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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 3, 2017 20:29:31 GMT
You have a really good grasp of this generally. And I don't disagree with your "wanting what you can't have" theory for why my own Avoidant tendencies might have been subjugated when faced with the stronger avoidant tendencies of my Ex partner.
But I think I might just add a few things to the theoretical mix.
In my case, I also have an additional personality disorder working in the background (narcissistic tendencies), and if you know anything about narcissists, we hate to be ignored. So the Fearful Avoidance was trumped by strong needs for attention.... which was also tempered by an aversion to true intimacy, not just because of the avoidant traits. Round and round it went..
Bottom line, it was a big disaster.
As for your hair-trigger sensitivity theory: I agree with you there also, but would suggest there may be more at play. I know my DA partner was hobbled in his realistic assessment of things by a lot of distorted thinking. He saw rejection/potential rejection at virtually every turn, even when it was not present in an objective sense. So -- not to quibble, or slice it too thinly - but it was a combination of "sensitivity" to reality-based circumstances, plus reactivity to perceived or subjective rejection opportunities or dangers that did not truly exist.
(My own disorders make me guilty of this as well, but they run in the direction of perceived slights, not getting attention, or the perception of being abandoned, even when it is not objectively true.)
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Post by robnew on May 3, 2017 21:21:28 GMT
Haha, I think everyone hates being ignored, which is why the silent treatment is so difficult to handle.
I don't think you're quibbling, and agree with what you say about sensitivity to rejection. I thought my ex left due to an argument, although deep down I knew that was an excuse. I initially thought it was possibly due to fear of intimacy, as we'd been living together a few months, and things were going really well, and then she started to withdraw a little. However, in a drunken conversation after we split, she said she thought I was losing interest, and so perhaps it was a pre emptive strike. Of course I wasn't losing interest, and was just not chasing as she withdrew, and trying to be calm and understanding about it.
So what was it that caused you to leave in the end? Was it any one thing, or a combination? Do you miss the relationship?
The hardest part to deal with is the ever switching needs, as even she said that timing was everything with her. Even after we'd split, some days she'd be distant, and closed to the idea of reconciliation, even though she never said she felt pressured by me. Other days she'd cry and say how much she missed things. Whilst other days she's seemed open to the idea, and keen to try, and frustrated by what she said as me being guarded, and taking things slow; and yet resistant when I tried to move things forward.
To be honest, up until a few weeks ago I thought we were on track for getting back together, as things were going great, and she's aware of her issues, and said she wanted to try and deal with them. But I'm not so confident now.
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 3, 2017 21:44:37 GMT
So what was it that caused you to leave in the end? Was it any one thing, or a combination? Do you miss the relationship? I left because I realized that even being quite self-aware, and even though he was quite willing to work on his issues, we were getting nowhere. We were at a point where he was starting to pressure me to move in together (ironically), but meanwhile he was starting to increase his distancing behaviors. The more he talked about moving in, the more distant he got the rest of the time. This of course triggered my own Fearful Anxious reactions. It had been a full year of that on a low level but in the past few months it had really ramped up significantly.
I could imagine him unpacking the moving truck, and then driving off in it, never to be seen again.
So out of compassion, I actually deliberately orchestrated a situation where HE THINKS he broke up with ME, or at least that the split was mutual, because I did not want him to feel that he had been rejected, since this was a constant and unrelenting theme in the substratum of our interactions. So I deliberately created a situation where -- unrelated to his professed interest in moving in together -- he would be called upon to truly move closer on the intimacy scale, knowing full well that he would not be able to handle that next step. Essentially, I called his bluff, and as expected, he bolted. I am sure he is greatly relieved, though I don't know because we are NC and I suspect I will never hear from him again.
Do I miss the relationship? Somewhat, but it's still early days of NC. Realistically, I know the attraction was based not on traditional "love" but rather on an irresistible pull of two disordered people who were destined to play out this little psychodrama. His issues meshed with mine, and it ran its course as it had to. it was never going to work and I went into it knowing that I would be pushing my own intimacy boundaries, to see how far they could be stretched. Incidentally, in the past I have dated several other intimacy-challenged people (I'm like a magnet! or better put, we are magnets for each other, LOL). This has included a diagnosed Narcissist, a suspected Narcissist, and a diagnosed Borderline Personality Disordered male. (These diagnoses all came to light late in the day). I come from a family of Narcissists so I'm well-familiar with the push-pull and the nature of the repetition compulsion that draws me into these scenarios.
In retrospect it's never what I would call "Fun", but I do learn a lot about myself each time.
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Post by robnew on May 3, 2017 22:30:03 GMT
Oh, now I have lots of questions, if I'm not being too nosey.
Do you think maybe his increased distancing was in reaction to your own reluctance to move in, and was just self preservation on his part? Maybe he'd have felt more comfortable and less elusive if you had.
I say this because sometimes people are too quick to blame a label, and forget that people's actions rarely occur in a vacuum. For example, whilst I'm certain that my ex's avoidance issues were behind our split, and subsequent inability to reconcile, I'm equally certain that her actions were totally in response to mine. As such, how someone acts, despite their own nature, is just as much in response to how the other person behaves, as you know yourself, by switching from avoidant to anxious in response to another. In fact many anxious types are often blissfully unaware that their anxiety plays as much a part in pushing an avoidant away, as the avoidant's own fears, and so are baffled when they see their previously indifferent and elusive ex suddenly addicted to a more indifferent or narcissistic partner, and so just put it down to her being fickle, selfish and uncaring.
What would you have seen as getting somewhere, and how much do you think your fears were real or imagined?
What would you have done if he called your bluff? Did you want things to end, or would you have stayed if he conceded to your request to move things forward?
Was the NC mutually agreed, or is it just that neither of you have contacted the other? How long has it been?
Slightly unrelated but, as you mentioned the subject, where do you see the difference between avoidance characteristics and borderline, as many traits overlap?
Sorry for all the questions, it's just that I'm curious by nature, and find the subject fascinating, so please feel free to tell me to piss off if you find them either intrusive or you can't be bothered.
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 3, 2017 23:05:42 GMT
Happy to answer these questions, in order:
1) His distancing was primarily based on his own fears, I think. He has a long, LONG history of very short or disconnected relationships (short dating situations of 2-3 months maximum, or else a long marriage where he essentially worked the day shift and she worked the night shift the entire time. He also had one living-together arrangement where he bailed suddenly and without warning, shortly after moving in with her).
2) With that said, I admit that a lot of these Avoidant behaviors are reactive. But that's the case in all normal relationships as well, we respond to each other, good or bad. Plus add relationship history, family of origin stuff, etc. Hard to untangle the ball of yarn.
3) "Getting somewhere" in the relationship was always a moving goalpost. The first couple years of the relationship were long distance, so there was inherent distance (suited him very well, but deeply challenged my Fearful Avoidant traits). Then he moved closer.. but started to distance more. In fact I think we saw each other less AFTER the move, than before. Every step forward was accompanied by two steps back.
4) He was never going to call my bluff. Not ever. And yes, I wanted things to end. From a connection/communication standpoint it was incredibly frustrating right from the beginning. I had been trying to end it (in spurts) for the past 3 of the 4 years, but the Attachment style "dance" was very compelling. My control needs also got in the way, but that's another story.
5) No formal agreement re: NC. We have just not reached out to each other for more than a month.
6) Borderline Personality Disorder and Avoidant attachment challenges are totally unlike each other. Having dated both, it's like night and day. People with BPD are a chaotic mess of drama, neediness, clinging, dark moods, irrationality, unpredictability, push-pull. Total, utter chaos of the "I hate you.... don't leave me" variety. By contrast the Avoidant is just icy-cold emotionally, very self-protective and well-defended, but with confusing and fleeting moments of genuine affection and vulnerability. Followed of course by distancing and withdrawal.
I think that answers most of it for you.
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 3, 2017 23:12:35 GMT
PS. I don't think the *traits* of BPD and Avoidants overlap. Rather, it's the core *origin* of the disorders that are similar, in that they are both born of childhood neglect, abuse or enmeshment. But despite the similar origins, the manifestations and defensive mechanism of the two types of disorders are almost diametrically opposed, in my experience. Plus people with BPD have a very labile sense of self, which is not quite so deep or chronic in Avoidants, I think.
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Post by mrscuba on May 3, 2017 23:30:08 GMT
Hi Mrscuba Perhaps I can explain some of the things that appear confusing, based on my own experience with my avoidant ex girlfriend. Of course there's no one size fits all, as everyone is different, but I'll try to point out some things you said that I can relate to, and hopefully that will help. The pet dog thing is easy to understand. My ex said she didn't believe in love, and would run from anyone who said they loved her. However, she was always pushing for a puppy. I used to tease her, and told her I knew why, and that it was because a puppy would love her and never leave her, and she would laugh and admit it. One the one hand she'd dismiss love, but equally could admit to wanting to love and be loved, as long as she knew it would be unconditional, and with absolutely no fear of losing it. I too got mixed messages, but they were never deliberate. She wanted to move in with me, and pushed me to admit my feelings, but then would withdraw when things got close. She wanted closeness and intimacy, but was then scared when she got it. So, I'd ignore her moods and withdrawals, and she'd usually come out of it after a few hours and apologise. Such mixed messages appear contradictory, and even manipulative at times, but in reality they were simply an expression of the mixed messages she was constantly receiving from her own feelings and emotions. My ex liked me being in control of some things, but I think she also hated not being in control of things. After we'd broken up, it looked as though we might reconcile, and were getting on well. However, in part due to work pressures, she did a sudden 180 and started to withdraw totally and become unresponsive, without explanation. Maybe that would have been temporary but, instead of ignoring it, I phoned her and told her I could see she was stressed, and that maybe I should give her a bit of space. Instead of taking it as me being considerate, she got agitated and angry, and hung up on me, and went into full avoidance mode. I can only guess that she took that either as me wanting my space to let go and move on, and thus rejection; or that she wanted space, but wanted to be the one in control of it. Equally, there's nothing confusing or hypocritical about her having time for others, but not for you, once you understand it. In fact it's a compliment in some ways. An avoidant person has highly sensitive emotions, which react most strongly to those they feel closest too. On the one hand they want closeness, and on the other they fear it, and so are in constant internal conflict. Other people don't trigger this conflict, because they're not emotionally invested in those people, and so they can't hurt them. That's why she says it isn't tiring for her to speak with them, as she has no attachment to them. So, her coldness is not that she's uncaring of your feelings, but more that her fears are more important. Your feelings are a burden, not because she's selfish, but because they're a responsibility she's simply incapable of taking on when she's already struggling to manage her own. My ex told me on a number of occasions that she wanted to break up, because she loved being with me, but was in unbearable pain when we were apart, and so it would be easier to face that pain once and get it over with, than keep having it. It never occurred to her that it might hurt me to lose her, not because she didn't care about my feelings, but that her pain was so great that my feelings wouldn't even cross her radar. In fact, when she was in non avoidant mode, she was highly sensitive to how I felt and, even after we broke up, and she was trying to distance herself, she would fight for my attention and approval if she thought I was upset or disappointed with her. That's something that's hard to get your head around if you don't think and feel that way, but if you can even slightly grasp it, you'll see that the coldness isn't personal, but about self preservation. Bottom line is, that in my experience, such a person is in perpetual conflict. The push/pull that many people talk of is not deliberate, and possibly something they're not even aware that they're doing to you. Instead it's their own emotions doing it to them, and you're just the collateral damage of their reaction to it. They want intimacy, but fear it, not for its own sake, but because of the fear that ultimately they'll lose it. Nothing you can say can ease that feeling. You can't logic your way round deep emotional feelings and beliefs, which of course is what most people try to do. That just tends to make it worse though, as naturally your instinct is to do it at a time of crisis, when the avoidant person is pulling away, which then just adds pressure and pushes them even further away, often resulting in panic on both sides. In fact, when they're in avoidant mode, there's nothing you can do or say to make things better, and anything you try to do is more likely to make it worse. The only thing you can do is ride it out, and wait to see if and when that avoidant phase passes. The hardest thing is to find the right balance. That being an ability to allow someone the space they need, without getting anxious about it, so as not to smother them; whilst equally not appearing to be too aloof and uncaring about it, so that they don't feel rejected. It's therefore a constant battle of not triggering their fear of being smothered, whilst not triggering their fear of abandonment either, as one will make them run to get breathing space, and the other will make them run out of fear of rejection. That balance is almost impossible, especially if you're more the anxious type, as your natural reaction is to try and pull when someone pushes, when it's actually better to either accept being pushed, or at most stand firm. That means that you never know where you stand with them, as their behaviours can be opposite to how you'd expect someone to react. For example, if someone pushes you away, it's normal to assume that they want out but, with someone avoidant, that may be the case, or it could simply mean that they're feeling a bit overwhelmed and need some breathing space, before re entering the relationship. In that sense, what appears to be sabotaging the relationship, can actually be a means to maintain it, but of course you never know, and in some cases neither do they. All you can ever do is go with their flow, instead of trying to fight it, and it either swings back in your direction or it doesn't. That's hard to do, as you have your needs too, and so it's terribly one sided and, unless you're unusually thick skinned, it's often best to accept that it just won't work. That's just how I see things, based on my own experience but, like I said, it will no doubt vary from person to person. Thank you very much for the time, effort and detail you put into this... this makes so much sense to me and I'm so glad you posted this here for me and anyone else looking for understanding for something that is hard to understand. Thanks! |
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Post by robnew on May 3, 2017 23:58:35 GMT
Thanks for that HowPredictable1, it seems to make sense to me.
Do you actually want a relationship, and think you could ever handle one. Obviously a lot would depend on the other person, so what do you think you'd look for in someone? Is there a balance you'd find stable, or at least tolerable, and better than being alone?
As for the differences between avoidance and borderline, they're not quite so distinct to an outsider, unless of course someone's on the extremes.
The wanting intimacy and then withdrawing from it results in a similar push/pull dynamic, often rooted in abandonment fears.
My ex had random and unpredictable (at least to me) dark mood swings, but I suppose never really any outward anger. Mostly she'd just want a bit of space to get over it, and then would apologise afterwards if she was snappy.
Nor was she icy cold with me, unless angry. Guarded yes, but the moments of affection and vulnerability were more than fleeting, and for the most part were driven more by her than me, and the withdrawals not that often, and usually short lived.
She would admit to wanting to be loved, but also that she could never love anyone, and would run from anyone who said they loved her. She wasn't so much scared of needy people, but saw it as a weakness, and would lose respect for anyone who showed it. In fact respect for a partner was a big deal for her, and she'd be very remorseful if ever she thought she was disrespectful to me.
It was really hard to understand the apparent contradictions, such as almost angrily wanting space, which I was happy to give, even by leaving for a couple of days. But what she meant by that was leaving her alone, whilst still knowing I was just in another room.
Also, she didn't want to sleep in the same bed, so slept on the sofa, but wanted me to stay and watch tv whilst she fell asleep in my lap.
She said she hated mushy, romantic stuff, and yet loved it when I left her random notes, and complained when I didn't.
She did also say that she was aware she was a black and white thinker.
All that seemed irrational and unpredictable to me, so does that sound more like bpd or avoidance, as I did wonder at first, as the nuances are a little hard to see when it's something you're not accustomed to?
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Post by robnew on May 4, 2017 2:53:57 GMT
You're welcome Mrscuba, although sadly it only gives an insight into why things go wrong, which otherwise appear completely impossible to understand. It doesn't really help much to fix anything.
That's not to say that such relationships aren't possible, but they have their challenges. The first being that you need to be aware of the underlying reasons for the seemingly irrational behaviour from the outset. If you only cotton on half way through, or towards the end, you're playing catch up in a game that you'll usually always be outpaced in.
Nor must you try and take on the role of fixer, as it won't work, and ultimately you'll be resented for it. The best approach I found was to appear to act as though you don't notice the random and unpredictable behaviour, or at least not appear to be fazed by it. The minute you are, no matter how justified, you put the spotlight on her which, although deep down she may know is the case, results in her defence mechanisms kicking in, and a default response of blaming you.
The hardest part to get over is not feeling a victim of it but, once you realise that they're just extremely terrified of being hurt and that, as the closest person to them, you can hurt them the most, then it's easier to not take it personally. Think of it like someone with the most excruciating all over sunburn, but with an overwhelming desire to be hugged, and you'll get a feel for why you get pulled in so eagerly, and then pushed away again so sharply.
Literally everything you say or do is analysed for its potential to be rejection or abandonment and, if interpreted that way, it will be reacted to accordingly. In a normal relationship you'd get a chance to discuss any such misunderstanding but, in one with an avoidant, your words have already been judged and sentenced, with little chance of an appeal.
So yeah, it's possible, but you have to always think before you speak and act, which isn't much fun. Of course the alternative to trying to constantly dance to an unpredictable tune, is to just play your own one, and stick rigidly to it, and hope that they're invested enough to want to follow along. That kind of works, as they can get caught up in being the follower rather than the leader, and so forget their own fears, as you're not demanding anything of them, and just allowing them to come along for the ride if they want. That's pretty true of most relationships really, in order to be truly happy, you just have to be yourself, and that either works for the other person or not, regardless of any other issues, and if it doesn't it's just what it is, and is no one's fault.
The one thing I do know is that it's not as irrational as it first seems. Like I said, it's mostly heightened sensitivity and lighting fast speed of reaction. It's a bit like listening to a recording played at 1000 times normal speed. It makes no sense at all, until you slow it down to normal speed and it all becomes clear. Given time, if you don't panic and overreact, they see it too, just not in the same order we do. We feel, think and then act, whereas they feel, act and then think.
It's neither conscious, deliberate or controllable, and simply instinctive and conditioned. As such I don't judge, as it's no more irrational than the fact that I smoke. I know it's not good for me, it costs a fortune, and I get nothing from it, and yet I still can't help doing it.
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Post by mrscuba on May 8, 2017 15:05:14 GMT
Update:
Since everyone here was so helpful I figured I'd give an update. Now that I myself have lowered my expectations and romantic requirements since we are just now friends she seems to be basically almost back to normal. Though she said she wants more time to pass to see if we can basically evaluate our feelings... however I won't go back to this cycle and I'll
Just stay her close friend and probably keep her at a safe distance. We have been hanging out a lot but not as much and haven't been intimate. In a fucked up way, if I didn't have any intimacy or romantic needs I bet this could
Work as she now loves to spend more time with me. It's almost as if this weight of some sort has been lifted off her shoulders. She even invites me now to do stuff and will hold my hand but only briefly! (This is shocking to me!). I have been reminding myself that this isn't her getting "better" but rather this is the sad state of what she Dan handle. It all
Makes sense now why she dated and married damaged men that kept
Their distance from her. It's kind of surreal to see this now but taking into consideration what you all have told me, I've been able to be much smarter about this and protect myself. Another shocker, before I left her place yesterday after going to the gym and watching a few movies (that was it) she gave a huge hug and a very loving kiss on the cheek... it's interesting to me
To finally start to understand that all of what I saw from her before was a giant defense mechanism that she herself didn't understand.
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Post by stalich on Jun 18, 2017 18:01:37 GMT
Hello everyone, I want to thank anyone who stumbles upon this and reads what i have to say as i hope this will contribute to clarity. I suspect that what i'm about to write here has been shared here numerous times before me in some way shape or form but i'm writing this for me and to see how others feel. Some quick info about me: Im a 32 year old male from the New England area, i work as an Electrical engineer and have leared from jeb's material and Dr Stan Tatkin that i seem to fall under the pre-occupied spectrum of attachment, i also have ADHD and take aderall for it. In October of 2016 i started dating a co-worker whom i have always absolutely loved and adored, she is a little older than me in her early to mid 40's, however when i met her in 2014 she was unhappily married and i was always there to support her though there was always a special bond between us and even now she agrees to this. Her husband was an alchoholic that she knew when she was in college but they reunited over the internet and had a distance relationship. Eventually after visiting back and forth they decided to get married so she took the chance and moved here and found a job where i currently work. What she didn't know is that he was an alchoholic, was diagnosed with aspergers (super highly functional) and also had a son (that she knew and met a few times before) but that he too was functioning autistic. So needless to say he ended up manipulating her, using her for money, and she was basically miserable and just hiding in her basement all the time to be alone. Long story short, they got divorced and he sort of conned and manipulated over $60K from her 401k... this left her very sad... around this time i moved job facility locations to another area nearby so we lost touch but kept in frequent distant contact. About a year later, we started talking more and i eventually asked her out. I figured a year had passed and she had started to heal and was maybe ready to date since we both always felt a strong mutual attraction. She is a very warm and loving person and incredibly caring at work and this was incredibly appealing. So we start dating and we hit it off... sparks fly, it's the happiest i've ever been in my life. The perception i had of her being an amazing person an would make an amazing partner was validated. within a very short period of time the feelings we had for one another just flourished and it didn't take long for us to express our love for one another and after a few short months we discussed moving in and a few other things. She met my family and everyone loved her, and i met her family it was all great. However there were times early on when she would focus on work or school and it would seem like i was almost invisible to her, and i kept wanting to spend time with her to offer comfort and support because that's just how i am and how i've done things. I've never been considered needy or clingy before, but holy shit, this woman drew this into overdrive. I became a helpless lost puppy wondering what went wrong. She would then bounce back and become "normal" after i would not be there for a few days. I found out she had been married 3 times in total, that her father was basically absent from her life and as a child expressed that he basically wanted nothing to do with her, and her step father molested her... heres some noteworthy info: her mom has been married 5 times and is now going through an unbelievably horrible lawsuit that is going to strip her of eveerything because of her late husband #5. My girlfriend and i, through converstaions have come to the realization that she sabotages relationships when they get too close and she pushes people away. It appears she only lasted in her marriages as long as she did because these men were basically incredibly avoidant or didn't really care about her. Interestingly, this made her feel unloved and sad and empty inside but the irony is she seems to panic and get suffocated when closeness happens. We've taken "breaks" a few times when she gets incredibly stressed out, i seem to always be the only thing she has control of to push away, between her trying to support her crazy mom through her hard times, dealing with what happened in her last marriage, and the craziness her and i both experience in our highly demanding careers. She says she can't show affection to me right now and has to withdraw and says stuff about how she has limited energy for this relationship and its too much for her... yet as she is saying this she is petting her dog, kissing it and saying how much she loves it lol... She finally ended it but we basically said it was a long break... no more " i love you's" or kisses or affection, and i can't ask to hang out with her but she wants me to give her a chance to invite me back into her life (if that ever happens)... she says she loves me and i'm the best person she's ever dated but that she's a broken and defective person... in short she said he's a "lemon", and she doesn't know why i put up with her "craziness" and "instability". I'm just hurt because it feels as though we've made substantial progress but as we make progress and understand eachother better she seems to find a way to keep me at a distance... for example she randomly asked for my keys back to her apartment, i couldn't shower or stay over anymore because it would stress her out, she would stop offering me things when she'd get up to get them (which was surprisingly hurtful). Now she says she just wants to distance to be my best friend. There were so many red flags that i ignored because i love her, and even now she still says i don't deserve what she is doing to me... she has sent so many mixed messages bu i'm not sure if that was just to drive me away but i guess it never did since i just wanted to be there for her and support her. At one point she was the most amazing person I've ever loved in my life and now it seems like she doesn't want to care about my needs or feelings and constantly has mixed emotions and feelings. Sometimes it feels like my presence bothers her and everything i do is just problematic or burdensome. She will call me dramatic or get angry when i want to talk about stuff, then i make mention of her ex husbands and the other men that have done bad things to her dramatically in life and she gets angry at that. She has started seeing a therapist a few months back but i feel like she isn't up front with the guy and seems to blame herself for my presence in her life saying that she needs to be able to establish more boundaries. She doesn't like to leave her apartment much or be around people outside of work though she is one of the most charismatic and charming people i've ever met. She's not controlling but she's a control freak and seems to panic when things are out of her control... one of the silly reasons she said she didn't want me to shower there anymore after we go to the gym is that the idea of using a towel after shes done laundry and things getting wet in there stress her out to no end. I try to convince her this is craziness and i think she knows but this whole pushing me away and controlling what access i have to her life seems to help her cope. She talks so much about how she needs "alone time" or " quiet time". Before we broke up she had talked about this guy that she dated after her divorce, turns out the guy lied about being married and she felt used for sex only once a week... but she said that it was easier to feel used and abused because at least she knew what to expect and she could get her "alone time" back. The more we try to talk about stuff she just says "i'm drained and i don't have the energy to deal with this". The reason it hurts so god damned much is because she manages to have energy and can be interrupted to solve other peoples issues or handle other things like it's no problem but once it comes to us and her she gets incredibly edgy and defensive and "drained". Its so confusing to me why i'm being treated this way... she wants me one second and then the next she doesn't. She even makes a big deal about me texting her a few times a day sometimes, she says its too much and it stresses her out, but i see her text friends and work peers all the time... I then ask her about that and why that isn't tiring her and she responds "well that's different i'm not in a romantic relationship with them" as if i'm truly supposed to know what the hell that hypocrisy even means?!?! Am i the crazy one or the overly attached one? i'm here to see if others have maybe experienced this or can make sense of it somewhat, somehow. My guess is that she falls under some type of avoidant attachment as her mom has admitted to me that as a child she wasn't as affectionate or loving or playful with her as she probably should have been. Maybe her and i have fallen under the preoccupied-avoidant relationship cycle I've read about here already. I've been sensing her withdrawing and she says she feels like she is also a bad girlfriend because she can't be "kissy, lovey or huggy" with me. I told her that i'm here for her and she always says some excuse now as to why it's not fair to me and she can't stand that she's a bad girlfriend. I always ask, "well why can't we work through this together, you've been an amazing girlfriend before and now you just seem to be going through things i don't understand and you won't communicate with me" and she basically just doesn't want to talk much further and seems annoyed. She has tried to end this relationship 3-4 times always when she was feeling stress from school and work and quite frankly i'm tired and exhausted and emotionally drained. A part of me feels like if she wants to give this another chance that it's not fair to me like she says. Maybe this is my inner anxious attachment speaking but i get so hurt and angry at the idea that if we truly break up she will find some other guy and treat him perfectly the way i want to be treated and he would probably be a scum bag... i say this only because she has admitted that shes not used to men being nice and loving to her, shes used to takers and abusers because that's what she has grown up knowing. At first i thought she was full of crap, then she explained to me she has an M.O of sabotaging relationships with men that are too "nice". So i asked her "am i just not broken or awful enough or selfish enough to date you?" and she just gives me this sad stare like she feels guilty. She constantly struggles with feeling inadequate in many facets or her life, and apparently with us where she feels like i deserve better than her since she's "broken and defective" and she "cant handle this anymore". She also says she doesn't know "how to navigate in this relationship" because shes never gotten close to someone like before not even her ex husbands. According to her, her and i have had more sex and intimacy than her previous husbands or relationships that lasted up to 5 years. That probably should have been a red flag since we were very intimate very often for a while then when we got back from visiting her mother in another state is when she completely changed on me. I'm sorry for rambling but i think this is a way for me to share my feelings and getting some sort of help. i've even started seeing a therapist for this on top of my med checks for my aderall because this has left me feeling so spun up and drained. can anyone offer some insight, do you think i'm right, or am i wrong... From your experiences what does this sound like to you all? Is this really how she probably is? uncaring of my needs and feelings and having to be somewhat cold towards me in order for her to feel safe? Thank you to everyone in advance for reading this and sharing your thoughts, if this didn't make sense please feel free to ask clarifying questions as i am still somewhat stressed, anxious and distraught over this whole thing. She hasn't completely cut me off and she is basically treating me like i'm her best friend again, which is fine but it still hurts. She has expressed that she feels sorry this hurt me but it doesn't really make me feel better lol |
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Post by stalich on Jun 18, 2017 18:03:23 GMT
Hello everyone, I want to thank anyone who stumbles upon this and reads what i have to say as i hope this will contribute to clarity. I suspect that what i'm about to write here has been shared here numerous times before me in some way shape or form but i'm writing this for me and to see how others feel. Some quick info about me: Im a 32 year old male from the New England area, i work as an Electrical engineer and have leared from jeb's material and Dr Stan Tatkin that i seem to fall under the pre-occupied spectrum of attachment, i also have ADHD and take aderall for it. In October of 2016 i started dating a co-worker whom i have always absolutely loved and adored, she is a little older than me in her early to mid 40's, however when i met her in 2014 she was unhappily married and i was always there to support her though there was always a special bond between us and even now she agrees to this. Her husband was an alchoholic that she knew when she was in college but they reunited over the internet and had a distance relationship. Eventually after visiting back and forth they decided to get married so she took the chance and moved here and found a job where i currently work. What she didn't know is that he was an alchoholic, was diagnosed with aspergers (super highly functional) and also had a son (that she knew and met a few times before) but that he too was functioning autistic. So needless to say he ended up manipulating her, using her for money, and she was basically miserable and just hiding in her basement all the time to be alone. Long story short, they got divorced and he sort of conned and manipulated over $60K from her 401k... this left her very sad... around this time i moved job facility locations to another area nearby so we lost touch but kept in frequent distant contact. About a year later, we started talking more and i eventually asked her out. I figured a year had passed and she had started to heal and was maybe ready to date since we both always felt a strong mutual attraction. She is a very warm and loving person and incredibly caring at work and this was incredibly appealing. So we start dating and we hit it off... sparks fly, it's the happiest i've ever been in my life. The perception i had of her being an amazing person an would make an amazing partner was validated. within a very short period of time the feelings we had for one another just flourished and it didn't take long for us to express our love for one another and after a few short months we discussed moving in and a few other things. She met my family and everyone loved her, and i met her family it was all great. However there were times early on when she would focus on work or school and it would seem like i was almost invisible to her, and i kept wanting to spend time with her to offer comfort and support because that's just how i am and how i've done things. I've never been considered needy or clingy before, but holy shit, this woman drew this into overdrive. I became a helpless lost puppy wondering what went wrong. She would then bounce back and become "normal" after i would not be there for a few days. I found out she had been married 3 times in total, that her father was basically absent from her life and as a child expressed that he basically wanted nothing to do with her, and her step father molested her... heres some noteworthy info: her mom has been married 5 times and is now going through an unbelievably horrible lawsuit that is going to strip her of eveerything because of her late husband #5. My girlfriend and i, through converstaions have come to the realization that she sabotages relationships when they get too close and she pushes people away. It appears she only lasted in her marriages as long as she did because these men were basically incredibly avoidant or didn't really care about her. Interestingly, this made her feel unloved and sad and empty inside but the irony is she seems to panic and get suffocated when closeness happens. We've taken "breaks" a few times when she gets incredibly stressed out, i seem to always be the only thing she has control of to push away, between her trying to support her crazy mom through her hard times, dealing with what happened in her last marriage, and the craziness her and i both experience in our highly demanding careers. She says she can't show affection to me right now and has to withdraw and says stuff about how she has limited energy for this relationship and its too much for her... yet as she is saying this she is petting her dog, kissing it and saying how much she loves it lol... She finally ended it but we basically said it was a long break... no more " i love you's" or kisses or affection, and i can't ask to hang out with her but she wants me to give her a chance to invite me back into her life (if that ever happens)... she says she loves me and i'm the best person she's ever dated but that she's a broken and defective person... in short she said he's a "lemon", and she doesn't know why i put up with her "craziness" and "instability". I'm just hurt because it feels as though we've made substantial progress but as we make progress and understand eachother better she seems to find a way to keep me at a distance... for example she randomly asked for my keys back to her apartment, i couldn't shower or stay over anymore because it would stress her out, she would stop offering me things when she'd get up to get them (which was surprisingly hurtful). Now she says she just wants to distance to be my best friend. There were so many red flags that i ignored because i love her, and even now she still says i don't deserve what she is doing to me... she has sent so many mixed messages bu i'm not sure if that was just to drive me away but i guess it never did since i just wanted to be there for her and support her. At one point she was the most amazing person I've ever loved in my life and now it seems like she doesn't want to care about my needs or feelings and constantly has mixed emotions and feelings. Sometimes it feels like my presence bothers her and everything i do is just problematic or burdensome. She will call me dramatic or get angry when i want to talk about stuff, then i make mention of her ex husbands and the other men that have done bad things to her dramatically in life and she gets angry at that. She has started seeing a therapist a few months back but i feel like she isn't up front with the guy and seems to blame herself for my presence in her life saying that she needs to be able to establish more boundaries. She doesn't like to leave her apartment much or be around people outside of work though she is one of the most charismatic and charming people i've ever met. She's not controlling but she's a control freak and seems to panic when things are out of her control... one of the silly reasons she said she didn't want me to shower there anymore after we go to the gym is that the idea of using a towel after shes done laundry and things getting wet in there stress her out to no end. I try to convince her this is craziness and i think she knows but this whole pushing me away and controlling what access i have to her life seems to help her cope. She talks so much about how she needs "alone time" or " quiet time". Before we broke up she had talked about this guy that she dated after her divorce, turns out the guy lied about being married and she felt used for sex only once a week... but she said that it was easier to feel used and abused because at least she knew what to expect and she could get her "alone time" back. The more we try to talk about stuff she just says "i'm drained and i don't have the energy to deal with this". The reason it hurts so god damned much is because she manages to have energy and can be interrupted to solve other peoples issues or handle other things like it's no problem but once it comes to us and her she gets incredibly edgy and defensive and "drained". Its so confusing to me why i'm being treated this way... she wants me one second and then the next she doesn't. She even makes a big deal about me texting her a few times a day sometimes, she says its too much and it stresses her out, but i see her text friends and work peers all the time... I then ask her about that and why that isn't tiring her and she responds "well that's different i'm not in a romantic relationship with them" as if i'm truly supposed to know what the hell that hypocrisy even means?!?! Am i the crazy one or the overly attached one? i'm here to see if others have maybe experienced this or can make sense of it somewhat, somehow. My guess is that she falls under some type of avoidant attachment as her mom has admitted to me that as a child she wasn't as affectionate or loving or playful with her as she probably should have been. Maybe her and i have fallen under the preoccupied-avoidant relationship cycle I've read about here already. I've been sensing her withdrawing and she says she feels like she is also a bad girlfriend because she can't be "kissy, lovey or huggy" with me. I told her that i'm here for her and she always says some excuse now as to why it's not fair to me and she can't stand that she's a bad girlfriend. I always ask, "well why can't we work through this together, you've been an amazing girlfriend before and now you just seem to be going through things i don't understand and you won't communicate with me" and she basically just doesn't want to talk much further and seems annoyed. She has tried to end this relationship 3-4 times always when she was feeling stress from school and work and quite frankly i'm tired and exhausted and emotionally drained. A part of me feels like if she wants to give this another chance that it's not fair to me like she says. Maybe this is my inner anxious attachment speaking but i get so hurt and angry at the idea that if we truly break up she will find some other guy and treat him perfectly the way i want to be treated and he would probably be a scum bag... i say this only because she has admitted that shes not used to men being nice and loving to her, shes used to takers and abusers because that's what she has grown up knowing. At first i thought she was full of crap, then she explained to me she has an M.O of sabotaging relationships with men that are too "nice". So i asked her "am i just not broken or awful enough or selfish enough to date you?" and she just gives me this sad stare like she feels guilty. She constantly struggles with feeling inadequate in many facets or her life, and apparently with us where she feels like i deserve better than her since she's "broken and defective" and she "cant handle this anymore". She also says she doesn't know "how to navigate in this relationship" because shes never gotten close to someone like before not even her ex husbands. According to her, her and i have had more sex and intimacy than her previous husbands or relationships that lasted up to 5 years. That probably should have been a red flag since we were very intimate very often for a while then when we got back from visiting her mother in another state is when she completely changed on me. I'm sorry for rambling but i think this is a way for me to share my feelings and getting some sort of help. i've even started seeing a therapist for this on top of my med checks for my aderall because this has left me feeling so spun up and drained. can anyone offer some insight, do you think i'm right, or am i wrong... From your experiences what does this sound like to you all? Is this really how she probably is? uncaring of my needs and feelings and having to be somewhat cold towards me in order for her to feel safe? Thank you to everyone in advance for reading this and sharing your thoughts, if this didn't make sense please feel free to ask clarifying questions as i am still somewhat stressed, anxious and distraught over this whole thing. She hasn't completely cut me off and she is basically treating me like i'm her best friend again, which is fine but it still hurts. She has expressed that she feels sorry this hurt me but it doesn't really make me feel better lol |
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Post by stalich on Jun 18, 2017 18:30:41 GMT
This is for mrscuba. I feel your pain. I'm going thru the same thing with a co-worker. I started dating this person not knowing anything about what I learned after our "break". She is an avoidant and I was blindsided. She did warn me however that I should "run" while I could and didn't want a relationship yet we dated like we were in one. It sucks cause I still have to work with her. At work she was distant and cold and it was almost as if she didn't even know me. She was adamant about not wanting to talk about things or feelings. I always wanted to know where I stood with her and never got a straight answer other than I was "special". Intimacy was an issue.Just the way she would interact with me physically made me think she hadn't been with a lot of men. I could tell she didn't like to be touched. When we hugged she would embrace me for a few seconds then start patting me on the back like I was her brother. When we made love she would go cold and turn her back on me. Kissing her was like kissing someone when they're asleep. First 4 months were wonderful though. The last month was a downward spiral until we decided to take a break. I just couldn't seem to communicate with her. I started getting clingy. I thought I needed to do more for her which only drove her further away. She said I did everything right. Her head was in it but not her heart. After the first few weeks into our relationship she told me she wasn't used to being treated as kindly as I was treating her and she was thankful I was in her life. The men in her past relationships treated her badly, yet she says the love of her life was some co-worker that tried to get into everyone's pants and she said she was okay with his behavior. I never ever realized there are some many people out there with almost the exact same story. I want to do NC but I wonder if it will do any good since she didn't invest emotionally in our relationship. I don't know why I'm having such a hard time with this. If how I feel now is any indication of how an avoidant must feel with any kind of intimacy, then I wouldn't want to love either. This pain fucking sucks and drowns every other part of my life. If anything our break and NC has helped me to get myself back. Time heals all wounds so they say...give it time. I will never make the same mistake again. and my next relationship will be better for it. Yours will to my friend. Keep your head up.
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Post by anonymous10 on Jun 19, 2017 13:05:35 GMT
I had been trying to end it (in spurts) for the past 3 of the 4 years, but the Attachment style "dance" was very compelling. My control needs also got in the way, but that's another story. This is exactly what MrScuba and I discussed on my post in the DA section. My ex was FA with strong narcissistic tendencies. He has had this clingy BPD ex that has been his safety net for years. He doesn't want her but when she rejects him or she moves on, he is utterly so upset that he has lost control. I am a secure - and have always maintained my boundaries and never engaged in push/pull with him, as when he pulled I left for good. It was only when we bumped into each other a year later after NC that we reconnected. He was vulnerable, loving, reassuring and consistent (we only stayed friends). We both had strong feelings for each other again but it wasn't enough for me to make a commitment to someone who could hurt me by his own nature. 3 weeks after we went through this incredible stint together where he grew, FINALLY admitted the depth of his feelings for me.. did he reach out to his ex to 'get out his anger and be at peace with her' when he found out she had a boyfriend. I know it is completely different with her and I.. but it has always made me feel really insecure. Can you please elaborate what you meant by you 'control' needs. I am quite sure that my ex's control needs have a lot to do with why he went back and forth to this clingy ex, yet with me.. we fell so in love with each other and he ran and couldn't come back to me the way he did with the ex. He had much more fear. |
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Post by howpredictable on Jun 19, 2017 22:37:09 GMT
Anonymous10,
I can't speak for your Ex, but often these attachment disorders are co-morbid with other dysfunctional behaviors that also stem from childhood neglect or abuse. In my case, it's strong narcissistic tendencies. So those defence mechanisms end up being an "overlay" on top of the other attachment problems that already exist.
So I have really strong control needs, driven by a skewed, Ego-related viewpoint on the world. The fact that your Ex seems to response precisely when he feels a loss (of you, or the other woman) is imminent makes it seems like he is also driven by fear of losing control of either of you.
In my case, I don't want my Ex back, or ANY of my Exes back.... but I hate the thought of them going on to be happy with someone else. (In the case of the last Ex, He assuredly won't be, he's DA, so it's a theoretical threat to my Ego only). So while I would never reach out to try to get him back (because I'm self-awrae and mindful), the temptation is there to keep him connected and controlled so that he's there should I ever change my mind.
Sounds to me like that's what your Ex is doing with this woman. But I would hasten to add, Anonymous10, that your preoccupation with this is misguided. Don't turn his lack of post-disconnection disinterest in you into something that makes you feel like you are "less than" this other woman. He didn't come back to you that way, but that has nothing to do with your worth, relative to her. It's easy to personalize our Exes' reactions this way, but there are many dark and complicated forces at play with any relationship.
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