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Post by happyidiot on Sept 12, 2018 23:43:22 GMT
the discussion about confidence and fearlessness has come up before- and i get why it's confusing. The fear, for me, comes in around interdependence and wishing and hoping for true love and intimacy. that's my achilles heel. I don't experience a lot of fear around other things in life. This is most likely due to nervous system deactivation. I have had severe phobia, such as to heigh and at one point i was claustroohibic. Both of those intense fears i dealt with by forcing exposure , with claustrophobia i made myself take elevators instead of stairs when i was a medical courier in hospitals, just to try to get past the panic of it. it did work. and the precipice exercise was helpful to me but i wouldn't say the fear of heights is gone. but i know i can cope with it. I hate to fly because i have to cope with both heights and small space (the cabin ceiling feels like it closes on me) but if i do fly i practice mindfulness of the fear and make it an exercise. So, the confidence and calmness of a dismissive stops where intimacy, true vulnerability begins. It's a very painful but precious experience to me to lay next to my partner when i feel raw, but i have to be as brave then as i am on the edge of a precipice. other times, i just shut down, in deactivation. That's the nervous system over-regulation that is extremely isolating once i have gained awareness. As far as being calm in a crisis, or under pressure, or in the face of alarming circumstances, that is the up side to having a calm nervous system. The down side, like i mentioned, is that i have been able to without trying, remain stoic in very adverse situations that i wish i would have fled from. I wish i could have fled. But i froze. I have been insulated from feelings that would have guided me to a better life. that's been very sad for me to reconcile. That makes sense. One more question, do you think some people could have a much lower threshold than others for what they find intimate and vulnerable and would cause them to deactivate? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 23:44:31 GMT
I'm always fascinated by these discussions about the differences between FA and DA people. Do you think that maybe some people whose style is basically DA are a bit more FA-ish than others and could be somewhere in between the two guys I dated who I quoted above though? I also wonder, even if a DA may feel no conscious fear about discussing the relationship, if they feel pressured might they still react from an avoidant place of "well I guess I don't want to be part of this at all now"? I think you can "scare" someone off without that person actually feeling afraid, I took it more as a turn of phrase. EDIT: sorry if this thread is going off on a tangent stayhappyNo need to apologize! I am enjoying the discussion as well 😊 my take is that the DA in this situation will say what they are or or not ready for. In my case, every time my DA partner and i have had this talk it's been very matter of fact, whether yea or nay to progress at that time, or to step back and deal with other life things. It was just a negotiation to us. if either of us felt pressure i believe we would have jar pushed back. that's my experience. I have seen it a lot on the boards also, when asked "what are we?" DA partners (and this is a clue to real DA, to me) consistently tell it like it is even if it's not popular or the desired answer. in all cases that i know of, a direct approach would be appreciated by a DA, and beating around he bush or insulating it somehow can actually be perceived negatively by a DA. @mary said something about that. for me, i believe it's because i was really disoriented by the mixed messages of my mother growing up. it was hard to figure out what's real. just give it to me straight and quick. that's my preference. and i will do the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 23:59:53 GMT
the discussion about confidence and fearlessness has come up before- and i get why it's confusing. The fear, for me, comes in around interdependence and wishing and hoping for true love and intimacy. that's my achilles heel. I don't experience a lot of fear around other things in life. This is most likely due to nervous system deactivation. I have had severe phobia, such as to heigh and at one point i was claustroohibic. Both of those intense fears i dealt with by forcing exposure , with claustrophobia i made myself take elevators instead of stairs when i was a medical courier in hospitals, just to try to get past the panic of it. it did work. and the precipice exercise was helpful to me but i wouldn't say the fear of heights is gone. but i know i can cope with it. I hate to fly because i have to cope with both heights and small space (the cabin ceiling feels like it closes on me) but if i do fly i practice mindfulness of the fear and make it an exercise. So, the confidence and calmness of a dismissive stops where intimacy, true vulnerability begins. It's a very painful but precious experience to me to lay next to my partner when i feel raw, but i have to be as brave then as i am on the edge of a precipice. other times, i just shut down, in deactivation. That's the nervous system over-regulation that is extremely isolating once i have gained awareness. As far as being calm in a crisis, or under pressure, or in the face of alarming circumstances, that is the up side to having a calm nervous system. The down side, like i mentioned, is that i have been able to without trying, remain stoic in very adverse situations that i wish i would have fled from. I wish i could have fled. But i froze. I have been insulated from feelings that would have guided me to a better life. that's been very sad for me to reconcile. That makes sense. One more question, do you think some people could have a much lower threshold than others for what they find intimate and vulnerable and would cause them to deactivate? yes i think there are different thresholds, depending on the individual- but i don't know for sure. it gets complicated. i've just begun to understand myself in terms of attachment theory in the last two years really. my threshold is lower than my partner's. he can do relationship easier than i can. my big triggers are (true) deep emotional intimacy and losing people i am close to that i trust and love. i only have safe people around me for the last few years. i was very shut down before. it's taken me some really deep and sustained effort to build intimacy with my partner. i was completely hiding my true self when we met. he knows the authentic me more than any other person but my kids, and the way he accepts and understands me is powerful and all i ever wanted. so it's like a dream come true to find that, which is why it's such a powerful trigger. and i struggle with fear and deactivation still although i am getting much stronger and more able to maintain the stability. i need his help. that's very vulnerable to need someone over something like this. it's hard but i want to keep growing in that way. it's contrary to my survival mode. it's contrary to my independence and isolated nature. the other life stuff is just stuff. i can do life stuff without much problem. |
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 13, 2018 0:02:18 GMT
An activity will lead to a need for some down time and head space, most avoidants i know have an interaction budget and need to replenish. it's how we are wired. Did you mean most DAs specifically? (I strangely don't even like to call myself "an avoidant" yet since I am still coming to terms with it dawning on me that FA is my main style, but anyway, FA has avoidant in the name too), my experience is that if doing an activity with people I need far less downtime/time alone or can handle spending much longer with the person/people than if I am just sitting around talking to people, and I can think of a very avoidant FA friend who is like that too. Also, before any "serious" talk I prefer to go to the gym, preferably by myself, but doing it with the person would work well too. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 0:04:08 GMT
An activity will lead to a need for some down time and head space, most avoidants i know have an interaction budget and need to replenish. it's how we are wired. Did you mean most DAs specifically? (I strangely don't even like to call myself "an avoidant" yet since I am still coming to terms with it dawning on me that FA is my main style, but anyway, FA has avoidant in the name too), my experience is that if doing an activity with people I need far less downtime/time alone or can handle spending much longer with the person/people than if I am just sitting around talking to people, and I can think of a very avoidant FA friend who is like that too. Also, before any "serious" talk I prefer to go to the gym, preferably by myself, but doing it with the person would work well too. yes i do mean DA specifically. i actually don't know any FA people (that i am aware of) as my close circle is mostly DA or secure. actually, lots of time i find DA like to do activities alone :/ i do. i enjoy doing something with partner or friends but then i've got to do me for a bit. my partner is the same, he's the DA i spend most time with. and it's not a lot. ha. |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 13, 2018 1:47:52 GMT
i'm really skeptical about the rarity of FA also! I might be skeptical about the frequency of DA, lol. of course, there are DA with more anxiety.... mine is very low, as is @mary , and also goldilocks , although goldi did test with more FA these days which she has found to be explained by moving more toward secure, it's like a little bump for some DA if i understood her correctly. so yes there is a spectrum but i do think there are more FA than currently believed. the literature isn't all golden- it evolves. Secure 19 61,3% Avoidant/Dismissiv 6 19,4% Ambivalent/Anxious 1 3,2% Disorganized 5 16,1% I have taken this test earlier, and I have become both more secure and more disorganised. I was more dismissive in the past. |
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Post by lilyg on Sept 13, 2018 5:24:09 GMT
This is very interesting. I always thought my partner was more DA, he has similarities... But his reaction to talking about this was confusion and fear the first time. So maybe FA as we got caught up in a fantasy of meeting until we had to think about what we wanted from it. He has many differences too in some other aspects 😊 I'm trying to learn by experience interacting with him but all your input is gold!
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 13, 2018 6:12:12 GMT
I made a thread in the FA forum that relates to how it's not really possible to decide where exactly the line is between DA and FA. It might be more appropriate/clear to describe someone in terms like "highly dismissive with moderate anxious traits," but I also do like categories because they are easier. The thread's mostly about my investigation into how common FA is. You can read it here if you like: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1360/common-fearful-avoidant-style |
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The talk
Sept 13, 2018 7:31:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by stayhappy on Sept 13, 2018 7:31:23 GMT
Me talking to a DA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. DA: That's fair. Let's get together for dinner tonight and discuss it. Pick you up at 8? [Later during dinner...]I don't want to label what we are doing as "dating" if to you that means that we would make regular plans or I am obligated to stay in touch. I enjoy going out with you and having sex with you, but I don't want to feel like I am obligated to anyone in any way. If you are ok with being friends with benefits that would be great, but if not I understand. Me talking to an FA: Me: What do you think about how often you'd like to each other? When I'm dating someone it's hard for me to not feel like I know if and when we'll see each other next. FA: [*freezes silently for minutes looking scared*] Can we talk about this later? I forgot I have to go on a 20k run. [Later...][*doesn't reply to texts, likes and comments on my posts on Facebook*] [Much later..][*sends me a song on a different messaging app*] My guy had the “DA reaction” when we first talked about us. But it was him who said in the beginning that he was looking for a relationship but changing his mind when things started to get real. We can talk about pretty much about everything that is not personal or about us. He will “deep talk” to me if he has too but I don’t think he is comfortable with that and will avoid if he can. It was a time when he could pull away, disappear and come back later as nothing has happened. I remember getting confused and irritated about it and saying “Or you are in or you are out” once when he came back and he said “but I was never out!”, well now I know why! And creating some rules was the only I could come up with to try things work for both of us 😊[/quote] |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 14:29:06 GMT
This is very interesting. I always thought my partner was more DA, he has similarities... But his reaction to talking about this was confusion and fear the first time. So maybe FA as we got caught up in a fantasy of meeting until we had to think about what we wanted from it. He has many differences too in some other aspects 😊 I'm trying to learn by experience interacting with him but all your input is gold! i swear, i think FA is more common than DA... or maybe most of the DA are just under rocks, single. 🤔 |
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Post by lilyg on Sept 13, 2018 15:12:06 GMT
This is very interesting. I always thought my partner was more DA, he has similarities... But his reaction to talking about this was confusion and fear the first time. So maybe FA as we got caught up in a fantasy of meeting until we had to think about what we wanted from it. He has many differences too in some other aspects 😊 I'm trying to learn by experience interacting with him but all your input is gold! i swear, i think FA is more common than DA... or maybe most of the DA are just under rocks, single. 🤔 Hahaha no idea, it's weird! Maybe DAs prefer other means of help than forums. Lots of things you've explained me about DA resonate with him but this specific conversation went as I told you and you are all saying it's not dismissive at all, for example. And I guess my partner is not that avoidant... he has a safe and healthy relationship with his mother and brother. Of course every person is different and he may deviate on some things. His main approach is that he does not care much about being in a relationship, that he prefers to be alone but he met me and I guess that started to change. He also likes the idea of having a family and cohabitating sometime. The feel I get is that he wants to have a relationship with me but is scared of being 'bad' at relationships and that I might take away his time/independence. I don't mind not knowing exactly everything, as I prefer for him to try to explain his feelings and thoughts. |
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The talk
Sept 13, 2018 16:03:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by alexandra on Sept 13, 2018 16:03:31 GMT
or maybe most of the DA are just under rocks, single. 🤔 Yes, I think this is a big part of it. FA pursue relationships actively, until they get in one, so you end up with far more people confused about it, and it can make it seem more prevalent. I'm going to get really statistically dorky, (and don't actually believe this I'm trying to be funny more than anything, so no offense to anyone), but there's the 80/20 theory. One way to apply it is estimate that 80% of sales are usually from 20% of customers. So maybe, 80% of problems are from 3-20% FA  I suspect it's higher than 3-5% of the population but probably still closer to 10% than more. But I have no data to back that assumption up  It's being discussed in the new thread. |
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Post by epicgum on Sept 13, 2018 16:25:58 GMT
This is very interesting. I always thought my partner was more DA, he has similarities... But his reaction to talking about this was confusion and fear the first time. So maybe FA as we got caught up in a fantasy of meeting until we had to think about what we wanted from it. He has many differences too in some other aspects 😊 I'm trying to learn by experience interacting with him but all your input is gold! I don't think anyone really wants to think of themselves as FA either, I mean....fearful? The cultural script for men is to be strong, independent, unmoved...so DA is maybe too much of a good thing....for women, the cultural script (at least the old fashioned one) is to be loving, nurturing, caring...so if you "love too much" well, that's a bit of a romantic vice too, but FEARFUL?? I'm not sure there's a way to romanticize that one. |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 13, 2018 17:03:47 GMT
I don't think anyone really wants to think of themselves as FA either, I mean....fearful? I don't think it's even gendered. My female FA friend thought she was DA and then avoided her test results because it was upsetting to her. She said, I didn't want to believe I was the "crazy" one! I told her that's not what it means, just that there's more to heal. |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 13, 2018 18:21:03 GMT
i swear, i think FA is more common than DA... or maybe most of the DA are just under rocks, single. 🤔 This is actually a factor in my opinion. I started dating my first real boyfriend 18 years ago. I have had 2 stretches of not being on the dating market: One for 7 years and one for 5. Just living the dry spell, healing, reading, picking up hobbies and learning new skills. So I have only been dating for 6 years, of which 4 spent in relationships, so I have been on the market for 2 years total. |
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It's being discussed in the new thread. 
