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Post by ocarina on Nov 26, 2018 20:04:13 GMT
I am struggling at the moment to distinguish between old hurts being reactivated and old fears coming up - vs real reasons to be wary.
As a brief example - last night my partner (ish - not physically or officially but he's come back after a long absence declaring undying love - together for 6 years previously) came over for dinner at my house - with a couple of my other friends. Firstly no offer of help from him, whilst the others all helped lay the table etc etc - he drunk wine and chatted - no help clearing up and then, despite a big effort on my part, no thank you text/ message or anything whilst every other guest was in touch the next day.
This is a familiar kind of taking for granted dynamic - or at least this is how it feels - familiar from our relationship last time round. I didn't invite him or anyone else in order to be rewarded by praise or thanks - but surely this is common politeness especially towards the person you claim to love more than anyone in the world?! He's busy with work - but one text? Maybe we just have different values on this, whatever I could feel it making my hackles go up ever so slightly.
As outsiders looking in on this am I being over sensitive?
There are plenty of these small things springing up all over the place which are causing me to keep the handbrake very much on in terms of our friendship/ relationship. I think there's a real difference between being in love and being able to be in a relationship and this kind of thing, which constantly drips away at trust and makes me do my dismissive thing, is just not helpful.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 26, 2018 20:20:59 GMT
You have other reasons you may have outgrown this relationship, but you're right to stop yourself to ask if you're nitpicking/deactivating or these are fixable. Did you communicate with him that you'd like him to do any of those things? Did you ask for his help? Sometimes people just don't think about those social cues, maybe even weren't raised to have "good" manners, and just aren't aware. Just because someone doesn't think to do it naturally on their own doesn't mean they mind being asked if you communicate that you'd like some help.
If you ask for help and he's resentful or reluctant or thinks you're nagging, then you've got a problem.
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Post by ocarina on Nov 26, 2018 20:41:57 GMT
You have other reasons you may have outgrown this relationship, but you're right to stop yourself to ask if you're nitpicking/deactivating or these are fixable. Did you communicate with him that you'd like him to do any of those things? Did you ask for his help? Sometimes people just don't think about those social cues, maybe even weren't raised to have "good" manners, and just aren't aware. Just because someone doesn't think to do it naturally on their own doesn't mean they mind being asked if you communicate that you'd like some help. If you ask for help and he's resentful or reluctant or thinks you're nagging, then you've got a problem. Each time we reconnect, it all starts perfectly and slowly over time the same pattern replays, the lack of presence and seeming lack of care - in that he stops contacting between dates, stops asking how I am, gets kind of lost in himself.
Nothing I can do I know - and I do think I have many reasons to be reticent here - I have asked and whilst there's no resistance as such, old habits just seem to creep back in. Such a difference between wanting a relationship and actually being capable of one.
The drinking is also of concern - again early on he was really not drinking - but I feel it creeping up again - and the kind of lack of consistent emotional availability.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 26, 2018 21:55:03 GMT
What you can keep doing is communicating your needs and see if he keeps stepping up for what's important to you, even if he's prone to regressing back to his norm a little when left to his own devices. As long as he then responds appropriately to your reminders of your needs. There is some amount of needing to accept what his norm is, though, and deciding if you're okay with that.
The drinking part is trickier. If he has a problem he's still not ready to address, he's going to be defensive and unwilling to have a real, authentic, vulnerable conversation about it, where words and actions align even after the conversation. I have a close friend who happened to hit rock bottom when she was visiting me for an extended period (I had no idea she was an alcoholic prior to that because I hadn't seen her in person in a while), and that put her in a position that she was ready to seriously listen to me and consider what I had to say. Prior to that, I doubt I'd have been able to have much impact, and it's something that's certainly gotten a lot better but she still struggles with. We talk about it openly, though, and sometimes she still argues with me when she's struggling with it actively but eventually comes back around. It's been important for me to stay honest and direct with her about it and enforce boundaries when she's backsliding.
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Post by goldilocks on Nov 26, 2018 22:42:38 GMT
I am struggling at the moment to distinguish between old hurts being reactivated and old fears coming up - vs real reasons to be wary.
As a brief example - last night my partner (ish - not physically or officially but he's come back after a long absence declaring undying love - together for 6 years previously) came over for dinner at my house - with a couple of my other friends. Firstly no offer of help from him, whilst the others all helped lay the table etc etc - he drunk wine and chatted - no help clearing up and then, despite a big effort on my part, no thank you text/ message or anything whilst every other guest was in touch the next day.
Sounds like rude behaviour. Whether is is a red flag is ultimately up to you. If this is essential to you, it is your standard. Your standards can be as high as you like as long as you have no expectations. [/p] This is a familiar kind of taking for granted dynamic - or at least this is how it feels - familiar from our relationship last time round. I didn't invite him or anyone else in order to be rewarded by praise or thanks - but surely this is common politeness especially towards the person you claim to love more than anyone in the world?! He's busy with work - but one text? Maybe we just have different values on this, whatever I could feel it making my hackles go up ever so slightly.
As outsiders looking in on this am I being over sensitive?
There are plenty of these small things springing up all over the place which are causing me to keep the handbrake very much on in terms of our friendship/ relationship. I think there's a real difference between being in love and being able to be in a relationship and this kind of thing, which constantly drips away at trust and makes me do my dismissive thing, is just not helpful. [/quote] You are feeling what you are feeling, and the feelings need to be felt and expressed, but there are more expressions than hitting the break. If his manners are on and off, you could try to lean into what you are feeling when he has good manners and reflect that back "I felt supported when you offered to do the washing up". "I enjoyed receiving your thank you note :-)" "I love it when a man has good manners". Some people respond more strongly to positive emotions. Yet ultimately, if you value manners much more than he does, he may lack sufficient motivation to reach consistency in manners at the level you require. If this is the case, do you accept him as is or let him go?
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Post by leavethelighton on Nov 28, 2018 0:30:36 GMT
The text thing seems unreasonable to expect from everyone-- people have different texting habits. Frankly I'm surprised all the other dinner guests texted (though what generation are you? Maybe this is generational? I'm end-of-Gen-X and I never text people after a dinner party). But the not even offering to lift a finger the whole meal before and after by someone who claims to love you? Not a good sign, unless he was really ill or something. Is he always like that? If so, do you want to spent the rest of your life picking up after another adult? Do you want to have to ask him for every chore and his never just doing it on his own? Personally I'd rather be single than have to ask someone every time in order for them to do anything. I had that kind of evening though so I'm totally projecting
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Post by ocarina on Nov 28, 2018 7:42:24 GMT
Thanks all of you for your replies - sorry not been back, work has been somewhat demanding!
So - we are all late 30s or mid 40s and I don't agree re the generational thing - the vast majority of my friends would say something - just a few words even, of gratitude after the event. It's polite and it's also underlain by a sense of gratitude which is important to me - I savour life because I feel grateful for others engagement and generosity. I cultivate thankfulness intentionally because - well it seems to help with a sense of interconnectedness which as an avoidant I tend not to have naturally. In a relationship gratitude and the sharing of it is important to me - full stop. Not that he's right or wrong in not expressing it, but for me I recognise it's important and Goldilocks - you're right I need to feel what I feel here.
Very often I feel invisible to him - this is an ongoing theme and one of the reasons I have hesitated so much before jumping back into the relationship. Loving presence to me means a degree of mutual support and compassionate engagement - not the odd dinner with a great deal of wine drinking and a last minute walk now and then, which it seems is what he's offering. Again no right and wrong here but having made excuses for his behaviour for so long in our past I won't do it now, it just doesn't suit me - the distance and lack of communication and in the end will likely lead to the same emotional harm as it has in the past.
We went out last week - and when I arrived he was on the phone and I sat in silence for ten minutes while he finished the call - no apology no recognition that there was another human presence. I feel very strongly that this has always been all about him - if it makes him feel good then great - if not then NADA. I have asked ad infinitim for contact just briefly in between seeing each other - three days down the line, yet again nothing and whilst I don't have an expectation here - I can't fail to notice that what I have asked for, what's important to me, is just not a priority to him.
His daughter has had some serious mental health issues - such that if it were my child I would be beside myself with concern - his words were something along the line of - oh no, I could see it coming and it's a pain because this is how it's going to be from now on. As though it were some kind of inconvenience. When his father was dying, the biggest concern was that the long drive to visit him was a drag.
With apologies for kind of airing this dirty laundry here and of course there is much good in him - but I spent so so long ignoring all these things in the past, things I noticed and accepted because I think acceptance is important in relationships. I think it is good for me to recognise that these qualities are not what I want in a partner.
I also feel semi proud to have trusted my gut early on here and not jumped back in - as another poster said recently, I would only consider going back to his relationship if my ex partner was in therapy and truly working on the underlying issues - this man said he couldn't see why he needed it - and as far as I can see, nothing has changed here and my instinct was right.
The good news is that life very much goes on here - I haven't pretzelled myself for him this time round and have just organised a wonderful New Year for myself with a three day yoga retreat - delicious healthy food, new friendships and an open hearted and optimistic start to the New Year.
Thanks again Goldilocks, Leavethelighton and Alexandra for you support - on a practical note - how do I tag people on here?
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Post by goldilocks on Nov 28, 2018 7:57:51 GMT
You can use the @ symbol to tag people. I like how you have sorted out your thoughts and feelings. The fact that your whole circle has the manners you prefer tells me this standard is not unreasonable where you are at. There is a keen distinction between standards and expectations. lifegoalsmag.com/expectations-standards-relationship/
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Post by anne12 on Nov 28, 2018 8:12:49 GMT
Correct me, if I´m wrong - but does he has asperger?
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Post by ocarina on Nov 28, 2018 8:26:51 GMT
Correct me, if I´m wrong - but does he has asperger? Well remembered anne12 - he has no official diagnosis but I and he suspect this - in which case of course it's unreasonable to have expectations of him that he cannot meet. It's likely that either I have similar traits or I live in a world (with two ASD children) where I understand this so intimately that we have been able to create some kind of shared togetherness regardless.
It also makes relating so difficult and I do believe the only hope - rather than twisting myself into all kinds of contortions and letting go of all my values in order to fit with him, is to seek therapy - not to cure ASD but, for the relationship, to work as a couple in order to improve things for both. With one party resolutely avoiding this, I think we've reached the end of the road relationship wise.
I think I have reached the bottom line here and maybe that's a good thing after hanging on in for so long - and it's unfair on both of us to have my expectations of relatedness leading to resentment and unhappiness.
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Post by ocarina on Nov 28, 2018 8:32:57 GMT
You can use the @ symbol to tag people. I like how you have sorted out your thoughts and feelings. The fact that your whole circle has the manners you prefer tells me this standard is not unreasonable where you are at. There is a keen distinction between standards and expectations. lifegoalsmag.com/expectations-standards-relationship/goldilocks now I know!
Interesting article - my standards - or maybe I usually think of them as values, are pretty strong nowadays and whilst in the past I have been very good at being accommodating, that comes with a price in terms of loss of self. It creeps up over time and is sadly something I am very familiar with and not a path I want to walk again.
It is also unfair to layer expectation on someone who can't, won't meet them - and I have communicated my need to communication etc over and over again - once or twice is fine, more than that becomes a nag. I don't have the time or energy to be in a relationship with someone who requires this kind of prompting.
Ever the optimist however, I think we have a good working friendship - and remove the romance/ intimacy then it's good to have this remaining. Expectations in friendship are different for me than in an intimate relationship and removing the label takes the pressure off both of us. A little letting go of hope needs to happen in my own heart, but I think I am not far off from that.
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Post by ocarina on Nov 28, 2018 9:28:43 GMT
goldilocks the standards vs expectations distinction is something I have never thought about before and it really hits the nail on the head. Expectations leave me feeling like a powerless fish floating in a stormy sea requiring someone to do something to make me feel better - standards however are a blueprint for the life that I live - and a kind of stage for setting boundaries, it's a shift of mindset that is really empowering. www.huffpost.com/entry/personal-growth_b_1475190This quote from the above article resonated with me: "Think about it this way: Where expectations give responsibility to something else, standards empower you to take ownership of what's happening in your life. We have a great deal of influence on our own lives based solely on the fact that we live them. Want better friends? Embody the qualities you wish to attract. Desire more satisfaction from work? Use your strengths creatively to make it more enjoyable. Seek a inspiring lifestyle? Do the things you love to do often and without fail. Identify with your own personal understanding of the golden rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") and then enthusiastically live the heck out of it."
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Post by goldilocks on Nov 28, 2018 11:00:00 GMT
goldilocks now I know!
Interesting article - my standards - or maybe I usually think of them as values, are pretty strong nowadays and whilst in the past I have been very good at being accommodating, that comes with a price in terms of loss of self. It creeps up over time and is sadly something I am very familiar with and not a path I want to walk again.
It is also unfair to layer expectation on someone who can't, won't meet them - and I have communicated my need to communication etc over and over again - once or twice is fine, more than that becomes a nag. I don't have the time or energy to be in a relationship with someone who requires this kind of prompting.
Ever the optimist however, I think we have a good working friendship - and remove the romance/ intimacy then it's good to have this remaining. Expectations in friendship are different for me than in an intimate relationship and removing the label takes the pressure off both of us. A little letting go of hope needs to happen in my own heart, but I think I am not far off from that.
That's just right! We can compromise, but if we compromise our integrity we can lose our center. If we cannot stay in integrity while being close to another being his authentic self, then a less close relationship is the kindest answer. It can be great to have loose connections with very different people, but in a close relationship it can lead to irreconciliable differences.
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Post by goldilocks on Nov 28, 2018 11:10:29 GMT
goldilocks the standards vs expectations distinction is something I have never thought about before and it really hits the nail on the head. Expectations leave me feeling like a powerless fish floating in a stormy sea requiring someone to do something to make me feel better - standards however are a blueprint for the life that I live - and a kind of stage for setting boundaries, it's a shift of mindset that is really empowering. www.huffpost.com/entry/personal-growth_b_1475190This quote from the above article resonated with me: "Think about it this way: Where expectations give responsibility to something else, standards empower you to take ownership of what's happening in your life. We have a great deal of influence on our own lives based solely on the fact that we live them. Want better friends? Embody the qualities you wish to attract. Desire more satisfaction from work? Use your strengths creatively to make it more enjoyable. Seek a inspiring lifestyle? Do the things you love to do often and without fail. Identify with your own personal understanding of the golden rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") and then enthusiastically live the heck out of it." I see standards as the type of boat you sail in. What do you require to feel safe on the sea of life? A sturdy ship with a simple but comfortable hut? A tiny sport catamaran? Compromising your integrity would be letting someone knock you from your boat onto a rickety raft.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 28, 2018 11:33:17 GMT
Hey ocarina ...I do relate to the inability to relate to the other person. When B and I were dating, he would not clean up the table after eating snacks, he would pre wash dishes but not put them in the dishwasher, he would adjust my thermostat without asking etc. I was raised by a mom who expected thank yous, cleaning up plates, requests for moving or changing things in someone else's house...good proper manners...and yes...I say thank you at the end of all social events I am invited to and offer assistance.....because that is how I was raised. B has ADD...so I do believe that played a role in why he would forget to ask, offer, clean up etc...but I too felt like everything was based on his mood....if he was in a good space, fantastic...he would be very attentive...but if he was in some funk...he felt a million miles away. I grew to resent technology for the distraction it offered him from having to be present with me. I don't have an answer...I do think therapy is a good direction.
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