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Post by epicgum on Nov 2, 2018 15:53:41 GMT
Well I'm FA, not DA first off, just in case that causes an issue. Secondly, this is all an unconscious process for the most part, it is a painful and confusing experience. And plenty of the instability is caused by the AP side as well. Thirdly, look, telling people they are irredeemably toxic and not giving them any answers (as the first half of the attached book does and most relationship sites on the web, baggage reclaim etc.) just tells people to settle into their dysfunction, why bother trying to change if it's not possible? I am FA too, so no big change. The dynamic is toxic, not the human being per se (I hate the whole AP vs DA here). The problem is Avoidants like Juniper (no offense btw and not an accusation) everytime someone asks about DA's the defensiveness is clear because is just their business and work to do, anyone who wants to work with their partner is going to try to understand what's going on. Not to control or fill a master plan but to be emphatic and understanding. Just like going to another country and merge by at least trying to understand their culture. So it's a bit difficult to have literature towards the DA condition and growth when it's such a closed off and personal experience. Also I've seen some good stuff Anne had posted about DAs Baggage Reclaim was created by a woman who had too many bad experiences with unavailable man so it's her journey really and it may be the same with many others of the kind. Frankly someone who's DA/AP/FA/Abcd. unaware and unwilling to change or do some work is going to create a toxic dynamic. I'm pointing the finger towards me too. Are you unaware or unwilling to change? If not, then why are you pointing the finger at yourself? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 16:17:37 GMT
tnr9, i really respect your sincere efforts to heal and grow, because in spite of any struggle you have you have really good insight and empathy to offer anyone else who struggles. your contribution to the boards is tremendous. and, i think it's important to understand that the posting back to the self is not a punishment, or a criticism.... it's a key to emancipation. i understand that many come here frantically trying to find a key to unlock the mystery of their partner, and that they believe this will lead to their happiness. we can not provide that particular key.... but we have a key, and if they can't use it now, hopefully they will put it in their pocket because broad human experience suggests they will need it at some point. nothing is lost. the key will still be available when they settle on picking the right lock. it'll be ok, eventually. even if it isn't now.
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Nov 2, 2018 16:46:45 GMT
This thread has devolved so badly lol. I don't see the point of replying to a thread if you're not going to stay on topic. Don't answer if what I'm asking is too much. Seriously. It's fine. Apparently I'm not supposed to moderate or something, but a quick scan of what this thread has turned into tells me that it's now just full of mudslinging, blaming, defensiveness and that doesn't help me at all personally. I think as stated by someone else, as in any discussion topics tend to bleed into other discussions naturally. We may not have stayed directly to what you asked but you are free to clarify where we misunderstood or to direct things back to what you were asking. I hope you can chime back in and try to get more of what you were looking for! |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 2, 2018 20:13:26 GMT
also- many AP's seek to understand their DA partner so that they can further impinge THEMSELVES In an attempt to make it work with the avoidant. that's toxic toward themselves- so i respond the way i do instead of the way they'd like because enabling is just not what i'm about, not why i'm here at all. i'm here to support in the best way i can and in my discretion. sometimes that means i will say something that seems harsh but there are many good authors who don't sugar coat any more than i would. Jeb Kinnison himself, the author of this site, is one. If you take a look at the articles on AP , they read as brutal, to me. but insightful. and helpful if the advice is taken to heart. I'm a kitty kat compared to Jeb, but i am not sure many posters read what he has to say about AP. they focus on.... the avoidant. oftentimes. because he wrote a book. spoiler - that's not all he wrote lol! I look at both sides of the coin and after my break my focus was all about me and what I did to screw things up so badly. I completely blamed myself initially. That’s why I went into therapy- I was dead determined to figure out what possibly could’ve went wrong when two people profess to love each other so much. An AP tends to self blame, if anything. I searched and searched for answers about myself and in doing so, stumbled upon attachment- which I had forgotten about since my college psych days. In rediscovering the literature, I clearly saw my ex and me in the anxious/avoidant. I think many AP’s come here or any other resource looking for answers about their partner bc the avoidant partner remains a mystery with so little to say. They usually don’t open up to conversations and dialogue and generally leave partners confused and seeking their own answers. In an attempt to understand him and our break down- I wanted to know how he felt and the reasons we do the things we do. I just had to make sense of something that completely confused and derailed me. I’d like to be free of the past trauma and I’d also like to see my ex escape his prison- if not for us, then for his own well-being. It’s not my job to help anyone but I do care about him and want him to be happy. I can’t turn off my caring. I don’t want to.... where this all leads, I have no idea. I’m standing on my own though and finding security within for the first time in my life, so that’s something. And, I still have no desire to turn my back on him or cut him out of my life. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 21:15:59 GMT
also- many AP's seek to understand their DA partner so that they can further impinge THEMSELVES In an attempt to make it work with the avoidant. that's toxic toward themselves- so i respond the way i do instead of the way they'd like because enabling is just not what i'm about, not why i'm here at all. i'm here to support in the best way i can and in my discretion. sometimes that means i will say something that seems harsh but there are many good authors who don't sugar coat any more than i would. Jeb Kinnison himself, the author of this site, is one. If you take a look at the articles on AP , they read as brutal, to me. but insightful. and helpful if the advice is taken to heart. I'm a kitty kat compared to Jeb, but i am not sure many posters read what he has to say about AP. they focus on.... the avoidant. oftentimes. because he wrote a book. spoiler - that's not all he wrote lol! I look at both sides of the coin and after my break my focus was all about me and what I did to screw things up so badly. I completely blamed myself initially. That’s why I went into therapy- I was dead determined to figure out what possibly could’ve went wrong when two people profess to love each other so much. An AP tends to self blame, if anything. I searched and searched for answers about myself and in doing so, stumbled upon attachment- which I had forgotten about since my college psych days. In rediscovering the literature, I clearly saw my ex and me in the anxious/avoidant. I think many AP’s come here or any other resource looking for answers about their partner bc the avoidant partner remains a mystery with so little to say. They usually don’t open up to conversations and dialogue and generally leave partners confused and seeking their own answers. In an attempt to understand him and our break down- I wanted to know how he felt and the reasons we do the things we do. I just had to make sense of something that completely confused and derailed me. I’d like to be free of the past trauma and I’d also like to see my ex escape his prison- if not for us, then for his own well-being. It’s not my job to help anyone but I do care about him and want him to be happy. I can’t turn off my caring. I don’t want to.... where this all leads, I have no idea. I’m standing on my own though and finding security within for the first time in my life, so that’s something. And, I still have no desire to turn my back on him or cut him out of my life. i think you're doing great, and i also don't think there is any reason to cut a person out of our lives. My former partner was just beginning his awareness when i made the difficult decision to let the relationship go, as i had come to a point of really being ready to engage in a deeper way consistently in order to be my happiest and healthiest. It's possible to outgrow a relationship without burning bridges, but i think that is different for each situation and the individuals involved. The point of working on one's own issues is to actually rectify the self blame. i have to remind myself that when an AP hears "work on your own issues, work toward your own healing ", if still unhealthy they tend to interpret that as "take more blame." however, that isn't what working on issues or healing involves. If someone interprets self responsibilty with self flagellation, that's just an issue that needs to be healed. Self help literature would have AP's developing self esteem, learning trust and emotional self regulation, etc. but when i hear resistance from AP's it seems to be along the lines of "I already blame myself for the failure of the relationship." That's not the point. That's the problem. That's the issue. Taking responsibility for and focusing one one's own issues does not mean acting out with self blame. It means learning to love and value the self; have boundaries to protect one's own emotional health, etc. The thing about trying to understand an avoidant ex, or partner, is that it won't help you do all that. I get the interest. But i also see many many AP's ruminate ad infinitim about all of that and totally derail their own healing. It's a trap perhaps best avoided if possible. i've not seen it work one single time, in the months i have been participating here, for an AP to come here to figure out their ex and end up reconciled and healthy. maybe it's happening and we don't know about it. i kind of doubt it. but i can't be certain of course. anyway, it's not against the law to want to understand a partner. but really- throw in anxiety and rumination and i see it spin out of control down the wrong track a lot. |
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Post by goldilocks on Nov 2, 2018 21:31:03 GMT
The point of working on one's own issues is to actually rectify the self blame. i have to remind myself that when an AP hears "work on your own issues, work toward your own healing ", if still unhealthy they tend to interpret that as "take more blame."
however, that isn't what working on issues or healing involves. If someone interprets self responsibilty with self flagellation, that's just an issue that needs to be healed. Self help literature would have AP's developing self esteem, learning trust and emotional self regulation, etc. but when i hear resistance from AP's it seems to be along the lines of "I already blame myself for the failure of the relationship." That's not the point. That's the problem. That's the issue. Taking responsibility for and focusing one one's own issues does not mean acting out with self blame. It means learning to love and value the self; have boundaries to protect one's own emotional health, etc. This x10000000!!! Molding oneself into the person that would have kept the ex DA around is not self help. Self help is healing the wounds, respecting your own boundaries to avoid being rewounded and wanting to be happy more than wanting to be with the ex. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 21:41:20 GMT
it also means becoming emotionally available to the SELF.
really emotionally supportive, compassionate, wise, available.... to the seif.
respecting the self.
valuing the self.
knowing what to do, what not to do, to and for the self.
knowing how to take appropriate care of emotional needs, of the self.
only then can one begin to understand the emotional needs of another and care for those needs in a healthy, truly supportive and interdependent way.
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Nov 2, 2018 22:21:20 GMT
it also means becoming emotionally available to the SELF. really emotionally supportive, compassionate, wise, available.... to the seif. respecting the self. valuing the self. knowing what to do, what not to do, to and for the self. knowing how to take appropriate care of emotional needs, of the self. only then can one begin to understand the emotional needs of another and care for those needs in a healthy, truly supportive and interdependent way. I hear all of this- I do. And I don’t think it’s wrong. It’s easy to see all the damage done by the anxious ones to themselves and to others- they are “out of control”. They are acting out. They are searching for a way to keep things going. They come to this forum with bleeding hearts. In my experience, a DA is just gone. There isn’t even anything to talk about because, mine at least, simply walked away. Every time. It’s not that they aren’t hurt. It’s not that they don’t have wants and needs. Sometimes I think that don’t say anything just so that there isn’t anything to talk about. They just shut down and walk away. Or so it seems although I don’t claim to know that for myself. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 23:15:28 GMT
it also means becoming emotionally available to the SELF. really emotionally supportive, compassionate, wise, available.... to the seif. respecting the self. valuing the self. knowing what to do, what not to do, to and for the self. knowing how to take appropriate care of emotional needs, of the self. only then can one begin to understand the emotional needs of another and care for those needs in a healthy, truly supportive and interdependent way. I hear all of this- I do. And I don’t think it’s wrong. It’s easy to see all the damage done by the anxious ones to themselves and to others- they are “out of control”. They are acting out. They are searching for a way to keep things going. They come to this forum with bleeding hearts. In my experience, a DA is just gone. There isn’t even anything to talk about because, mine at least, simply walked away. Every time. It’s not that they aren’t hurt. It’s not that they don’t have wants and needs. Sometimes I think that don’t say anything just so that there isn’t anything to talk about. They just shut down and walk away. Or so it seems although I don’t claim to know that for myself. Yes, the DA just goes away. it's a very different reaction to the injuries sustained. Because we don't prioritize a romantic relationship, we aren't really motivated to do whatever it takes to sustain one, particularly one as uncomfortable and unhappy as the AP/DA routine. Being a dismissive is a totally different experience. There are so few DA who come to the forum, and those of us here came to learn about ourselves. Which makes sense- we aren't relationship centric. We are independent by conditioning, and live in a solitary landscape. So the forum is a different experience for all the different styles. my work here has been to become emotionally available- to myself first, so i could even know how to show up for my relationship. what a process it's all been. i can hardly recognize the avoidant i was when i got here. a lot has changed. but i came here after reading about dismissive attachment on the web and going 😱😐🤕 |
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Nov 2, 2018 23:33:35 GMT
I hear all of this- I do. And I don’t think it’s wrong. It’s easy to see all the damage done by the anxious ones to themselves and to others- they are “out of control”. They are acting out. They are searching for a way to keep things going. They come to this forum with bleeding hearts. In my experience, a DA is just gone. There isn’t even anything to talk about because, mine at least, simply walked away. Every time. It’s not that they aren’t hurt. It’s not that they don’t have wants and needs. Sometimes I think that don’t say anything just so that there isn’t anything to talk about. They just shut down and walk away. Or so it seems although I don’t claim to know that for myself. Yes, the DA just goes away. it's a very different reaction to the injuries sustained. Because we don't prioritize a romantic relationship, we aren't really motivated to do whatever it takes to sustain one, particularly one as uncomfortable and unhappy as the AP/DA routine. Being a dismissive is a totally different experience. There are so few DA who come to the forum, and those of us here came to learn about ourselves. Which makes sense- we aren't relationship centric. We are independent by conditioning, and live in a solitary landscape. So the forum is a different experience for all the different styles. my work here has been to become emotionally available- to myself first, so i could even know how to show up for my relationship. what a process it's all been. i can hardly recognize the avoidant i was when i got here. a lot has changed. but i came here after reading about dismissive attachment on the web and going 😱😐🤕 I appreciate this perspective because I did wonder- what makes a DA even come here. I also appreciate the talk of becoming emotionally available to yourself as I am trying hard to do that. I am struggling a lot to do it in the context of a marriage and children but the end game is worth it. I came here after my one of the very few things my ex-DA said was”I have trouble attaching” which drive me to the net to figure out exactly what that meant about him but found myself instead- I couldn’t tear myself way!! 😱 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 23:39:21 GMT
Yes, the DA just goes away. it's a very different reaction to the injuries sustained. Because we don't prioritize a romantic relationship, we aren't really motivated to do whatever it takes to sustain one, particularly one as uncomfortable and unhappy as the AP/DA routine. Being a dismissive is a totally different experience. There are so few DA who come to the forum, and those of us here came to learn about ourselves. Which makes sense- we aren't relationship centric. We are independent by conditioning, and live in a solitary landscape. So the forum is a different experience for all the different styles. my work here has been to become emotionally available- to myself first, so i could even know how to show up for my relationship. what a process it's all been. i can hardly recognize the avoidant i was when i got here. a lot has changed. but i came here after reading about dismissive attachment on the web and going 😱😐🤕 I appreciate this perspective because I did wonder- what makes a DA even come here. I also appreciate the talk of becoming emotionally available to yourself as I am trying hard to do that. I am struggling a lot to do it in the context of a marriage and children but the end game is worth it. I came here after my one of the very few things my ex-DA said was”I have trouble attaching” which drive me to the net to figure out exactly what that meant about him but found myself instead- I couldn’t tear myself way!! 😱 yeah, i was so cut off from myself and my feelings, i just survived relationships which were very dangerous to me. dismissive traits made it possible for me to stoically endure things that nearly killed me. so, i wanted to find out what was going wrong, how come i couldn't figure out how to do this? the risks were too great, the price too high, and i was very very sad and confused. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 3, 2018 1:20:35 GMT
it also means becoming emotionally available to the SELF. really emotionally supportive, compassionate, wise, available.... to the seif. respecting the self. valuing the self. knowing what to do, what not to do, to and for the self. knowing how to take appropriate care of emotional needs, of the self. only then can one begin to understand the emotional needs of another and care for those needs in a healthy, truly supportive and interdependent way. Hey, Juni  yes, I hear what you and Goldilocks are both saying...going through this process to where I am now, I’d say the crux of my issue is self-love. There are other factors of course but when I take it down to the very core of healing the AP, it’s really about loving myself. As I work towards that, everything else aligns. I’ve seen that the more love, acceptance and security I foster in myself, the more easily it flows and pours out to everyone around me. When I’m kinder to myself I’m able to be kinder to everyone around me. Sounds elementary, but I never experienced love and acceptance from my family like that before and I never internalized love and acceptance for myself. I also never knew what a constant state of anxiety I was living in- anxiety was my norm and I didn’t even know how it felt to not live in at least a low level of being on edge at all times. I’m trying to be aware of that now and diminish it. I can see why that AP protest behavior would spill so easily from me...the blame, hurt and criticism was right at my surface just ready to spill out. Self care, feeling worthy and expressing my needs....they all support that self-love. Never, ever have I lived like this before. I’m loving the change of my inner voice. My critical voice always said just do it, and would disregard how I felt, “no pain, no gain” mentality. I’m enjoying this journey because it feels so much better to be me. Thanks for all your helpful insight on this board- you help me see a DA perspective but more than that, you help me to see myself 💐 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 1:47:17 GMT
it also means becoming emotionally available to the SELF. really emotionally supportive, compassionate, wise, available.... to the seif. respecting the self. valuing the self. knowing what to do, what not to do, to and for the self. knowing how to take appropriate care of emotional needs, of the self. only then can one begin to understand the emotional needs of another and care for those needs in a healthy, truly supportive and interdependent way. Hey, Juni yes, I hear what you and Goldilocks are both saying...going through this process to where I am now, I’d say the crux of my issue is self-love. There are other factors of course but when I take it down to the very core of healing the AP, it’s really about loving myself. As I work towards that, everything else aligns. I’ve seen that the more love, acceptance and security I foster in myself, the more easily it flows and pours out to everyone around me. When I’m kinder to myself I’m able to be kinder to everyone around me. Sounds elementary, but I never experienced love and acceptance from my family like that before and I never internalized love and acceptance for myself. I also never knew what a constant state of anxiety I was living in- anxiety was my norm and I didn’t even know how it felt to not live in at least a low level of being on edge at all times. I’m trying to be aware of that now and diminish it. I can see why that AP protest behavior would spill so easily from me...the blame, hurt and criticism was right at my surface just ready to spill out. Self care, feeling worthy and expressing my needs....they all support that self-love. Never, ever have I lived like this before. I’m loving the change of my inner voice. My critical voice always said just do it, and would disregard how I felt, “no pain, no gain” mentality. I’m enjoying this journey because it feels so much better to be me. Thanks for all your helpful insight on this board- you help me see a DA perspective but more than that, you help me to see myself 💐 wow, this is so beautiful. i didn't experience love in my family of origin either, but i went the dismissive way. it's the same core issue- we didn't feel safe, we didn't feel loved, cherished, protected, important. over the years i've done a lot to heal that up, but the last couple of learning about and understanding dismissive attachment has been so powerful. i can say, that i love myself and feel a great affection for myself and others. i feel safe, loved, and cherished now. and the relationship i have found is reflecting those things back to me, it's a new experience and i want to encourage you to keep going and enjoy this journey as much as you can, it's really precious even if it's difficult at times. |
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 3, 2018 1:55:42 GMT
Hey, Juni yes, I hear what you and Goldilocks are both saying...going through this process to where I am now, I’d say the crux of my issue is self-love. There are other factors of course but when I take it down to the very core of healing the AP, it’s really about loving myself. As I work towards that, everything else aligns. I’ve seen that the more love, acceptance and security I foster in myself, the more easily it flows and pours out to everyone around me. When I’m kinder to myself I’m able to be kinder to everyone around me. Sounds elementary, but I never experienced love and acceptance from my family like that before and I never internalized love and acceptance for myself. I also never knew what a constant state of anxiety I was living in- anxiety was my norm and I didn’t even know how it felt to not live in at least a low level of being on edge at all times. I’m trying to be aware of that now and diminish it. I can see why that AP protest behavior would spill so easily from me...the blame, hurt and criticism was right at my surface just ready to spill out. Self care, feeling worthy and expressing my needs....they all support that self-love. Never, ever have I lived like this before. I’m loving the change of my inner voice. My critical voice always said just do it, and would disregard how I felt, “no pain, no gain” mentality. I’m enjoying this journey because it feels so much better to be me. Thanks for all your helpful insight on this board- you help me see a DA perspective but more than that, you help me to see myself 💐 wow, this is so beautiful. i didn't experience love in my family of origin either, but i went the dismissive way. it's the same core issue- we didn't feel safe, we didn't feel loved, cherished, protected, important. over the years i've done a lot to heal that up, but the last couple of learning about and understanding dismissive attachment has been so powerful. i can say, that i love myself and feel a great affection for myself and others. i feel safe, loved, and cherished now. and the relationship i have found is reflecting those things back to me, it's a new experience and i want to encourage you to keep going and enjoy this journey as much as you can, it's really precious even if it's difficult at times. Yes, I guess in my case never hearing “I love you” growing up translated into me not loving myself. On to better days! Thank you 💗 you inspire me!! |
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Nov 3, 2018 13:04:03 GMT
wow, this is so beautiful. i didn't experience love in my family of origin either, but i went the dismissive way. it's the same core issue- we didn't feel safe, we didn't feel loved, cherished, protected, important. over the years i've done a lot to heal that up, but the last couple of learning about and understanding dismissive attachment has been so powerful. i can say, that i love myself and feel a great affection for myself and others. i feel safe, loved, and cherished now. and the relationship i have found is reflecting those things back to me, it's a new experience and i want to encourage you to keep going and enjoy this journey as much as you can, it's really precious even if it's difficult at times. Yes, I guess in my case never hearing “I love you” growing up translated into me not loving myself. On to better days! Thank you 💗 you inspire me!! All. Of. This!!!! I am also finding at the core I need to find love and trust in myself. Finding a little strength and courage to believe im enough just as I am. I like to think here- avoidants can help the anxious where they shine, help see where the distortions are and vice versa. It’s so helpful. |
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yes, I hear what you and Goldilocks are both saying...going through this process to where I am now, I’d say the crux of my issue is self-love. There are other factors of course but when I take it down to the very core of healing the AP, it’s really about loving myself. As I work towards that, everything else aligns. I’ve seen that the more love, acceptance and security I foster in myself, the more easily it flows and pours out to everyone around me. When I’m kinder to myself I’m able to be kinder to everyone around me. Sounds elementary, but I never experienced love and acceptance from my family like that before and I never internalized love and acceptance for myself. I also never knew what a constant state of anxiety I was living in- anxiety was my norm and I didn’t even know how it felt to not live in at least a low level of being on edge at all times. I’m trying to be aware of that now and diminish it.