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Post by faithopelove on Mar 14, 2019 0:25:49 GMT
@nullified - I didn’t say he was negatively affecting her studies. She did. I was quoting her earlier posts. This is the most graphic example of push/pull I’ve ever heard about. My advice is to stay away- and as I wrote above...I agreed w your post to OP. I think you misunderstood bc I didn’t use quotation marks. Oh, I gotcha. Yes, there is a lot of stuff in the first original post and it got confusing and I can't easily go back and see it, on my phone. Yes, it's extreme! Situations like this can cross into abuse but I see the physicality as highly inappropriate, and as a DA I would retreat permanently from this kind of aggressive intensity. @nullified - Yeah, I can see how it would be confusing if you couldn’t reread the posts. There was a lot to see...
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Post by sissyk on Mar 14, 2019 0:46:03 GMT
Oh wow, he gets the blame for her doing poorly at school?In all actuality, AP insecures have been shown to do poorly at work and school due to their preoccupation with the relationship and the partner. She is responsible for her emotions, the ability or inability to regulate them and perform her responsibilities, and manage her behavior to avoid violating boundaries of personal touch and space. I'm not saying this man was appropriate relationship material but seriously, this situation reads as incredibly violatile and emotionally labile on OP's end. Isn't it more realistic to say that anxious preoccupation has taken its toll here? I mean. breakups happen. Wrestling matches over personal property, sobbing scenes in the hallway, and visits from police who found enough cause to actually arrest, aren't a part of every breakup. He tried to communicate a breakup to her and she wouldn't hear it and instead created a huge scene. Medical school is known to be extremely stressful even for the most emotionally stable individuals. I'm sure it takes its toll on many a relationship, but I wouldn't bet that all the relationship fallout looks quite like this. This seems over the top to me and how much of her behavior is he culpable for? Anyone has a choice whether or not to walk away, and not everyone can or will tolerate emotional liability and explosiveness as it's expressed here .(to the point of grabbing and trying to take his phone?!) That's not necessarily abusive, to turn away and refuse to participate with that. It could be just some reasonable boundaries of a man who wants to do well in medical school instead of engage with this extremely stressful dynamic. @nullified Hmmmppphhhh. Where exactly have APs been "shown to do poorly at work and school"? Citation please. I think AP tendencies--being able to read other people, an understanding of grey areas, t-crossing--are abilities that are very adaptive in other arenas. I'm APish, Ivy-educated, have been nationally recognized in my field, and am still able to make time to obsess about my DA's vibe Looks like OP was maybe scared off with the blunt talk? Some of her posts are gone. It is a complicated situation for sure that likely goes beyond the AP/DA paradigm. Understanding your audience and tailoring your message--that is something else sensitive APS are good at.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 1:23:45 GMT
Oh wow, he gets the blame for her doing poorly at school?In all actuality, AP insecures have been shown to do poorly at work and school due to their preoccupation with the relationship and the partner. She is responsible for her emotions, the ability or inability to regulate them and perform her responsibilities, and manage her behavior to avoid violating boundaries of personal touch and space. I'm not saying this man was appropriate relationship material but seriously, this situation reads as incredibly violatile and emotionally labile on OP's end. Isn't it more realistic to say that anxious preoccupation has taken its toll here? I mean. breakups happen. Wrestling matches over personal property, sobbing scenes in the hallway, and visits from police who found enough cause to actually arrest, aren't a part of every breakup. He tried to communicate a breakup to her and she wouldn't hear it and instead created a huge scene. Medical school is known to be extremely stressful even for the most emotionally stable individuals. I'm sure it takes its toll on many a relationship, but I wouldn't bet that all the relationship fallout looks quite like this. This seems over the top to me and how much of her behavior is he culpable for? Anyone has a choice whether or not to walk away, and not everyone can or will tolerate emotional liability and explosiveness as it's expressed here .(to the point of grabbing and trying to take his phone?!) That's not necessarily abusive, to turn away and refuse to participate with that. It could be just some reasonable boundaries of a man who wants to do well in medical school instead of engage with this extremely stressful dynamic. @nullified Hmmmppphhhh. Where exactly have APs been "shown to do poorly at work and school"? Citation please. I think AP tendencies--being able to read other people, an understanding of grey areas, t-crossing--are abilities that are very adaptive in other arenas. I'm APish, Ivy-educated, have been nationally recognized in my field, and am still able to make time to obsess about my DA's vibe Looks like OP was maybe scared off with the blunt talk? Some of her posts are gone. It is a complicated situation for sure that likely goes beyond the AP/DA paradigm. Understanding your audience and tailoring your message--that is something else sensitive APS are good at. Here you go, it's from Jeb's page, the studies are cited by him. jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-anxious-preoccupied/I read a kind of abusive and controlling AP in the OP's post, and responded with an opinion that wasn't welcome. My take on forum participation, I shared in a thread about why we are here- in the general forum. If you go on the internet to write a tale like that, you might expect some controversial feedback. Her behavior as narrated by her was pretty controversial, not sure I see the sensitivity in it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 1:26:46 GMT
So sissyk, what I am referencing is information in a study that is illustrated by OP's post. Some insecure types struggle with addictions- studies show that also. I don't. Not one. I'm intelligent enough to know that there are general issues and there are typical issues and here we have an instance of an AP doing poorly with studies due to her own admitted preoccupation with a partner.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 2:35:28 GMT
Oh wow, he gets the blame for her doing poorly at school?In all actuality, AP insecures have been shown to do poorly at work and school due to their preoccupation with the relationship and the partner. She is responsible for her emotions, the ability or inability to regulate them and perform her responsibilities, and manage her behavior to avoid violating boundaries of personal touch and space. I'm not saying this man was appropriate relationship material but seriously, this situation reads as incredibly violatile and emotionally labile on OP's end. Isn't it more realistic to say that anxious preoccupation has taken its toll here? I mean. breakups happen. Wrestling matches over personal property, sobbing scenes in the hallway, and visits from police who found enough cause to actually arrest, aren't a part of every breakup. He tried to communicate a breakup to her and she wouldn't hear it and instead created a huge scene. Medical school is known to be extremely stressful even for the most emotionally stable individuals. I'm sure it takes its toll on many a relationship, but I wouldn't bet that all the relationship fallout looks quite like this. This seems over the top to me and how much of her behavior is he culpable for? Anyone has a choice whether or not to walk away, and not everyone can or will tolerate emotional liability and explosiveness as it's expressed here .(to the point of grabbing and trying to take his phone?!) That's not necessarily abusive, to turn away and refuse to participate with that. It could be just some reasonable boundaries of a man who wants to do well in medical school instead of engage with this extremely stressful dynamic. @nullified Hmmmppphhhh. Where exactly have APs been "shown to do poorly at work and school"? Citation please. I think AP tendencies--being able to read other people, an understanding of grey areas, t-crossing--are abilities that are very adaptive in other arenas. I'm APish, Ivy-educated, have been nationally recognized in my field, and am still able to make time to obsess about my DA's vibe Looks like OP was maybe scared off with the blunt talk? Some of her posts are gone. It is a complicated situation for sure that likely goes beyond the AP/DA paradigm. Understanding your audience and tailoring your message--that is something else sensitive APS are good at. sissyk As far as the ability to understand your audience and tailor your message: I'll push back on that because it really goes both ways. What I read, as a DA, is a controlling AP with horrible boundaries posting on an internet forum with DA participants, about her aggressive behavior toward a DA ex. And, in spite of this ex's clearly stated wish to be left alone, she appeared here to let us know she feels that he should participate in the civil contact she feels she is entitled to. This is all red flag behavior in my eyes, (including the arrest after inappropriate physical contact. ) Im her audience. I've got something to say in response that she won't like. And, I'm saying it anyway. It's controversial. I have no issue responding to this with a blunt assessment of what I see. She asked for opinions and advice. I gave it. Unfortunately for her, my opinion and advice was not geared toward sympathizing with her predicament, it was geared toward sympathizing with her ex partner's predicament ,concerning her. I'd expect any DA coming on here narrating controlling and over-the-line behavior toward their AP partner, to hear about it. Without a bunch of bubble wrap and soft pedaling. Is that terrible? Then I'm terrible. Perhaps she will be dissuaded from behaving in ways that violate his civil rights so he can progress his education in peace. Perhaps she will see that her behavior is damaging and even criminally prosecutable. Perhaps it would be a great time to start a discussion about the very real correlation between anxious preoccupied attachment style and intimate partner violence. This is a discussion board and some topics segue very well into discussions about some of the more serious and even dangerous potentials in these dynamics. I myself have encountered physical violence stemming from anxious hostility, in years past. This potential is also listed in the article I linked to on Jeb's page. Not all AP's cross physical boundaries, but some do, and she did. Not all AP's insist or feel entitled to unwanted contact, but some do, and she did. I believe there are studies linked on this board, showing a relationship between anxious attachment and domestic abuse. I take it seriously, and I am not apologetic about that. Is this saying that only AP's are potentially abusive? Of course not. Is this saying that all AP's are potentially abusive? Of course not. But here we have an AP behaving in ways that cross the line in my opinion (and apparently that of law enforcement as well, see a link I shared in a previous post on that.) I don't feel a need to pussyfoot around this issue.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 3:44:17 GMT
Also- here's a perspective I'm happy to share here as well. Needs. There is a lot of discussion around needs. We all have them. It so happens, that a DA (literature abounds) tends to value accomplishment, personal dreams, worthy endeavors, more than romantic relationships. That's a natural given for a DA. An AP is free to be their natural self and be aware of their heavier than average need for closeness (it's a relative term, and doesn't always involve i true intimacy, but that's another post). AP's are consistently supported in ascertaining, validating, and supporting their own needs, with boundaries. Well, that goes two ways also. Here is a DA dedicating himself to a rigorous educational track for a rigorous (and very valuable to society ) career path. That's HIS need. That's HIS priority. That's HIS life work. That's his passion. I can validate that , I get it, and I see how she is imposing her needs on him without paying attention to HIS boundaries.
Maybe it stands out to me because I can relate to not prioritizing a relationship the way AP are known (literature abounds) to do. This is just the other side of the coin. It's really underrepresented here.
In any relationship where needs and capacities, values and personalities, levels of commitment don't align, leaving is a fair choice. And nobody is entitled to any sort of continuance post breakup, regardless of their feelings about it. In fact, for a DA who may deactivate heavily under the strain of the imposed drama and intensity, it could be quite detrimental to his own life path. He did the fair thing to himself to honor his own needs and values, and end a toxic dynamic. It turns out, we all have different perspectives and sometimes the "sensitive" AP dynamic is bluntly offensive to a DA. Just not many voices here to point that out.
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Post by sissyk on Mar 14, 2019 23:53:52 GMT
@nullified Hmmmppphhhh. Where exactly have APs been "shown to do poorly at work and school"? Citation please. I think AP tendencies--being able to read other people, an understanding of grey areas, t-crossing--are abilities that are very adaptive in other arenas. I'm APish, Ivy-educated, have been nationally recognized in my field, and am still able to make time to obsess about my DA's vibe Looks like OP was maybe scared off with the blunt talk? Some of her posts are gone. It is a complicated situation for sure that likely goes beyond the AP/DA paradigm. Understanding your audience and tailoring your message--that is something else sensitive APS are good at. Here you go, it's from Jeb's page, the studies are cited by him. jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-anxious-preoccupied/I read a kind of abusive and controlling AP in the OP's post, and responded with an opinion that wasn't welcome. My take on forum participation, I shared in a thread about why we are here- in the general forum. If you go on the internet to write a tale like that, you might expect some controversial feedback. Her behavior as narrated by her was pretty controversial, not sure I see the sensitivity in it. I enjoy the back and forth hurly burly from many perspectives, personally. (From my Googling that reference is ONE 1987 study--so a thin reed to make an off-putting blanket assertion on like it was handed down on a stone tablet. Is coffee good for us? Or bad? One study is not truth.) When I read OP's story, I saw it as much more shaded. Yes, attachment MIGHT be ONE of the variables. But no sleep for days? Hospitalized? Police? This does not fit neatly into a black and white attachment theory. It is not an us vs them. I agree that it is doing no one any good to continue something that has become toxic. But I read OP as someone struggling with a lot of things and reaching out for connection in a potentially safe harbor. If you want to help someone like that, I think you want to make them feel comfortable enough to hang around a bit and then dole out the advice at a pace that they can digest. APs have our shortcomings, but we have a finger to the wind in how our actions are going over with the other person and adjust as needed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 1:15:09 GMT
Here you go, it's from Jeb's page, the studies are cited by him. jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-anxious-preoccupied/I read a kind of abusive and controlling AP in the OP's post, and responded with an opinion that wasn't welcome. My take on forum participation, I shared in a thread about why we are here- in the general forum. If you go on the internet to write a tale like that, you might expect some controversial feedback. Her behavior as narrated by her was pretty controversial, not sure I see the sensitivity in it. I enjoy the back and forth hurly burly from many perspectives, personally. (From my Googling that reference is ONE 1987 study--so a thin reed to make an off-putting blanket assertion on like it was handed down on a stone tablet. Is coffee good for us? Or bad? One study is not truth.) When I read OP's story, I saw it as much more shaded. Yes, attachment MIGHT be ONE of the variables. But no sleep for days? Hospitalized? Police? This does not fit neatly into a black and white attachment theory. It is not an us vs them. I agree that it is doing no one any good to continue something that has become toxic. But I read OP as someone struggling with a lot of things and reaching out for connection in a potentially safe harbor. If you want to help someone like that, I think you want to make them feel comfortable enough to hang around a bit and then dole out the advice at a pace that they can digest. APs have our shortcomings, but we have a finger to the wind in how our actions are going over with the other person and adjust as needed. I disagree. I am on a discussion board on an attachment type website. I am here joining a discussion, I am not a therapist. I do not see this site as a mental health support site although it can be very helpful to people in discussing and understanding attachment theory and real life experiences of the participants here. I am here discussing the topics. People can respond how they respond, I do not take responsibility for that. I have outlined my take on this completely in another thread. I will participate in my way and you can participate in yours, I will use my voice and you can use yours. I will be here with my intentions, and you can be here with yours. If there is a request for advice and opinions I will lend mine. sissyk, I truly am not here to meet your expectations for how I post. Thanks for respecting that. We disagree plenty and I am fine with that.
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Post by number9 on Mar 15, 2019 17:30:13 GMT
I enjoy the back and forth hurly burly from many perspectives, personally. (From my Googling that reference is ONE 1987 study--so a thin reed to make an off-putting blanket assertion on like it was handed down on a stone tablet. Is coffee good for us? Or bad? One study is not truth.) When I read OP's story, I saw it as much more shaded. Yes, attachment MIGHT be ONE of the variables. But no sleep for days? Hospitalized? Police? This does not fit neatly into a black and white attachment theory. It is not an us vs them. I agree that it is doing no one any good to continue something that has become toxic. But I read OP as someone struggling with a lot of things and reaching out for connection in a potentially safe harbor. If you want to help someone like that, I think you want to make them feel comfortable enough to hang around a bit and then dole out the advice at a pace that they can digest. APs have our shortcomings, but we have a finger to the wind in how our actions are going over with the other person and adjust as needed. I disagree. I am on a discussion board on an attachment type website. I am here joining a discussion, I am not a therapist. I do not see this site as a mental health support site although it can be very helpful to people in discussing and understanding attachment theory and real life experiences of the participants here. I am here discussing the topics. People can respond how they respond, I do not take responsibility for that. I have outlined my take on this completely in another thread. I will participate in my way and you can participate in yours, I will use my voice and you can use yours. I will be here with my intentions, and you can be here with yours. If there is a request for advice and opinions I will lend mine. sissyk , I truly am not here to meet your expectations for how I post. Thanks for respecting that. We disagree plenty and I am fine with that. I think there is room for all types of response here. The original poster basically described assaulting her ex, continuing to contact him when he asked her not to, refusing to leave his home, etc. That is beyond "not okay" -- imagine if it were a description of a man treating a woman like that (in fact, I've been the woman in that situation, a couple of times, with AP men, and I was FA). I'm glad nullified called out the behaviour. Being supportive is one thing, but indulging someone's abuse of another is something else.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 18:21:07 GMT
I disagree. I am on a discussion board on an attachment type website. I am here joining a discussion, I am not a therapist. I do not see this site as a mental health support site although it can be very helpful to people in discussing and understanding attachment theory and real life experiences of the participants here. I am here discussing the topics. People can respond how they respond, I do not take responsibility for that. I have outlined my take on this completely in another thread. I will participate in my way and you can participate in yours, I will use my voice and you can use yours. I will be here with my intentions, and you can be here with yours. If there is a request for advice and opinions I will lend mine. sissyk , I truly am not here to meet your expectations for how I post. Thanks for respecting that. We disagree plenty and I am fine with that. I think there is room for all types of response here. The original poster basically described assaulting her ex, continuing to contact him when he asked her not to, refusing to leave his home, etc. That is beyond "not okay" -- imagine if it were a description of a man treating a woman like that (in fact, I've been the woman in that situation, a couple of times, with AP men, and I was FA). I'm glad nullified called out the behaviour. Being supportive is one thing, but indulging someone's abuse of another is something else. Seriously. I don't need a slap on the wrist from the hall monitor here. This is a discussion forum and that's what I'm here for, I'm not here to be an online therapist and make sure that everyone is getting the therapeutic support they need from THIS ONLINE DISCUSSION BOARD. This is not a therapy session, this is not the mental health hotline. I suggested that OP get mental health support and called out abuse. I can't believe I'm expected to be the online mental health support friend, and I don't think this venue is appropriate for all that. Real life resources are available and appropriate, I don't have to fill all those roles. But I can share the opinion and advice asked for. Like anyone else here. I do think if roles were switched around then it would be totally fine to call it out- but I'm DA and keep getting reminded here in this thread how AP do this so much better than I am. Please. There are a few different perspectives here and mine is as valid as anyone else's. Thanks number9 .
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Post by sissyk on Mar 15, 2019 20:33:52 GMT
I enjoy the back and forth hurly burly from many perspectives, personally. (From my Googling that reference is ONE 1987 study--so a thin reed to make an off-putting blanket assertion on like it was handed down on a stone tablet. Is coffee good for us? Or bad? One study is not truth.) When I read OP's story, I saw it as much more shaded. Yes, attachment MIGHT be ONE of the variables. But no sleep for days? Hospitalized? Police? This does not fit neatly into a black and white attachment theory. It is not an us vs them. I agree that it is doing no one any good to continue something that has become toxic. But I read OP as someone struggling with a lot of things and reaching out for connection in a potentially safe harbor. If you want to help someone like that, I think you want to make them feel comfortable enough to hang around a bit and then dole out the advice at a pace that they can digest. APs have our shortcomings, but we have a finger to the wind in how our actions are going over with the other person and adjust as needed. I disagree. I am on a discussion board on an attachment type website. I am here joining a discussion, I am not a therapist. I do not see this site as a mental health support site although it can be very helpful to people in discussing and understanding attachment theory and real life experiences of the participants here. I am here discussing the topics. People can respond how they respond, I do not take responsibility for that. I have outlined my take on this completely in another thread. I will participate in my way and you can participate in yours, I will use my voice and you can use yours. I will be here with my intentions, and you can be here with yours. If there is a request for advice and opinions I will lend mine. sissyk, I truly am not here to meet your expectations for how I post. Thanks for respecting that. We disagree plenty and I am fine with that. I'm fine with us disagreeing too. I have no expectations for you...Im just posting my perceptions of how posts may come across and expressing my different default settings.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 21:39:11 GMT
I disagree. I am on a discussion board on an attachment type website. I am here joining a discussion, I am not a therapist. I do not see this site as a mental health support site although it can be very helpful to people in discussing and understanding attachment theory and real life experiences of the participants here. I am here discussing the topics. People can respond how they respond, I do not take responsibility for that. I have outlined my take on this completely in another thread. I will participate in my way and you can participate in yours, I will use my voice and you can use yours. I will be here with my intentions, and you can be here with yours. If there is a request for advice and opinions I will lend mine. sissyk, I truly am not here to meet your expectations for how I post. Thanks for respecting that. We disagree plenty and I am fine with that. I'm fine with us disagreeing too. I have no expectations for you...Im just posting my perceptions of how posts may come across and expressing my different default settings. Cool. I have perceptions of how your posts come across but I will keep it to myself because it's a discussion forum where everyone can be responsible for the content they post and also for their reactions to posted content. I won't engage this further, thanks .
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Post by sissyk on Mar 15, 2019 21:52:09 GMT
Calling me the hall monitor actually gives me a slight inkling of your perceptions of my posts. But I sincerely appreciate we can see things so differently and articulating those differences is itself helpful in the bigger goal of understanding different types.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 21:56:34 GMT
Calling me the hall monitor actually gives me a slight inkling of your perceptions of my posts. But I sincerely appreciate we can see things so differently and articulating those differences is itself helpful in the bigger goal of understanding different types. Yes, it's very interesting for me to see how AP's perceive themselves vs how they may come across to others. And vice versa I'm sure. Anyway, back to other discussions, each will take away what they take away.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 0:44:40 GMT
Actually, I'll say it. Here I see a classic example of AP INSENSITIVITY. Both in the OP posts and sissyk 's. It seems most important to the AP's that I support the AP newbie who narrates the story of their own perpetration of abuse of an avoidant, noted by other posters here, not just myself. Other posters have been the target of this kind of aggression from AP's IRL; as have I. However, the most interaction we are seeing from AP sissyk is that we ought to make the abusive OP feel safe and supported. Not one acknowledgement of the FA and DA accounts of suffering abuse as described in OP's initial posts. I get that some AP's see themselves as super sensitive and supportive people, able to put their finger to the wind to gauge responses--- so compassionate, so understanding, so .... wait. Not to the non-abusive posters on this thread, sorry. They aren't AP. Avoidant are the baddies especially if they are blunt calling out crap. But it's ok, I might get a spectrum diagnosis here to explain my tone. There's a diagnosis for people who don't get along with AP's, if you're lucky. Otherwise you're just an avoidant. haha!
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