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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 23:59:29 GMT
Hi Juniper, thanks for dropping in during this difficult time! What did you mean by I took a damaging approach? Which part is damaging? I’m not intending to ask anyone to curate my msgs. That in itself is also exhausting and too much time and resources involved. My friends wouldn’t want to be involved either. I thought carefully about what I wanted to say and I did say it in the email. Those might be hurtful things for him to hear but that’s how I felt and the behaviours he was exhibiting made me feel like I cannot trust him to be committed and kind to me. He said he would get back to me but did not specify a time frame Nor if we would stay in contact. So I have left him alone and did not initiate contact. I’m wondering if contacting at this point would be considered triggering for DAs who are already triggered. I’m not playing a chess game. if he clearly told me that no let’s end this, I’m good with it. But we left it hanging and I would like to have clarity on where we stand. it is a difficult time, but i'm also trying to stay on track with some participation to maintain some normalcy's what i meant by a damaging approach, is that it sounds like you didn't include reparative speech if he understood it as a breakup email. if he was asking why you can't trust him, there would have to be acknowledgement also of your anxious dynamic, wouldn't there? but from what you describe it was a very critical and fault finding email. i haven't read it, obviously- but i'm going on what i understand from your description. he sounds pretty hurt and there probably is a reason for that. i can imagine that he isn't able to trust you emotionally either. i know you are hurt from his behavior and approach but he is hurt by yours also. and, my approach to other people's triggers is not to tippytoe around them. this is just my approach and i'm just providing it to share my perspective. so, if i have triggered someone, i do care and will attempt a repair, but i will do it directly from a place of authenticity, and then let them choose whether to move more deeply into their trigger or step out of it to meet me. the outcome depends on the degree of willingness and ability on both sides. with continued work to stay in my lane and have expectations for growth and effort from a partner, the outcome will eventually be to work together and stop dancing the dance or dissolve the relationship. the reason it has a feel of a chess game to me is that it seems like you are trying to determine your next move based on how he might respond. if you know what you need in this relationship, you don't need him to tell you "let's end it". you just need to make your own determinations based on what you know (you can't trust him ) and authentically and reasonably represent yourself. that's just one perspective; and not one everyone will agree with. but i myself can't hand the fate of the relationship over to a dysfunctional partner- i have to have my hands on the wheel in my own life. Thanks Juniper, I think you're right in several aspects, and I agree with what you've said about it being hurtful. I'm also trying to sensemake here, so it's a little rambling. It is true that in my email i did not explain my anxious attachment and behaviors. This is because I have repeatedly done so over the years, and i was taking on all the burden and blame of the dynamic. it was always a situation of why are you insecure and why are you always the problem. I try to say it nicely that certain behaviors and feelings are triggering for me, and that I react this way because of something that happened. I try to say it nicely that I need some stability and I'm hurt by what has happened. The reactions I got were along the lines of, "oh im sorry, i don't even remember what has happened" or "if you want to be a priority, then fine, I'll call you everyday". now, I can see that that in itself was very triggering for me because there's a sense of contempt and being tolerated, without any sense of him reflecting on his behavior and then taking responsibility for it. There's only so much I can belittle and blame myself for being insecure, without the self-esteem erosion and losing my sense of self. I also did not include reparative language because i did not want to carry all the burden of trying to repair all the time. it has become a situation of only me trying to repair things by asking for what I need, to a point where i need to be tolerated and obliged, which is just as triggering. So the point of the email being so blunt is that i wanted to be able to speak my truth without tiptoeing around his insecurities, which is what i've been doing, so that i can be emotionally honest to myself and to him. it is also true that it was highly critical of him, that I cannot deny. I think what i'm trying to say is that the email move for me is making my own determinations and then representing that to him authentically. perhaps that's a very clumsy way of doing it but i'm very tired of trying to be authentic while being sensitive to his needs and insecurities and busy schedule. you might be right that there's a chess game feel, but i'm trying very hard not to do that. I have to remind myself everyday that i do what i want and he does what he want. and now i'm trying to determine what i want - do i reach out or not, and how do i do that in a non-hurtful manner. i guess the thing is i don't know anymore if i am being hurtful or not. In any case, things are not always clear to me and there're always new insights that are coming to me, through reading this forum and answers such as yours, and many other experiences. when i read your answer, I felt wronged and a sense of injustice and unfairness, which made me reflect on what's triggering this emotion. i think there's a sense of carrying all the responsibility for the relationship and for him and for me, and that I come last in everything - which he pretty much admitted that i am. mm. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 0:03:54 GMT
(1) (based on my experience) if you want to fix it, you have to create a safe space for him, as long as he feels any kind of pressure he will feel as he's forced and deactivate(it's what my DA said to me). Yes, he has to think it's on his terms but at the same time you can't sacrifice your needs. That middle ground has to be worked out. If it's ok with you, think of it that when he's relaxed he can (if he can, I don't know him) provide you with what you want from him, maybe not as often as you'd like. (2)State them to yourself, not to him! You're the guardian of the line, and he has no right to cross it. If he doesn't understand, he will. Just like animals learn not to touch electric fence. If he won't, get out. (3) then the real problem is not his attachment but yours. he's not a partner you want, and he's not someone who is willing to change. try to fix the problem with something you have influence on- your own attachment. (4) You could be more secure with friends (as I am), I mentioned friends because that's my only experience with AP- I've never been attracted to AP men so I have no idea how is it. My friends acted out many times. Thanks Christie. i am trying to fix my own attachment and learn how to behave more healthily. I guess the problem is sometimes what I think is healthy might not be the case, and I am not sure so I'm asking for input! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 0:46:44 GMT
it is a difficult time, but i'm also trying to stay on track with some participation to maintain some normalcy's what i meant by a damaging approach, is that it sounds like you didn't include reparative speech if he understood it as a breakup email. if he was asking why you can't trust him, there would have to be acknowledgement also of your anxious dynamic, wouldn't there? but from what you describe it was a very critical and fault finding email. i haven't read it, obviously- but i'm going on what i understand from your description. he sounds pretty hurt and there probably is a reason for that. i can imagine that he isn't able to trust you emotionally either. i know you are hurt from his behavior and approach but he is hurt by yours also. and, my approach to other people's triggers is not to tippytoe around them. this is just my approach and i'm just providing it to share my perspective. so, if i have triggered someone, i do care and will attempt a repair, but i will do it directly from a place of authenticity, and then let them choose whether to move more deeply into their trigger or step out of it to meet me. the outcome depends on the degree of willingness and ability on both sides. with continued work to stay in my lane and have expectations for growth and effort from a partner, the outcome will eventually be to work together and stop dancing the dance or dissolve the relationship. the reason it has a feel of a chess game to me is that it seems like you are trying to determine your next move based on how he might respond. if you know what you need in this relationship, you don't need him to tell you "let's end it". you just need to make your own determinations based on what you know (you can't trust him ) and authentically and reasonably represent yourself. that's just one perspective; and not one everyone will agree with. but i myself can't hand the fate of the relationship over to a dysfunctional partner- i have to have my hands on the wheel in my own life. Thanks Juniper, I think you're right in several aspects, and I agree with what you've said about it being hurtful. I'm also trying to sensemake here, so it's a little rambling. It is true that in my email i did not explain my anxious attachment and behaviors. This is because I have repeatedly done so over the years, and i was taking on all the burden and blame of the dynamic. it was always a situation of why are you insecure and why are you always the problem. I try to say it nicely that certain behaviors and feelings are triggering for me, and that I react this way because of something that happened. I try to say it nicely that I need some stability and I'm hurt by what has happened. The reactions I got were along the lines of, "oh im sorry, i don't even remember what has happened" or "if you want to be a priority, then fine, I'll call you everyday". now, I can see that that in itself was very triggering for me because there's a sense of contempt and being tolerated, without any sense of him reflecting on his behavior and then taking responsibility for it. There's only so much I can belittle and blame myself for being insecure, without the self-esteem erosion and losing my sense of self. I also did not include reparative language because i did not want to carry all the burden of trying to repair all the time. it has become a situation of only me trying to repair things by asking for what I need, to a point where i need to be tolerated and obliged, which is just as triggering. So the point of the email being so blunt is that i wanted to be able to speak my truth without tiptoeing around his insecurities, which is what i've been doing, so that i can be emotionally honest to myself and to him. it is also true that it was highly critical of him, that I cannot deny. I think what i'm trying to say is that the email move for me is making my own determinations and then representing that to him authentically. perhaps that's a very clumsy way of doing it but i'm very tired of trying to be authentic while being sensitive to his needs and insecurities and busy schedule. you might be right that there's a chess game feel, but i'm trying very hard not to do that. I have to remind myself everyday that i do what i want and he does what he want. and now i'm trying to determine what i want - do i reach out or not, and how do i do that in a non-hurtful manner. i guess the thing is i don't know anymore if i am being hurtful or not. In any case, things are not always clear to me and there're always new insights that are coming to me, through reading this forum and answers such as yours, and many other experiences. when i read your answer, I felt wronged and a sense of injustice and unfairness, which made me reflect on what's triggering this emotion. i think there's a sense of carrying all the responsibility for the relationship and for him and for me, and that I come last in everything - which he pretty much admitted that i am. mm. i can understand this. i understand by you explaining it that you have felt last , and have carried all the responsibility in the relationship. that pain that is coming up around that may be really valuable, to show you that you need to step up for yourself more, and i can see why attempts to do that would be clumsy. i've gone through that too. so, maybe it's a process of beginning to recognize and validate your needs without the self -blame. i know the anxious process is different from the avoidant process and it's not always clear to me what's going on, it does get confusing for me, as i am sure the avoidant process is a little confusing to those looking in. i do know, though, that the "coming to jesus" type of communication only goes so far, and then there is a need to be decisive about holding standards and making hard choices to protect your emotional well being, which may mean people who can't reciprocate your level of investment or healing, have to go. in that light, i encourage you to just continue to be authentic, mindful of the over-responsibility, which also can be distorted by a dysfunctional narrative. by this i mean that it's possible that an anxious person can feel they are putting in the most effort toward intimacy when really they may just be operating according to script, and not actually being authentic and behaving in ways that foster true intimacy. or, they might practice self blame according to a narrative without understanding the real ways that they squash intimacy and relationship. i don't know if that is your situation or not, it's something only you could really reflect on and determine. all of us have to look at whether our effort is truly healthy or just acting out our narrative, anxious and avoidant alike. anyway, i hope some of this is helpful even if it isn't on point it might spur some other kind of thought process or realization that takes you a step closer to knowing what to do to take good care of yourself. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 12, 2018 1:01:39 GMT
Hi, I need some advice on my situation. I've been wondering on the balance of giving space and being available. Last week, I sent an email detailing why I do not trust my DA (he asked for an explanation on why I refused to take his words on good faith). It was a clumsy attempt on my behalf to speak up for myself and address my needs and hurt. Anyways, he thought it was a breakup email, and then replied that he didn't realize he was such a worthless person and that he has tried to save the relationship when he realized how bad the situation got. I then replied and said that he has misunderstood me and that this wasn't meant to be a breakup email, but since he replied as such I suppose that's what he wanted. He then replied and said that he saw my reply and need a few days to think it through before he gets back to me. I did not reply (another clumsy attempt at protecting myself). It's been a week. I'd like to reach out and say that I'm still available to speak if he'd like to, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea - would that been seen as intrusive? I’d say you definitely need to communicate so you may clear up any misunderstandings- and communicate on the phone or in person where misunderstandings are less likely to occur. No, I wouldn’t find you reaching out with an olive branch as intrusive at all. I’d find it to be a mature and thoughful gesture. My ex avoidant is very sensitive to any remarks- real or imaginary criticism, he takes it to heart and is overly sensitive and defensive. Any comments seem to attack his self-worth, which is already so low. The same way I felt abandoned in time and space- he would easily feel wrongly attacked. So, choose your words wisely in case you’re dealing with a similar person with avoidant tendencies and/or self-esteem issues. Measure your words and reach out warmly 💙 |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 12, 2018 1:10:16 GMT
it is a difficult time, but i'm also trying to stay on track with some participation to maintain some normalcy's what i meant by a damaging approach, is that it sounds like you didn't include reparative speech if he understood it as a breakup email. if he was asking why you can't trust him, there would have to be acknowledgement also of your anxious dynamic, wouldn't there? but from what you describe it was a very critical and fault finding email. i haven't read it, obviously- but i'm going on what i understand from your description. he sounds pretty hurt and there probably is a reason for that. i can imagine that he isn't able to trust you emotionally either. i know you are hurt from his behavior and approach but he is hurt by yours also. and, my approach to other people's triggers is not to tippytoe around them. this is just my approach and i'm just providing it to share my perspective. so, if i have triggered someone, i do care and will attempt a repair, but i will do it directly from a place of authenticity, and then let them choose whether to move more deeply into their trigger or step out of it to meet me. the outcome depends on the degree of willingness and ability on both sides. with continued work to stay in my lane and have expectations for growth and effort from a partner, the outcome will eventually be to work together and stop dancing the dance or dissolve the relationship. the reason it has a feel of a chess game to me is that it seems like you are trying to determine your next move based on how he might respond. if you know what you need in this relationship, you don't need him to tell you "let's end it". you just need to make your own determinations based on what you know (you can't trust him ) and authentically and reasonably represent yourself. that's just one perspective; and not one everyone will agree with. but i myself can't hand the fate of the relationship over to a dysfunctional partner- i have to have my hands on the wheel in my own life. Thanks Juniper, I think you're right in several aspects, and I agree with what you've said about it being hurtful. I'm also trying to sensemake here, so it's a little rambling. It is true that in my email i did not explain my anxious attachment and behaviors. This is because I have repeatedly done so over the years, and i was taking on all the burden and blame of the dynamic. it was always a situation of why are you insecure and why are you always the problem. I try to say it nicely that certain behaviors and feelings are triggering for me, and that I react this way because of something that happened. I try to say it nicely that I need some stability and I'm hurt by what has happened. The reactions I got were along the lines of, "oh im sorry, i don't even remember what has happened" or "if you want to be a priority, then fine, I'll call you everyday". now, I can see that that in itself was very triggering for me because there's a sense of contempt and being tolerated, without any sense of him reflecting on his behavior and then taking responsibility for it. There's only so much I can belittle and blame myself for being insecure, without the self-esteem erosion and losing my sense of self. I also did not include reparative language because i did not want to carry all the burden of trying to repair all the time. it has become a situation of only me trying to repair things by asking for what I need, to a point where i need to be tolerated and obliged, which is just as triggering. So the point of the email being so blunt is that i wanted to be able to speak my truth without tiptoeing around his insecurities, which is what i've been doing, so that i can be emotionally honest to myself and to him. it is also true that it was highly critical of him, that I cannot deny. I think what i'm trying to say is that the email move for me is making my own determinations and then representing that to him authentically. perhaps that's a very clumsy way of doing it but i'm very tired of trying to be authentic while being sensitive to his needs and insecurities and busy schedule. you might be right that there's a chess game feel, but i'm trying very hard not to do that. I have to remind myself everyday that i do what i want and he does what he want. and now i'm trying to determine what i want - do i reach out or not, and how do i do that in a non-hurtful manner. i guess the thing is i don't know anymore if i am being hurtful or not. In any case, things are not always clear to me and there're always new insights that are coming to me, through reading this forum and answers such as yours, and many other experiences. when i read your answer, I felt wronged and a sense of injustice and unfairness, which made me reflect on what's triggering this emotion. i think there's a sense of carrying all the responsibility for the relationship and for him and for me, and that I come last in everything - which he pretty much admitted that i am. mm. I understand your need to be blunt if your partner is constantly dismissing your needs. My avoidant ex has been shut down 9 months and after our last meet up he was so withdrawn and cold at the end that I responded in a very honest and direct text that night. No sugar coating. I got tired of tip toeing. I simply stated ithe distance between us is hard for me and I feel fake in that role...I also said I feel we’re both selling ourselves short. He didn’t respond. I’m sure he probably hated my text and would consider it drama but I just wanted to speak my truth. In hindsight, wish I would’ve waited to say it in person but I have a hard time speaking up to him when he withdraws and is short or irritable. It’s tough striking the balance between respecting him and me- being understanding and not growing resentful. So incredibly hard for me. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 12, 2018 1:20:19 GMT
You're absolutely right in that that was extremely triggering and also because I was extremely triggered. In hindsight, I was screaming to be heard. You are spot on in the part about fooling myself because im communicating my needs. I've tried telling him multiple times how it looks for me without any emotion, (1)but it didn't seem like it got through at all. (2) the injustice and hurt just builds over time with every failed attempt and it'll just come out as an emotional outburst. I feel like I have to scream it just so that he (and my mum really - she literally ignores what i say when it's things she does not want to hear) take what I say seriously. The trigger was also that I feel manipulated.. (3)like whatever changes he makes to his behavior is highly suspicious because I don't see it as sustainable change coming from real emotional involvement. It's just change for the moment to keep me in check and once it's ok, he'll just go right back to being dismissive with no remorse - this is the worst fear of an AP, the inconsistency and sudden removal of connection. I don't know how to explain all these without making it sound like i'm accusing him. I've shown him videos, i've analyzed our interactions, i've put it in business terms so that he'll understand (he's very work oriented), and he'll seem to understand cognitively but not emotionally. (4)When you say that your AP friends are often very demanding and should know what's ok with them, can you elaborate on what that means? For example, what does demanding means? (1) Based on what? Because he doesn't react to it or gives you reassurance? His first instinct will be to protect himself, and probably won't react the way you want(I did catch myself a few times expecting my DA to react the way I wanted, the way I would but he isn't me). It's the time when giving him space is needed and when he cools down, he should be able to see your side. He probably still will be improving in his own way(not yours), that's why patience and being secure is the key. He'll never ever see your side when he's deactivating. (2) This is exactly why you have to know what your boundaries are and keep them. My mother wasn't listening to me either, after learning about the attachment theory I got fed up. I told her it flat out she's not listening to me and that I do not like it. I do the same with my DA; I simply tell him 'you are being very disrespectful towards me right now' and stop engaging before a discussion becomes an argument. I give him a clear sign that I won't be tolerating it. What I'm trying to do is to communicate that certain behaviors are not accepted anymore by me but at the same time I'm trying NOT to say/suggest HE is not accepted by me. Instead giving up on my needs and building resentment, because there's no way they'll change over night even if they love you, I draw a big fat line. If they step on it, I warn them very firmly but calmly. I think it's very important not to show any signs of hostility and be very available at this point. If they cross the line you have to be ready to get out, and they have to know it. But you have to be secure, while triggered you won't know where the line is and whether they only stepped on it or crossed it. Oddly enough, it works. Little by little. (3) You'll have to accept it is not sustainable. It can't be. Is it for you? You can be self-aware, working on yourself, but once you're triggered you are triggered and everything goes to point A. For some it takes years and years of self awareness and therapy to become secure. It's deeply rooted, often traumatic events created it. He'll have to relearn the way he functioned and coped his whole life. It is a process. I think it'd be unfair to expect him to and it's your decision if it's ok with you to be part of that, if your needs can be met. I'm FA so in a sense that distance of my DA is safe for me and I don't mind this very, very slow process. I wouldn't be able to meet AP's needs though. (4)They (silently) expect from me to take care of them, they project their attachment wound on me(like I'm the one responsible for that). I can help but I'm not their mommy/daddy. So, how would you want your partner or ex partner to relate to you in a time of conflict? My ex and I are in emotional gridlock- he’s been shut down for months. I haven’t reached out in a week- if I continue to be silent is a DA likely to feel abandoned and break any bit of trust he does have for me or will he not even notice the space? Or feel relieved by the space? I’m trying to build trust so I don’t want to cause further damage but I feel I’m enabling him in a casual relationship where he can just be physical. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 5:46:45 GMT
Thanks Juniper, I think you're right in several aspects, and I agree with what you've said about it being hurtful. I'm also trying to sensemake here, so it's a little rambling. It is true that in my email i did not explain my anxious attachment and behaviors. This is because I have repeatedly done so over the years, and i was taking on all the burden and blame of the dynamic. it was always a situation of why are you insecure and why are you always the problem. I try to say it nicely that certain behaviors and feelings are triggering for me, and that I react this way because of something that happened. I try to say it nicely that I need some stability and I'm hurt by what has happened. The reactions I got were along the lines of, "oh im sorry, i don't even remember what has happened" or "if you want to be a priority, then fine, I'll call you everyday". now, I can see that that in itself was very triggering for me because there's a sense of contempt and being tolerated, without any sense of him reflecting on his behavior and then taking responsibility for it. There's only so much I can belittle and blame myself for being insecure, without the self-esteem erosion and losing my sense of self. I also did not include reparative language because i did not want to carry all the burden of trying to repair all the time. it has become a situation of only me trying to repair things by asking for what I need, to a point where i need to be tolerated and obliged, which is just as triggering. So the point of the email being so blunt is that i wanted to be able to speak my truth without tiptoeing around his insecurities, which is what i've been doing, so that i can be emotionally honest to myself and to him. it is also true that it was highly critical of him, that I cannot deny. I think what i'm trying to say is that the email move for me is making my own determinations and then representing that to him authentically. perhaps that's a very clumsy way of doing it but i'm very tired of trying to be authentic while being sensitive to his needs and insecurities and busy schedule. you might be right that there's a chess game feel, but i'm trying very hard not to do that. I have to remind myself everyday that i do what i want and he does what he want. and now i'm trying to determine what i want - do i reach out or not, and how do i do that in a non-hurtful manner. i guess the thing is i don't know anymore if i am being hurtful or not. In any case, things are not always clear to me and there're always new insights that are coming to me, through reading this forum and answers such as yours, and many other experiences. when i read your answer, I felt wronged and a sense of injustice and unfairness, which made me reflect on what's triggering this emotion. i think there's a sense of carrying all the responsibility for the relationship and for him and for me, and that I come last in everything - which he pretty much admitted that i am. mm. i can understand this. i understand by you explaining it that you have felt last , and have carried all the responsibility in the relationship. that pain that is coming up around that may be really valuable, to show you that you need to step up for yourself more, and i can see why attempts to do that would be clumsy. i've gone through that too. so, maybe it's a process of beginning to recognize and validate your needs without the self -blame. i know the anxious process is different from the avoidant process and it's not always clear to me what's going on, it does get confusing for me, as i am sure the avoidant process is a little confusing to those looking in. i do know, though, that the "coming to jesus" type of communication only goes so far, and then there is a need to be decisive about holding standards and making hard choices to protect your emotional well being, which may mean people who can't reciprocate your level of investment or healing, have to go. in that light, i encourage you to just continue to be authentic, mindful of the over-responsibility, which also can be distorted by a dysfunctional narrative. by this i mean that it's possible that an anxious person can feel they are putting in the most effort toward intimacy when really they may just be operating according to script, and not actually being authentic and behaving in ways that foster true intimacy. or, they might practice self blame according to a narrative without understanding the real ways that they squash intimacy and relationship. i don't know if that is your situation or not, it's something only you could really reflect on and determine. all of us have to look at whether our effort is truly healthy or just acting out our narrative, anxious and avoidant alike. anyway, i hope some of this is helpful even if it isn't on point it might spur some other kind of thought process or realization that takes you a step closer to knowing what to do to take good care of yourself. Thanks Juniper, for understanding that. Not sure really what the process is, but there is clarity fading in and out every day on different issues. and you're spot on on many things, so this has been also very illuminating. yes. that communication can only go so far. and at the end of the day, you're right that it is all his battle and me trying to have anything to do with it is just not great for both of us.i need to fight my own. so i vacillate between wanting to work only on myself and wanting to repair things with him - but i will not contact him until that is clear to myself and if i decided to repair things. maybe this will resonate with some people reading this thread, but it occurred to me today why i need things to be clearly stated and why i often ask what people's intentions/agendas are. for example, I am not interested in having conversations about my department's strategy, until I have asked, pointblank, what our agenda is and what are things we want to achieve. This often puts people in an uncomfortable spot because they do not want to clearly and explicitly admit that there is misalignment with the company's broader goals, or that there are individual political agendas, or that we simply don't know, or maybe I'm just blithe. Thus the directness of how I phrase things - something that my DA is extremely uncomfortable with. This need for bluntness comes from the fact that my needs and reality are often ignored and/or dismissed, and a clear negation of my inner world experience e.g., why are you sad. there's nothing to be sad about. you're so useless. it makes me feel like my reality is not accurate nor reliable, and therefore, I look to others to provide that validation and corroboration. This also makes me highly aware that I am susceptible to manipulations and gaslighting, which i respond with demanding emotional honesty and transparency. What this results in is that I only choose to be with people who are extremely honest and blunt, and will use tough love on me. When I am with people whom I believe and verified are honest with me (even if they are private), I drop this monitoring and am able to be more present with them. this is why also APs are often asking for people's opinions on what to do and what it means - there is simply no gauge as to what is real or not. the world that I live in is confusing, contradictory, and unpredictable, and also have been repeatedly negated. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 6:00:00 GMT
(1) Based on what? Because he doesn't react to it or gives you reassurance? His first instinct will be to protect himself, and probably won't react the way you want(I did catch myself a few times expecting my DA to react the way I wanted, the way I would but he isn't me). It's the time when giving him space is needed and when he cools down, he should be able to see your side. He probably still will be improving in his own way(not yours), that's why patience and being secure is the key. He'll never ever see your side when he's deactivating. (2) This is exactly why you have to know what your boundaries are and keep them. My mother wasn't listening to me either, after learning about the attachment theory I got fed up. I told her it flat out she's not listening to me and that I do not like it. I do the same with my DA; I simply tell him 'you are being very disrespectful towards me right now' and stop engaging before a discussion becomes an argument. I give him a clear sign that I won't be tolerating it. What I'm trying to do is to communicate that certain behaviors are not accepted anymore by me but at the same time I'm trying NOT to say/suggest HE is not accepted by me. Instead giving up on my needs and building resentment, because there's no way they'll change over night even if they love you, I draw a big fat line. If they step on it, I warn them very firmly but calmly. I think it's very important not to show any signs of hostility and be very available at this point. If they cross the line you have to be ready to get out, and they have to know it. But you have to be secure, while triggered you won't know where the line is and whether they only stepped on it or crossed it. Oddly enough, it works. Little by little. (3) You'll have to accept it is not sustainable. It can't be. Is it for you? You can be self-aware, working on yourself, but once you're triggered you are triggered and everything goes to point A. For some it takes years and years of self awareness and therapy to become secure. It's deeply rooted, often traumatic events created it. He'll have to relearn the way he functioned and coped his whole life. It is a process. I think it'd be unfair to expect him to and it's your decision if it's ok with you to be part of that, if your needs can be met. I'm FA so in a sense that distance of my DA is safe for me and I don't mind this very, very slow process. I wouldn't be able to meet AP's needs though. (4)They (silently) expect from me to take care of them, they project their attachment wound on me(like I'm the one responsible for that). I can help but I'm not their mommy/daddy. So, how would you want your partner or ex partner to relate to you in a time of conflict? My ex and I are in emotional gridlock- he’s been shut down for months. I haven’t reached out in a week- if I continue to be silent is a DA likely to feel abandoned and break any bit of trust he does have for me or will he not even notice the space? Or feel relieved by the space? I’m trying to build trust so I don’t want to cause further damage but I feel I’m enabling him in a casual relationship where he can just be physical. I think you're very right that it's hard to strike a balance between respecting him and myself. My DA says he wants the truth and I should share, but when i do share honestly my feelings and thoughts, he literally shuts down. It's like.. why are you asking me for honesty if you can't handle it? Then i have to tiptoe around that and then watch him act like he's got it together and I'm the one with the problem. it's quite frustrating. the issue is that we are not able to have a proper, honest conflict in which we discuss things from a place of authenticity and honesty. i want my partner to be emotionally present when we are in conflict - the issue is that he emotionally disappears and thinks that that's solving the problem, but in reality is just triggering me even more. This is an impasse for DA-AP, there is no solution to it. The only solution is that both parties get rid of their self-protecting mechanism - for the DA to withdraw, and the AP to protest. What you've pointed out about the space and silence is exactly what my initial question is. If i continue to be silent, is he feeling abandoned? if i reach out, will he see it as intrusive? i don't have a clue, and i also am at a place where i care somewhat but i care a bit more about my own well-being right now. if i reach out now, I am not sure if i am reaching out from a place of strength or a place of toxic dancing, and so i am not doing anything yet. in any case, if he wants to self protect by withdrawing and protecting only himself, then that's fine. you should do the same instead of trying to protect the relationship. the relationship that the AP perceives to be so amazing, to me, doesn't really exist and even if it does, it does not exist stably and continually. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 6:30:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 7:31:17 GMT
(1) Based on what? Because he doesn't react to it or gives you reassurance? His first instinct will be to protect himself, and probably won't react the way you want(I did catch myself a few times expecting my DA to react the way I wanted, the way I would but he isn't me). It's the time when giving him space is needed and when he cools down, he should be able to see your side. He probably still will be improving in his own way(not yours), that's why patience and being secure is the key. He'll never ever see your side when he's deactivating. (2) This is exactly why you have to know what your boundaries are and keep them. My mother wasn't listening to me either, after learning about the attachment theory I got fed up. I told her it flat out she's not listening to me and that I do not like it. I do the same with my DA; I simply tell him 'you are being very disrespectful towards me right now' and stop engaging before a discussion becomes an argument. I give him a clear sign that I won't be tolerating it. What I'm trying to do is to communicate that certain behaviors are not accepted anymore by me but at the same time I'm trying NOT to say/suggest HE is not accepted by me. Instead giving up on my needs and building resentment, because there's no way they'll change over night even if they love you, I draw a big fat line. If they step on it, I warn them very firmly but calmly. I think it's very important not to show any signs of hostility and be very available at this point. If they cross the line you have to be ready to get out, and they have to know it. But you have to be secure, while triggered you won't know where the line is and whether they only stepped on it or crossed it. Oddly enough, it works. Little by little. (3) You'll have to accept it is not sustainable. It can't be. Is it for you? You can be self-aware, working on yourself, but once you're triggered you are triggered and everything goes to point A. For some it takes years and years of self awareness and therapy to become secure. It's deeply rooted, often traumatic events created it. He'll have to relearn the way he functioned and coped his whole life. It is a process. I think it'd be unfair to expect him to and it's your decision if it's ok with you to be part of that, if your needs can be met. I'm FA so in a sense that distance of my DA is safe for me and I don't mind this very, very slow process. I wouldn't be able to meet AP's needs though. (4)They (silently) expect from me to take care of them, they project their attachment wound on me(like I'm the one responsible for that). I can help but I'm not their mommy/daddy. So, how would you want your partner or ex partner to relate to you in a time of conflict? My ex and I are in emotional gridlock- he’s been shut down for months. I haven’t reached out in a week- if I continue to be silent is a DA likely to feel abandoned and break any bit of trust he does have for me or will he not even notice the space? Or feel relieved by the space? I’m trying to build trust so I don’t want to cause further damage but I feel I’m enabling him in a casual relationship where he can just be physical. I used to make that mistake and project my own fears and desires on him so I kept reaching out. By doing it I was only making him more angry, and more certain that his negative narrative about me is right. He also was shutting down for months, and he was fine when I thought he must at least feel lonely without me. Wrong. The moment he developed his dismissive attachment, he made a decision not to fear abandonment ever again. That's the way he has always been coping, it's very important to understand and not to hold against them. Their instinct is to protect themselves by deactivation, dissociation. They're perfectly fine without you and you can't take it personally. What I do now in time of conflict is: my priority is not to escalate it but remain self respect. No longer I apologize or chase. I stay mindful, I don't engage in his narrative, I state my boundaries and leave him be even if he tries to provoke me. Something that would go on for months now takes a week tops. I'm still the one who has to reach out but only when I'm sure he's calmed down and never to trigger him again. I just carry on as nothing has happened and if it was caused by a real issue we discuss it later, when it feels natural and we both are ready. If I were you I'd let him be. I'd wait a few more weeks and then shoot him a neutral message that he won't see as a threat. He might be hostile at first, mine always is but simply ignore it (not him). As for the problem with keeping it casual, you can't enforce or hope it will change. You have no power over it. Not trusting the world is their default, trusting is something he has to learn not build. I'd not do anything that is against you, if you don't feel ok with a casual relationship, I'd stop being physical with him. Explain it to him like an adult. Don't do anything because of fear it might end. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 11:57:56 GMT
it is very hard to describe what a DA feels in a situation that might provoke a feeling of abandonment in another person.
My reaction?
if it was a truly important relationship to me, pain, and a resolve to move on. i got this. i can do this, and i will. i've got my back.
if it was a less important relationship, one that didn't have my whole heart?
i got this. better off alone.
no, you can't take it personally.
our coping and resilience is valuable to us.
it enabled us to survive what ultimately felt unsurvivable.
we aren't going to give it up for anything less than security that we can trust, and that requires a very long time of HEALING, not changing to make you happy.
we are protecting ourselves unfathomable pain that began way before you.
it's not your place to try to change us. that's like prodding a person with two broken legs to keep up because you've got places to go and you want us to go with you.
we need to heal, we aren't here to make you happy and satisfy you. we are on our own soul journey. if you aren't meant to ride with us you need to know it and bail. if you stay on our trajectory to your own detriment then you have your own soul learning to do, your own healing.
be angry, be what ever you feel.
but we aren't here for you until we heal.
that's the truth and i have no apology on behalf of all the dismissives who are still alone. they have a hard road, we have a hard road, and every DA i know is doing the best they can to understand how to navigate it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 12:06:30 GMT
and in kindness i will say this:
if your partner has moved solidly away from you emotionally and physically and your hands are bleeding and raw from trying to hold on and pull them back,
IT'S UP TO YOU TO LET GO.
That's your healing, that's your soul work, that's your journey.
get your mind off of the dismissive's internal state.
it's not your task.
this is a message of empowerment and support.
get back in your lane if you're getting obliterated in someone else's.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 16:58:58 GMT
Thanks Juniper, I think you're right in several aspects, and I agree with what you've said about it being hurtful. I'm also trying to sensemake here, so it's a little rambling. It is true that in my email i did not explain my anxious attachment and behaviors. This is because I have repeatedly done so over the years, and i was taking on all the burden and blame of the dynamic. it was always a situation of why are you insecure and why are you always the problem. I try to say it nicely that certain behaviors and feelings are triggering for me, and that I react this way because of something that happened. I try to say it nicely that I need some stability and I'm hurt by what has happened. The reactions I got were along the lines of, "oh im sorry, i don't even remember what has happened" or "if you want to be a priority, then fine, I'll call you everyday". now, I can see that that in itself was very triggering for me because there's a sense of contempt and being tolerated, without any sense of him reflecting on his behavior and then taking responsibility for it. There's only so much I can belittle and blame myself for being insecure, without the self-esteem erosion and losing my sense of self. I also did not include reparative language because i did not want to carry all the burden of trying to repair all the time. it has become a situation of only me trying to repair things by asking for what I need, to a point where i need to be tolerated and obliged, which is just as triggering. So the point of the email being so blunt is that i wanted to be able to speak my truth without tiptoeing around his insecurities, which is what i've been doing, so that i can be emotionally honest to myself and to him. it is also true that it was highly critical of him, that I cannot deny. I think what i'm trying to say is that the email move for me is making my own determinations and then representing that to him authentically. perhaps that's a very clumsy way of doing it but i'm very tired of trying to be authentic while being sensitive to his needs and insecurities and busy schedule. you might be right that there's a chess game feel, but i'm trying very hard not to do that. I have to remind myself everyday that i do what i want and he does what he want. and now i'm trying to determine what i want - do i reach out or not, and how do i do that in a non-hurtful manner. i guess the thing is i don't know anymore if i am being hurtful or not. In any case, things are not always clear to me and there're always new insights that are coming to me, through reading this forum and answers such as yours, and many other experiences. when i read your answer, I felt wronged and a sense of injustice and unfairness, which made me reflect on what's triggering this emotion. i think there's a sense of carrying all the responsibility for the relationship and for him and for me, and that I come last in everything - which he pretty much admitted that i am. mm. I understand your need to be blunt if your partner is constantly dismissing your needs. My avoidant ex has been shut down 9 months and after our last meet up he was so withdrawn and cold at the end that I responded in a very honest and direct text that night. No sugar coating. I got tired of tip toeing. I simply stated ithe distance between us is hard for me and I feel fake in that role...I also said I feel we’re both selling ourselves short. He didn’t respond. I’m sure he probably hated my text and would consider it drama but I just wanted to speak my truth. In hindsight, wish I would’ve waited to say it in person but I have a hard time speaking up to him when he withdraws and is short or irritable. It’s tough striking the balance between respecting him and me- being understanding and not growing resentful. So incredibly hard for me. i think it's very important to look deeply and honestly at the anxious preoccupied trance of choosing an emotionally unavailable partner to play out the attachment injury script. it gets lost in the story of the relationship and what one imagines it could or should be. then the avoidant is the bad guy failing to be what you need. but you chose him INSTEAD of an available partner. you have a choice. do not forget- if you are AP you did this. you created this trap for yourself. he's just the other participant. he created a trap too. he can't blame anyone just like you can't. script. narrative. injury. that's the subplot to this story. and you're rebelling against the partner you chose specifically, unconsciously, because he fit your abandonment narrative. i didn't make this up. it's suggested by the literature. understand your own internal drama to be free from it. you cannot change someone else, nor are you entitled to someone else. you have to heal yourself , not "heal" your partner. your partner has to heal themselves , not "heal" you. once a level of health and reciprocity is reached then partners can be interdependent and help each other grow. when that happens it doesn't look like this tired tale. it is a tired tale, from the attachment theory perspective. it's textbook. again, i did not make this up. stop seeing the AP/Avoidant trap as anything other than what it is. stop seeing your part as anything other than what it is. stop seeing your partner's part as anything other than it is. your situation is not unique, it is textbook. you aren't the good strong person to his weak wounded person. you aren't the healthy person to his unhealthy person. you aren't the answer to his problem. he isn't the answer to yours. you don't accept him as he is, you don't accept that he has withdrawn, and told you that he can't do what you need. you want him to do what you want him to do- is that right? you want him to be more like you, don't you? you want him to meet your expectations, and he doesn't. am i off base? whatever he isn't doing, you don't accept that he has autonomy and freedom to be exactly as he is whether you endorse and accept it or not, and you have the freedom and responsibility to decide what works for you only, not what you think should work for him or your idea of "us". it is what it is, he is as he is, you are as you are. now- what does anyone owe you? what do you owe anyone? what do you owe yourself? questions to ponder. these are attachment wounds. what do you think about that, when you set aside your agenda to have what you want? these are deep matters. underlying it all is excruciating pain in his psyche, and in yours. are you tired of tippy toeing? why are you tippy toeing? that's what you've got to look at. what's your attachment narrative? are you as eager to identify it as you are to identify his? are you projecting anything? are you wrestling with your own shadow? fair questions, in response to your comments and questions. i'm here to heal myself not complain about a partner. i'm here to deal with my triggers, my wounding, my narrative, my dysfunction, my unavailability. i've answered some questions of yours and i just had some of my own, not because i need the answers but you might? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2018 17:18:58 GMT
my intention is not to wound but to challenge this narrative.
this pain doesn't end until we can see it clearly.
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 12, 2018 19:45:01 GMT
Very true juniper....I've had to change the narrative from "him" to "me". So I have to own where I am still challenged by behaviors and beliefs that either make me a victim or make me a savior....it isn't pretty...but it's authentic for who I am. I don't refer to B as "my ex"....he was never "mine". I don't harbor any ill will towards him....he is who he is...I am who I am...he has moved on....it is I who has to address my moments of longing. So I choose to stay at a distance..I don't see him...I only occasionally text with him to catch up and I never ask personal things...mainly we text about his job/my job/vacations etc. Everyone must determine what level of engagement is ok....I would encourage instead of trying to figure out an angle...to determine what is ok for you and then sticking with it. It will truly be ok..even if it doesn't feel ok. Sending hugs. |
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