|
|
Post by goldilocks on Nov 1, 2018 21:17:19 GMT
The behaviour cris is describing sounds more FA than DA. Behaviour coming from any insecure attachment style is generally ineffective and each type can benefit from intervening in activation and deactivation of the attachment system. I found some tips on love compass and incorporated them into my plan of action.
I don´t think seeing people as toxic, especially irredeemably toxic, is useful to any person other than an author who needs to see an ex as such in order to be able to let them go. An author who is not accepting that two people can be good people who mean well, but who are simply not good together. To whom the idea that their ex may be able to have a healthier relationship with someone more compatible is too painful to entertain. Hurt people hurt people and even if most people who hurt you are not irredeemably toxic, they may simply be wrong for you and that makes it okay to let go. If someone is wrong for you, bending over backwards to be just right for them is simply a form of madness. That said, healing your wounds and learning healthier behaviours is a worthwhile endeavor.
Therapy can help us discern more keenly between trigger and intuition while learning more effective ways to communicate our needs and values can help us have more harmonious relationships with people who have compatible values and needs.
No method will make incompatible people compatible and the dynamic between two mispaired people can be very much toxic. AP-DA is a very risky combination, the AP-DA Trap is an inherently abusive screenplay and especially a DA is so much better off avoiding this mispairing.
Some research about domestic and intimate partner violence in relation to attachment style.
|
|
lilos
Full Member
Posts: 144
|
Post by lilos on Nov 1, 2018 21:35:01 GMT
Yeah, its shitty and it turned me off of attachment theory the first time I encountered it because it basically said "you are fucked up and toxic, everyone should run away from you." Well just as AP, the DA behaviour is toxic. Not everyone is the same and some may have more healthy boundaries, but still the push & pull, the keeping you close and one day wanting to work on the relationship and the next being awful to you, the sending cryptic messages to tell you they want to be with you. It's tricky and saying NO should be more than enough. But they feed the illusion and the maddening experience. Yes, the AP should say no but it's not as easy when you are feeling close to that person. Is not always an agenda. Is not being able to read the message clearly because it's ambivalent. So no offense to the ones who are DA but there's no one to blame here. If someone doesn't want to be in a relationship there's a very clear way of stating that. So yes, there's a reason why a lot of that literature point towards the pain caused. It doesn't matter how secure you are. I don’t know if anyone is saying that being avoidant isnt equally damaging to a relationship. I think they are both ineffective and hurtful to ourselves and other people. The question was simply reguarding how DAs are described as the worse off. We’re all just humans with bad habits and reactions. No one is the bad one. |
|
|
|
Post by epicgum on Nov 1, 2018 23:09:30 GMT
The behaviour cris is describing sounds more FA than DA. Behaviour coming from any insecure attachment style is generally ineffective and each type can benefit from intervening in activation and deactivation of the attachment system. I found some tips on love compass and incorporated them into my plan of action. I don´t think seeing people as toxic, especially irredeemably toxic, is useful to any person other than an author who needs to see an ex as such in order to be able to let them go. An author who is not accepting that two people can be good people who mean well, but who are simply not good together. To whom the idea that their ex may be able to have a healthier relationship with someone more compatible is too painful to entertain. Hurt people hurt people and even if most people who hurt you are not irredeemably toxic, they may simply be wrong for you and that makes it okay to let go. If someone is wrong for you, bending over backwards to be just right for them is simply a form of madness. That said, healing your wounds and learning healthier behaviours is a worthwhile endeavor. Therapy can help us discern more keenly between trigger and intuition while learning more effective ways to communicate our needs and values can help us have more harmonious relationships with people who have compatible values and needs. No method will make incompatible people compatible and the dynamic between two mispaired people can be very much toxic. AP-DA is a very risky combination, the AP-DA Trap is an inherently abusive screenplay and especially a DA is so much better off avoiding this mispairing. Some research about domestic and intimate partner violence in relation to attachment style. Thanks for this goldilocks, I appreciate you posting this. It is a little confusing as the most common source of violence is an ap male, while ap females/da male couples are the ones with the most ipv. I guess that ap females are contributing to the abuse in this pairing? It should also be said that no one should be looked at as a suspect for ipv simply because of their attachment style. |
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Nov 2, 2018 0:08:27 GMT
Women can also be violent in intimate relationships. Both violent men and violent women have high levels of anxiety. So both AP men and AP women contribute more than their fair share to the violence in relationships. Note that this does not mean most AP are violent. They may or may not be but that cannot be concluded from these studies.
|
|
|
|
Post by cris88 on Nov 2, 2018 1:42:03 GMT
Well just as AP, the DA behaviour is toxic. Not everyone is the same and some may have more healthy boundaries, but still the push & pull, the keeping you close and one day wanting to work on the relationship and the next being awful to you, the sending cryptic messages to tell you they want to be with you. It's tricky and saying NO should be more than enough. But they feed the illusion and the maddening experience. Yes, the AP should say no but it's not as easy when you are feeling close to that person. Is not always an agenda. Is not being able to read the message clearly because it's ambivalent. So no offense to the ones who are DA but there's no one to blame here. If someone doesn't want to be in a relationship there's a very clear way of stating that. So yes, there's a reason why a lot of that literature point towards the pain caused. It doesn't matter how secure you are. Well I'm FA, not DA first off, just in case that causes an issue. Secondly, this is all an unconscious process for the most part, it is a painful and confusing experience. And plenty of the instability is caused by the AP side as well. Thirdly, look, telling people they are irredeemably toxic and not giving them any answers (as the first half of the attached book does and most relationship sites on the web, baggage reclaim etc.) just tells people to settle into their dysfunction, why bother trying to change if it's not possible? I am FA too, so no big change. The dynamic is toxic, not the human being per se (I hate the whole AP vs DA here). The problem is Avoidants like Juniper (no offense btw and not an accusation) everytime someone asks about DA's the defensiveness is clear because is just their business and work to do, anyone who wants to work with their partner is going to try to understand what's going on. Not to control or fill a master plan but to be emphatic and understanding. Just like going to another country and merge by at least trying to understand their culture. So it's a bit difficult to have literature towards the DA condition and growth when it's such a closed off and personal experience. Also I've seen some good stuff Anne had posted about DAs Baggage Reclaim was created by a woman who had too many bad experiences with unavailable man so it's her journey really and it may be the same with many others of the kind. Frankly someone who's DA/AP/FA/Abcd. unaware and unwilling to change or do some work is going to create a toxic dynamic. I'm pointing the finger towards me too. |
|
|
|
Post by leavethelighton on Nov 2, 2018 2:02:51 GMT
I haven't read it lately, but maybe the book "Receiving Love: Transform Your Relationship by Letting Yourself Be Love" by Harville Hendrix and Helen Hunt would be useful here. The authors are optimistic about everyone's ability to grow and change, and I think their work would be useful to both APs and DAs.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 2:16:53 GMT
Well I'm FA, not DA first off, just in case that causes an issue. Secondly, this is all an unconscious process for the most part, it is a painful and confusing experience. And plenty of the instability is caused by the AP side as well. Thirdly, look, telling people they are irredeemably toxic and not giving them any answers (as the first half of the attached book does and most relationship sites on the web, baggage reclaim etc.) just tells people to settle into their dysfunction, why bother trying to change if it's not possible? I am FA too, so no big change. The dynamic is toxic, not the human being per se (I hate the whole AP vs DA here). The problem is Avoidants like Juniper (no offense btw and not an accusation) everytime someone asks about DA's the defensiveness is clear because is just their business and work to do, anyone who wants to work with their partner is going to try to understand what's going on. Not to control or fill a master plan but to be emphatic and understanding. Just like going to another country and merge by at least trying to understand their culture. So it's a bit difficult to have literature towards the DA condition and growth when it's such a closed off and personal experience. Also I've seen some good stuff Anne had posted about DAs Baggage Reclaim was created by a woman who had too many bad experiences with unavailable man so it's her journey really and it may be the same with many others of the kind. Frankly someone who's DA/AP/FA/Abcd. unaware and unwilling to change or do some work is going to create a toxic dynamic. I'm pointing the finger towards me too. i find that many AP's overwhelmingly focus on their partners issues to the neglect of their own. i see many AP's putting way more effort into interpreting and trying to "fix" or correct their partners issues, instead of their own. it may feel like simple "understanding " and "empathy" to some, but there are nuances in motivation and many AP's do come here focusing on how difficult their partner is and then awaken to the work they need to do internally. you may read my posts as defensive- the motivation is not to defend myself as i have nothing to defend here, but to offer a perspective from the DA standpoint. unhealthy or unaware or activated AP's definitely can tend to be intrusive and accusatory and that comes across in some posts, i respond. again; it's nothing personal. like today there was a thread asking about the DA experience and the OP would have liked to limit the content of my reply, but i said what i had to say. what she was asking was so personal and deep and complex, all to help her partner who isn't here looking for help. i can appreciate some support but let's face it- many partners want to fix a DA so they can get what they want from them and that's not their calling, believe me. We can't heal to please a partner- we have to heal because we need to stop hurting inside. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 2:29:52 GMT
also- many AP's seek to understand their DA partner so that they can further impinge THEMSELVES In an attempt to make it work with the avoidant.
that's toxic toward themselves- so i respond the way i do instead of the way they'd like because enabling is just not what i'm about, not why i'm here at all.
i'm here to support in the best way i can and in my discretion.
sometimes that means i will say something that seems harsh but there are many good authors who don't sugar coat any more than i would. Jeb Kinnison himself, the author of this site, is one.
If you take a look at the articles on AP , they read as brutal, to me. but insightful. and helpful if the advice is taken to heart.
I'm a kitty kat compared to Jeb, but i am not sure many posters read what he has to say about AP. they focus on.... the avoidant. oftentimes. because he wrote a book.
spoiler - that's not all he wrote lol!
|
|
|
|
Post by 8675309 on Nov 2, 2018 2:31:09 GMT
I am FA too, so no big change. The dynamic is toxic, not the human being per se (I hate the whole AP vs DA here). The problem is Avoidants like Juniper (no offense btw and not an accusation) everytime someone asks about DA's the defensiveness is clear because is just their business and work to do, anyone who wants to work with their partner is going to try to understand what's going on. Not to control or fill a master plan but to be emphatic and understanding. Just like going to another country and merge by at least trying to understand their culture. So it's a bit difficult to have literature towards the DA condition and growth when it's such a closed off and personal experience. Also I've seen some good stuff Anne had posted about DAs Baggage Reclaim was created by a woman who had too many bad experiences with unavailable man so it's her journey really and it may be the same with many others of the kind. Frankly someone who's DA/AP/FA/Abcd. unaware and unwilling to change or do some work is going to create a toxic dynamic. I'm pointing the finger towards me too. i find that many AP's overwhelmingly focus on their partners issues to the neglect of their own. i see many AP's putting way more effort into interpreting and trying to "fix" or correct their partners issues, instead of their own. it may feel like simple "understanding " and "empathy" to some, but there are nuances in motivation and many AP's do come here focusing on how difficult their partner is and then awaken to the work they need to do internally. you may read my posts as defensive- the motivation is not to defend myself as i have nothing to defend here, but to offer a perspective from the DA standpoint. unhealthy or unaware or activated AP's definitely can tend to be intrusive and accusatory and that comes across in some posts, i respond. again; it's nothing personal. like today there was a thread asking about the DA experience and the OP would have liked to limit the content of my reply, but i said what i had to say. what she was asking was so personal and deep and complex, all to help her partner who isn't here looking for help. i can appreciate some support but let's face it- many partners want to fix a DA so they can get what they want from them and that's not their calling, believe me. We can't heal to please a partner- we have to heal because we need to stop hurting inside. I see some of the same things Juniper so its not just you... I dont believe in enabling or sugar coating, sugar is bad for you.
Not like Ive not done my own dumb things and held on longer than I should have! haha.
|
|
|
|
Post by abeanjustabean on Nov 2, 2018 8:21:54 GMT
This thread has devolved so badly lol.
I don't see the point of replying to a thread if you're not going to stay on topic. Don't answer if what I'm asking is too much. Seriously. It's fine. Apparently I'm not supposed to moderate or something, but a quick scan of what this thread has turned into tells me that it's now just full of mudslinging, blaming, defensiveness and that doesn't help me at all personally.
|
|
|
|
Post by blueunif on Nov 2, 2018 12:09:58 GMT
juniper could you please provide a link or did you mean the book? Bc I'd really like to have a read. also- .... Jeb Kinnison himself, the author of this site, is one. If you take a look at the articles on AP , they read as brutal, to me. but insightful. and helpful if the advice is taken to heart. I'm a kitty kat compared to Jeb, but i am not sure many posters read what he has to say about AP. they focus on.... the avoidant. oftentimes. because he wrote a book. spoiler - that's not all he wrote lol!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 13:11:44 GMT
juniper could you please provide a link or did you mean the book? Bc I'd really like to have a read. also- .... Jeb Kinnison himself, the author of this site, is one. If you take a look at the articles on AP , they read as brutal, to me. but insightful. and helpful if the advice is taken to heart. I'm a kitty kat compared to Jeb, but i am not sure many posters read what he has to say about AP. they focus on.... the avoidant. oftentimes. because he wrote a book. spoiler - that's not all he wrote lol! Jeb has some helpful articles for all the attachment types on his main webpage. he hasn't written a book about moving from anxious to secure but does have a good recommendation, i can't remember the title. anyway, here's a link to an AP article: jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-anxious-preoccupied/ |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Nov 2, 2018 14:20:30 GMT
This thread has devolved so badly lol. I don't see the point of replying to a thread if you're not going to stay on topic. Don't answer if what I'm asking is too much. Seriously. It's fine. Apparently I'm not supposed to moderate or something, but a quick scan of what this thread has turned into tells me that it's now just full of mudslinging, blaming, defensiveness and that doesn't help me at all personally. It seems you have removed your original post...so I am not even sure what was asked.. Threads do take on a life of their own...sometimes a topic will open up a whole discussion that leads somewhere else....it happens all the time and it is not personal. You could always start another thread. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Nov 2, 2018 14:52:36 GMT
also- many AP's seek to understand their DA partner so that they can further impinge THEMSELVES In an attempt to make it work with the avoidant. that's toxic toward themselves- so i respond the way i do instead of the way they'd like because enabling is just not what i'm about, not why i'm here at all. i'm here to support in the best way i can and in my discretion. sometimes that means i will say something that seems harsh but there are many good authors who don't sugar coat any more than i would. Jeb Kinnison himself, the author of this site, is one. If you take a look at the articles on AP , they read as brutal, to me. but insightful. and helpful if the advice is taken to heart. I'm a kitty kat compared to Jeb, but i am not sure many posters read what he has to say about AP. they focus on.... the avoidant. oftentimes. because he wrote a book. spoiler - that's not all he wrote lol! As an AP....looking at the other person's behavior is instinctual/automatic...it is like breathing....it takes a heck of a lot of effort to be aware and change that perspective. I don't tend to speak or think negatively about my partner...I don't tend to speak or think about my needs...and that leads to resentment and ripples that come out "elsewhere"....typically back on myself. I think it is very interesting to read how someone with a different perspective sees things....yes, I am not as caring, thoughtful, empathetic as I would like to think I am...the underlying tape has always been that I must change to win a partner, keep a pertner, win back a partner and that tape is automatic and constantly running. I think what drive this is the sense of lack...he is it...no one is going to be like him so I must secure him/keep him, not lose him....it all becomes personal and my attatchment system won't let me have a break from story telling, ruminating, checking, worrying...it is not fun to be aware of this....and healing comes in small snail movements because there is a lot of internal resistance to moving away from something that feels like it works even though it does not. So it is easier to ask...what does he want? Rather then what do I really want? (because it feels like him). It is a heck easier to ask questions that will help me secure him versus becoming secure without him. Personally, I think it is beneficial for FAs and DAs to point APs back to self...however...it may not be received in the manner intended, just due to how our focus is the other and not so much self. |
|
|
|
Post by epicgum on Nov 2, 2018 15:48:39 GMT
This thread has devolved so badly lol. I don't see the point of replying to a thread if you're not going to stay on topic. Don't answer if what I'm asking is too much. Seriously. It's fine. Apparently I'm not supposed to moderate or something, but a quick scan of what this thread has turned into tells me that it's now just full of mudslinging, blaming, defensiveness and that doesn't help me at all personally. Yeah, that happens..lol...sorry!!! I think I tried to answer your question though, in that...uh...it feels bad to be judged...honestly, not one of my more original insights! Lol! Sending you love and compassion. |
|
