that I no longer found that behavior triggering for me  yeah, i see the similarity then for AP and DA. its very different obviously for a DA in this circumstance. But again, i understand the partner in question to be DA (at least presumed to be by OP) so thought it would be good to weigh in as DA. i wasn't sure if the other DA here would see it the same way i did but the consensus seems to be, this isn't huge and direct would be awesome. so, i mean, that's why we have the forum, we just have to speak from where we are and maybe it's helpful to get the perspectives. now, i would say that if this partner is way more attached then OP is describing or than anyone knows, the idea of moving could threaten him emotionally and he could deactivate- but i didn't get that impression. it seems like the temporary nature of the involvement is kind of established and this is just a "would you like to progress it or no?" conversation. that's how i read it. OP seems very casual about it. |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 12, 2018 21:33:47 GMT
But again, i understand the partner in question to be DA (at least presumed to be by OP) so thought it would be good to weigh in as DA. i wasn't sure if the other DA here would see it the same way i did but the consensus seems to be, this isn't huge and direct would be awesome.
Oh definitely, this is in the DA part of the forum and she got good answers from both sides. That's why I suggested being sure of his style first. But stayhappy , you'll find out if your partner is DA or FA by how he responds to the conversation 
Let us know how it goes. I think it will be okay either way because you are sounding secure about it! |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 12, 2018 21:45:55 GMT
now, i would say that if this partner is way more attached then OP is describing or than anyone knows, the idea of moving could threaten him emotionally and he could deactivate- but i didn't get that impression. it seems like the temporary nature of the involvement is kind of established and this is just a "would you like to progress it or no?" conversation. that's how i read it. OP seems very casual about it. I would also not talk about moving. It can be threathening to FA or go in the direction of manipulation, which is an allergy of mine as a DA. Career planning suffices as a description and the need for clarity is obvious in that context. To be honest, someone mentioning they are looking for a committed relationship if there is compatibility, even early on, would not trigger me. My last boyfriend did, and it was honest and upfront but not pressuring. I would have an issue if someone has prematurely decided to want a relationship with me or is pretending to be my friend while waiting for a drunken fling. Any stealth moves creep me out at least a little. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 21:47:27 GMT
I think it’s interesting to read all your comments about having “the talk” and how differently styles react to it. Hope no ones get sad here because we all are here to learn ❤️ I know that my partner is afraid sometimes. As I wrote somewhere here is the forum he actually confessed those feelings for some weeks ago. As a secure having “deep talk” is not something that stress me or makes me afraid but I know he is not so comfortable with that. I think we have get closer to each other and the most honest thing I can do with respect for him and me is to talk about what we want. It would not feel good to just move away in January without even giving it a try. to me, it sounds as if there is something worth exploring , with the level of involvement you do have, and i'd love to hear how it goes! i think alexandra made some excellent points also, as to what to consider. good luck and let us know! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 21:49:53 GMT
now, i would say that if this partner is way more attached then OP is describing or than anyone knows, the idea of moving could threaten him emotionally and he could deactivate- but i didn't get that impression. it seems like the temporary nature of the involvement is kind of established and this is just a "would you like to progress it or no?" conversation. that's how i read it. OP seems very casual about it. I would also not talk about moving. It can be threathening to FA or go in the direction of manipulation, which is an allergy of mine as a DA. Career planning suffices as a description and the need for clarity is obvious in that context. To be honest, someone mentioning they are looking for a committed relationship if there is compatibility, even early on, would not trigger me. My last boyfriend did, and it was honest and upfront but not pressuring. I would have an issue if someone has prematurely decided to want a relationship with me or is pretending to be my friend while waiting for a drunken fling. Any stealth moves creep me out at least a little. "any stealth moves creep me out at least a little." i snorted 😂 |
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