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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 21:56:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 21:56:51 GMT
But again, i understand the partner in question to be DA (at least presumed to be by OP) so thought it would be good to weigh in as DA. i wasn't sure if the other DA here would see it the same way i did but the consensus seems to be, this isn't huge and direct would be awesome.
Oh definitely, this is in the DA part of the forum and she got good answers from both sides. That's why I suggested being sure of his style first. But stayhappy , you'll find out if your partner is DA or FA by how he responds to the conversation 
Let us know how it goes. I think it will be okay either way because you are sounding secure about it! hahah right, this is the Litmus Test!!! 😬😜 |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 22:02:59 GMT
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Post by stayhappy on Sept 12, 2018 22:02:59 GMT
So, putting my AP-related anxiety about communicating my needs aside, in my experience -- DA partners have preferred directness and not panicked about a "what are we doing" conversation, even if what they wanted was non-committal. FAs have immediately panicked, shut down, and can't handle it unless approached very cautiously -- especially if there was any whiff of anxiety/AP triggering on my side.
Talking about it when everyone is well-rested/fed/relaxed is a good idea either way. There also is really something to the self-awareness of the avoidant and if they have been working on it. The DA I have top of mind was VERY self-aware of his destructive patterns (emotionally harmful to partners, coped with issues by excess drinking so harmful to himself) and had actively decided he had no interest in doing any work or ever changing. But he was calm, concise, and clear in talking about it. The FAs I have in mind had zero self-awareness and were totally disconnected from their feelings so 85% of serious conversations were a total struggle. Occasionally I got the approach timing right, and then the kid-gloves approach worked and they could participate in the conversation without getting triggered and shut down.
stayhappy , I think you have to be sure about where your partner falls (has he ever taken an attachment quiz or anything?) and then consider taking the advice given by the people who have that as their primary style. You may also consider if seeing someone with an insecure attachment style is something you want long-term, since as you can see there's extra work to put in no matter what insecure style someone may have. I have told him about attachment theory once. I asked if he could identify himself in any of those styles and efter somedays he answered he hasn’t a good answer to that. Efter that we never talked about this again. I can’t be sure if he is DA or FA, it can be a little bit confusing sometimes. I think this thing about wanting things to be casual but treating me as a girlfriend, not saying I love you but showing love and he just pulls away when things are good... it is not so many conflicts actually. I was confused in the start. I thought he is not into me or playing games... when I got to know about attachment theory I could understand better what was going on. The “sad” thing about knowing about attachment theory is that I don’t want to “judge” people by their attachment style and neither just using this as a reference to get a good partner. I was in a long relationship with a secure guy who cheated on me. Yes we had a harmonic life but both being secure was not enough in that case. We are more than our attachment style! I would never stay in an abusive relationship, in a relationship where I don’t feel respected, loved and heard. If we have any problem in my relationship my first reaction is to think “how can we fix it?” And if my partner thinks in the same way then I’m pretty sure we are going far  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 22:08:56 GMT
So, putting my AP-related anxiety about communicating my needs aside, in my experience -- DA partners have preferred directness and not panicked about a "what are we doing" conversation, even if what they wanted was non-committal. FAs have immediately panicked, shut down, and can't handle it unless approached very cautiously -- especially if there was any whiff of anxiety/AP triggering on my side.
Talking about it when everyone is well-rested/fed/relaxed is a good idea either way. There also is really something to the self-awareness of the avoidant and if they have been working on it. The DA I have top of mind was VERY self-aware of his destructive patterns (emotionally harmful to partners, coped with issues by excess drinking so harmful to himself) and had actively decided he had no interest in doing any work or ever changing. But he was calm, concise, and clear in talking about it. The FAs I have in mind had zero self-awareness and were totally disconnected from their feelings so 85% of serious conversations were a total struggle. Occasionally I got the approach timing right, and then the kid-gloves approach worked and they could participate in the conversation without getting triggered and shut down.
stayhappy , I think you have to be sure about where your partner falls (has he ever taken an attachment quiz or anything?) and then consider taking the advice given by the people who have that as their primary style. You may also consider if seeing someone with an insecure attachment style is something you want long-term, since as you can see there's extra work to put in no matter what insecure style someone may have. I have told him about attachment theory once. I asked if he could identify himself in any of those styles and efter somedays he answered he hasn’t a good answer to that. Efter that we never talked about this again. I can’t be sure if he is DA or FA, it can be a little bit confusing sometimes. I think this thing about wanting things to be casual but treating me as a girlfriend, not saying I love you but showing love and he just pulls away when things are good... it is not so many conflicts actually. I was confused in the start. I thought he is not into me or playing games... when I got to know about attachment theory I could understand better what was going on. The “sad” thing about knowing about attachment theory is that I don’t want to “judge” people by their attachment style and neither just using this as a reference to get a good partner. I was in a long relationship with a secure guy who cheated on me. Yes we had a harmonic life but both being secure was not enough in that case. We are more than our attachment style! I would never stay in an abusive relationship, in a relationship where I don’t feel respected, loved and heard. If we have any problem in my relationship my first reaction is to think “how can we fix it?” And if my partner thinks in the same way then I’m pretty sure we are going far love it. how can we fix it? my partner and i have gotten good at this question. if two people want to wok together, yes, they can go far! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 22:33:08 GMT
nope, i don't see it that way. not repulsion. that is just not needed or comfortable for me. it's not personal. I know--on some level--it's not personal to ME, but you definitely have a strong aversion to it. You've commented multiple times on this thread and have expressed a similar sentiment on another thread. and in case you are mentioning the thread of kristyrose's - there is quite a long backstory there and seriously, looking out for herself and not being concerned with "scaring him off" is in her best interest, it's been rough on her and the more empowered she is the better she feels and the happier she is. i've read it back into the history quite a bit before i responded to her.  |
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 12, 2018 22:44:05 GMT
I’m reposting this because I think it can be interesting: ”It is important to note that people with anxious attachment style and people with dismissive-avoidant attachment style can show traits of the opposite insecure attachment style that may cause them to believe they are fearful-avoidant. For example, Ben's mother was very smothering in childhood but his father would alternate between giving him attention and being completely dismissive during periods of time when he was under high pressure at work. Ben scores highly on the dismissive-avoidance scale as the relationship with his mother was most influential to him. However, he does also have some anxious characteristics that he developed from his father's behavior towards him. He is mostly attracted towards anxious women therefore he stays in his dismissive-avoidant attachment style for the majority of the time. Occasionally he meets a women he is attracted to who is more dismissive-avoidant than him, which polarizes him over to his anxious side. He then finds himself using some anxious attachment behaviors to try and get her attention. It does not mean that he has the fearful-avoidant attachment style. Fear was not an emotion that he experienced during childhood much, the negative emotions he mostly felt where feeling suffocated, annoyed or rejected. People with fearful-avoidant attachment display much more unpredictable behavior.” www.google.se/amp/s/www.emotionenhancement.com/single-post/Attachment-Styles-In-Adults/The-Fearful-Avoidant-Attachment-Style%3f_amp_Yeah, it's interesting, I saw that and it's definitely not what's going on with myself or the people I know well who I believe are FA and/or believe themselves to be FA. With me it was kind of the opposite, that because once in a while I am pulled into a very AP mode I was just looking at those situations and ignoring all my FA-ness at first. I think there are others like me. And there are some key differences between the typical DA and typical FA, for example FAs have low self-esteem and feel generally, well, fearful. Fear was definitely the emotion I felt most as a child. I'm talking about people who act more consistently FA as opposed to someone who pretty much always feels DA until they get a bit AP in a particular relationship. Another reason I think that FAs are more common than Jeb says, rather than assuming it's solely that I attract all the FAs in town, is that I have come across some studies that found a much higher percentage of participants to be FA than the oft-quoted 5% or 7%. I'd like to see it studied more. So, putting my AP-related anxiety about communicating my needs aside, in my experience -- DA partners have preferred directness and not panicked about a "what are we doing" conversation, even if what they wanted was non-committal. FAs have immediately panicked, shut down, and can't handle it unless approached very cautiously -- especially if there was any whiff of anxiety/AP triggering on my side.
Talking about it when everyone is well-rested/fed/relaxed is a good idea either way. There also is really something to the self-awareness of the avoidant and if they have been working on it. The DA I have top of mind was VERY self-aware of his destructive patterns (emotionally harmful to partners, coped with issues by excess drinking so harmful to himself) and had actively decided he had no interest in doing any work or ever changing. But he was calm, concise, and clear in talking about it. The FAs I have in mind had zero self-awareness and were totally disconnected from their feelings so 85% of serious conversations were a total struggle. Occasionally I got the approach timing right, and then the kid-gloves approach worked and they could participate in the conversation without getting triggered and shut down.
stayhappy , I think you have to be sure about where your partner falls (has he ever taken an attachment quiz or anything?) and then consider taking the advice given by the people who have that as their primary style. You may also consider if seeing someone with an insecure attachment style is something you want long-term, since as you can see there's extra work to put in no matter what insecure style someone may have. This is exactly what I wanted to say but you already articulated it perfectly. Me talking to a DA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to see each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. DA: That's fair. Let's get together for dinner tonight and discuss it. Pick you up at 8? [Later during dinner...]I don't want to label what we are doing as "dating" if to you that means that we would make regular plans or I am obligated to stay in touch. I enjoy going out with you and having sex with you, but I don't want to feel like I am obligated to anyone in any way. If you are ok with being friends with benefits that would be great, but if not I understand. Me talking to an FA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to see each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. FA: [*freezes silently for minutes looking scared*] Can we talk about this later? I forgot I have to go on a 20k run. [Later...][*doesn't reply to texts, likes and comments on my posts on Facebook*] [Much later..][*sends me a song on a different messaging app*] |
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The talk
Sept 12, 2018 22:51:19 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 22:51:19 GMT
I’m reposting this because I think it can be interesting: ”It is important to note that people with anxious attachment style and people with dismissive-avoidant attachment style can show traits of the opposite insecure attachment style that may cause them to believe they are fearful-avoidant. For example, Ben's mother was very smothering in childhood but his father would alternate between giving him attention and being completely dismissive during periods of time when he was under high pressure at work. Ben scores highly on the dismissive-avoidance scale as the relationship with his mother was most influential to him. However, he does also have some anxious characteristics that he developed from his father's behavior towards him. He is mostly attracted towards anxious women therefore he stays in his dismissive-avoidant attachment style for the majority of the time. Occasionally he meets a women he is attracted to who is more dismissive-avoidant than him, which polarizes him over to his anxious side. He then finds himself using some anxious attachment behaviors to try and get her attention. It does not mean that he has the fearful-avoidant attachment style. Fear was not an emotion that he experienced during childhood much, the negative emotions he mostly felt where feeling suffocated, annoyed or rejected. People with fearful-avoidant attachment display much more unpredictable behavior.” www.google.se/amp/s/www.emotionenhancement.com/single-post/Attachment-Styles-In-Adults/The-Fearful-Avoidant-Attachment-Style%3f_amp_Yeah, it's interesting, I saw that and it's definitely not what's going on with myself or the people I know well who I believe are FA and/or believe themselves to be FA. With me it was kind of the opposite, that because once in a while I am pulled into a very AP mode I was just looking at those situations and ignoring all my FA-ness at first. I think there are others like me. And there are some key differences between the typical DA and typical FA, for example FAs have low self-esteem and feel generally, well, fearful. Fear was definitely the emotion I felt most as a child. I'm talking about people who act more consistently FA as opposed to someone who pretty much always feels DA until they get a bit AP in a particular relationship. Another reason I think that FAs are more common than Jeb says, rather than assuming it's solely that I attract all the FAs in town, is that I have come across some studies that found a much higher percentage of participants to be FA than the oft-quoted 5% or 7%. I'd like to see it studied more. So, putting my AP-related anxiety about communicating my needs aside, in my experience -- DA partners have preferred directness and not panicked about a "what are we doing" conversation, even if what they wanted was non-committal. FAs have immediately panicked, shut down, and can't handle it unless approached very cautiously -- especially if there was any whiff of anxiety/AP triggering on my side.
Talking about it when everyone is well-rested/fed/relaxed is a good idea either way. There also is really something to the self-awareness of the avoidant and if they have been working on it. The DA I have top of mind was VERY self-aware of his destructive patterns (emotionally harmful to partners, coped with issues by excess drinking so harmful to himself) and had actively decided he had no interest in doing any work or ever changing. But he was calm, concise, and clear in talking about it. The FAs I have in mind had zero self-awareness and were totally disconnected from their feelings so 85% of serious conversations were a total struggle. Occasionally I got the approach timing right, and then the kid-gloves approach worked and they could participate in the conversation without getting triggered and shut down.
stayhappy , I think you have to be sure about where your partner falls (has he ever taken an attachment quiz or anything?) and then consider taking the advice given by the people who have that as their primary style. You may also consider if seeing someone with an insecure attachment style is something you want long-term, since as you can see there's extra work to put in no matter what insecure style someone may have. This is exactly what I wanted to say but you already articulated it perfectly. Me talking to a DA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. DA: That's fair. Let's get together for dinner tonight and discuss it. Pick you up at 8? [Later during dinner...]I don't want to label what we are doing as "dating" if to you that means that we would make regular plans or I am obligated to stay in touch. I enjoy going out with you and having sex with you, but I don't want to feel like I am obligated to anyone in any way. If you are ok with being friends with benefits that would be great, but if not I understand. Me talking to an FA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. FA: [*freezes silently for minutes looking scared*] Can we talk about this later? I forgot I have to go on a 20k run. [Later...][*doesn't reply to texts, likes and comments on my posts on Facebook*] [Much later..][*sends me a song on a different messaging app*] i'm really skeptical about the rarity of FA also! I might be skeptical about the frequency of DA, lol. of course, there are DA with more anxiety.... mine is very low, as is @mary, and also goldilocks, although goldi did test with more FA these days which she has found to be explained by moving more toward secure, it's like a little bump for some DA if i understood her correctly. so yes there is a spectrum but i do think there are more FA than currently believed. the literature isn't all golden- it evolves. |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 12, 2018 22:53:35 GMT
Me talking to a DA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. DA: That's fair. Let's get together for dinner tonight and discuss it. Pick you up at 8? [Later during dinner...]I don't want to label what we are doing as "dating" if to you that means that we would make regular plans or I am obligated to stay in touch. I enjoy going out with you and having sex with you, but I don't want to feel like I am obligated to anyone in any way. If you are ok with being friends with benefits that would be great, but if not I understand. Me talking to an FA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. FA: [*freezes silently for minutes looking scared*] Can we talk about this later? I forgot I have to go on a 20k run. [Later...][*doesn't reply to texts, likes and comments on my posts on Facebook*] [Much later..][*sends me a song on a different messaging app*] I just laughed out loud, and said, "yep!" out loud. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 22:59:03 GMT
Me talking to a DA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. DA: That's fair. Let's get together for dinner tonight and discuss it. Pick you up at 8? [Later during dinner...]I don't want to label what we are doing as "dating" if to you that means that we would make regular plans or I am obligated to stay in touch. I enjoy going out with you and having sex with you, but I don't want to feel like I am obligated to anyone in any way. If you are ok with being friends with benefits that would be great, but if not I understand. Me talking to an FA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. FA: [*freezes silently for minutes looking scared*] Can we talk about this later? I forgot I have to go on a 20k run. [Later...][*doesn't reply to texts, likes and comments on my posts on Facebook*] [Much later..][*sends me a song on a different messaging app*] I just laughed out loud, and said, "yep!" out loud. yes, this is a good portrayal! and to my point- this is not a scary conversation for DA and they would shoot straight. hand holding the DA would seem silly. that got a big reaction on this thread. but this is how it is, you said it yourself. Does this DA need the sideways approach? not for this |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 23:02:34 GMT
"DA: That's fair. Let's get together for dinner tonight and discuss it. Pick you up at 8?
[Later during dinner...]I don't want to label what we are doing as "dating" if to you that means that we would make regular plans or I am obligated to stay in touch. I enjoy going out with you and having sex with you, but I don't want to feel like I am obligated to anyone in any way. If you are ok with being friends with benefits that would be great, but if not I understand."
Let's just say I have said several versions of this answer in my life LOL!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 23:06:13 GMT
"DA: That's fair. Let's get together for dinner tonight and discuss it. Pick you up at 8? [Later during dinner...]I don't want to label what we are doing as "dating" if to you that means that we would make regular plans or I am obligated to stay in touch. I enjoy going out with you and having sex with you, but I don't want to feel like I am obligated to anyone in any way. If you are ok with being friends with benefits that would be great, but if not I understand." Let's just say I have said several versions of this answer in my life LOL! it's honest, and i think totally fair- gives the questioner real information to make a decision with. |
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Post by kristyrose on Sept 12, 2018 23:20:44 GMT
I'd like to chime in and say this is an excellent thread! The example you laid out, happyidiot, is so spot on with my FA ex! wow. I had to chuckle! |
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Post by epicgum on Sept 12, 2018 23:24:46 GMT
I know--on some level--it's not personal to ME, but you definitely have a strong aversion to it. You've commented multiple times on this thread and have expressed a similar sentiment on another thread. and in case you are mentioning the thread of kristyrose 's - there is quite a long backstory there and seriously, looking out for herself and not being concerned with "scaring him off" is in her best interest, it's been rough on her and the more empowered she is the better she feels and the happier she is. i've read it back into the history quite a bit before i responded to her. Look, I assume you don't mean ill towards me juniper, I know that I don't towards you. Seeing your own dysfunction ridiculed is never a positive experience, especially when you are trying to help others understand this view. I'm sure you can empathize. I'd love to explore this further, but right now I'm exhausted. |
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 12, 2018 23:29:06 GMT
I just laughed out loud, and said, "yep!" out loud. yes, this is a good portrayal! and to my point- this is not a scary conversation for DA and they would shoot straight. hand holding the DA would seem silly. that got a big reaction on this thread. but this is how it is, you said it yourself. Does this DA need the sideways approach? not for this I'm always fascinated by these discussions about the differences between FA and DA people. Do you think that maybe some people whose style is basically DA are a bit more FA-ish than others and could be somewhere in between the two guys I dated who I quoted above though? I also wonder, even if a DA may feel no conscious fear about discussing the relationship, if they feel pressured might they still react from an avoidant place of "well I guess I don't want to be part of this at all now"? I think you can "scare" someone off without that person actually feeling afraid, I took it more as a turn of phrase. EDIT: sorry if this thread is going off on a tangent stayhappy |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 23:33:08 GMT
and in case you are mentioning the thread of kristyrose 's - there is quite a long backstory there and seriously, looking out for herself and not being concerned with "scaring him off" is in her best interest, it's been rough on her and the more empowered she is the better she feels and the happier she is. i've read it back into the history quite a bit before i responded to her. Look, I assume you don't mean ill towards me juniper, I know that I don't towards you. Seeing your own dysfunction ridiculed is never a positive experience, especially when you are trying to help others understand this view. I'm sure you can empathize. I'd love to explore this further, but right now I'm exhausted. aw epicgum, i didn't mean ridicule at all!! i am simply saying, the approach is inappropriate for a DA. i don't think the sideways gentle approach is bad in general. it is for a DA. i will try to find the place in the thread about dismissivea that speaks to this- to the narrative style and communication style of DA. it's very direct and basic, non-emotional for dealing with topics that need to be solved. happyidiot that thread will illuminate that for you maybe too. it's a quirk of DA, the bare bones no nonsense talk style. |
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Post by stayhappy on Sept 12, 2018 23:35:29 GMT
yes, this is a good portrayal! and to my point- this is not a scary conversation for DA and they would shoot straight. hand holding the DA would seem silly. that got a big reaction on this thread. but this is how it is, you said it yourself. Does this DA need the sideways approach? not for this I'm always fascinated by these discussions about the differences between FA and DA people. Do you think that maybe some people whose style is basically DA are a bit more FA-ish than others and could be somewhere in between the two guys I dated who I quoted above though? I also wonder, even if a DA may feel no conscious fear about discussing the relationship, if they feel pressured might they still react from an avoidant place of "well I guess I don't want to be part of this at all now"? I think you can "scare" someone off without that person actually feeling afraid, I took it more as a turn of phrase. EDIT: sorry if this thread is going off on a tangent stayhappyNo need to apologize! I am enjoying the discussion as well 😊 |
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