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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 13:40:20 GMT
The thing is the fear of love is the fear of loss. So you're right. It's the fear of loss and the lack of faith in being capable of handling grief (whether it's of the other or yourself). It's the fear of comings and goings. The fear of giving and receiving. The fear of engulfment and abandonment. No one is free from these fears. I think secures are just a bit better at integrating it, but we're all terrified of grief aren't we? I know I am and I'm secure. Nothing prepares you for loss. There's this book by David Richo called "When Love Meets Fear" that really made the fear of love make sense for me because it sounds so silly doesn't it? Someone just got overwhelmed by love and ran away? Life isn't a rom com. This book explains how being loved and the fear of loss, closeness, etc. really stir up these fears and causes people to act out. I'm pointing this out because I'm secure, but I was dating an emotionally unavailable guy (DA/FA). He told me he couldn't officially commit because he didn't feel "enough." I definitely believed him and I don't think he just deactivated over night. I just felt more than he did, but was he scared of closeness, intimacy, and see me and other potential partners as a threat to his own security? Absolutely. So for me it doesn't really matter if the love is there or not or if the relationship is healthy or unhealthy - it's the fear of love all the same when someone sabotages a relationship either by clinging or avoiding. Exactly, well said. The core, deep, visceral belief for a dismissive seems to be, in my own experience of it, "It is better to never have loved, than to have loved and lost." There can be many philosophical arguments against it, but the deep feeling we have is "I know I am ok alone. I don't know if I will be ok with you, or after you. I choose the status quo because I can survive and even thrive here. " When you consider the origins of this injury it is not difficult to understand. And, there seem to be a lot of rom-com narratives on this forum, especially those who are holding on for upwards of a year, or two. It's just not that way, but I get that the AP fantasy makes it seem real somehow. Or does it not? Idk. But it's not like the movies AT ALL. I've overcome this mindset to a large degree and have deep relationships, I had to struggle through get here and it was very hard. VERY DIFFICULT for me. I'm very blessed and very moved by feeling that pang that comes with loving deeply. But that ghost is still there and appears when I deactivate. I just ride out. It fades and lets my new reality come back but it's still painful. |
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Post by mrob on May 21, 2019 13:43:01 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot, I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. I hope you’ve had your coffee. Search my first posts on this board and you’ll get a blow by blow description of a month in the life of an FA during and post break up. Regret? Absolutely. Regret for actions towards others, and regret that I couldn’t get over myself. The cycle for this FA, and seemingly others here reading from the same songbook? Infatuation, engulfment, deactivation, breakup, regret, reconnection, rinse and repeat. A sick dance that can perpetuate for years if it’s allowed. An FA, has the avoidance, and the anxiousness. When I read that, it explained why I act as I do, to a T. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 13:57:15 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot , I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. I hope you’ve had your coffee. Search my first posts on this board and you’ll get a blow by blow description of a month in the life of an FA during and post break up. Regret? Absolutely. Regret for actions towards others, and regret that I couldn’t get over myself. The cycle for this FA, and seemingly others here reading from the same songbook? Infatuation, engulfment, deactivation, breakup, regret, reconnection, rinse and repeat. A sick dance that can perpetuate for years if it’s allowed. An FA, has the avoidance, and the anxiousness. When I read that, it explained why I act as I do, to a T. I'm speaking as DA, not FA. I followed up on FA happyidiot 's post, identifying with her. I have in places mentioned a difference with lack of anxiety in a DA, it creates differences. Many people come here claiming to have lost a DA and really misinterpreting what might be going on. DA experience this very differently typically and apparently, according to happyidiot, some FA do as well. |
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Post by mrob on May 21, 2019 14:55:44 GMT
I absolutely agree with you. That seems to be the most common misconception of new posters on this board. People feel dismissed, so instantly think Dismissive Avoidant. The reality is generally very obvious in their first post.
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Post by happyidiot on May 21, 2019 15:11:39 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot, I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. I hope you’ve had your coffee. Search my first posts on this board and you’ll get a blow by blow description of a month in the life of an FA during and post break up. Regret? Absolutely. Regret for actions towards others, and regret that I couldn’t get over myself. The cycle for this FA, and seemingly others here reading from the same songbook? Infatuation, engulfment, deactivation, breakup, regret, reconnection, rinse and repeat. A sick dance that can perpetuate for years if it’s allowed. An FA, has the avoidance, and the anxiousness. When I read that, it explained why I act as I do, to a T. What led you to find out about attachment theory? And were you dating APs when this (the classic FA pattern you describe) happened? My point was that while some do, a lot of FAs may not fit the stereotype and may be thinking/feeling different things than people assume we do, as one explanation as to why we don't all immediately run to Google looking up why we behave this way and getting help for it. [edit: and yes, I will go read your old posts in case the answers to my questions are in them] |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 15:38:42 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot , I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. I hope you’ve had your coffee. Search my first posts on this board and you’ll get a blow by blow description of a month in the life of an FA during and post break up. Regret? Absolutely. Regret for actions towards others, and regret that I couldn’t get over myself. The cycle for this FA, and seemingly others here reading from the same songbook? Infatuation, engulfment, deactivation, breakup, regret, reconnection, rinse and repeat. A sick dance that can perpetuate for years if it’s allowed. An FA, has the avoidance, and the anxiousness. When I read that, it explained why I act as I do, to a T. For clarity (yes I've had my coffee ) my point in the perspective I'm sharing is in argument against what essentially is a rom-com narrative that doesn't play out in real insecure scenarios. The regret you feel doesn't lead to a miraculous reunion as is often hoped for here. The whole idea that you are tortured to the extent that a real breakthrough occurs, as in: Just add water in the form of the avoidant's tears and Presto! Happily ever after, side by side through the ups and downs. Regret and remorse can happen in varying degrees but when does it turn out good? The hopers and analyzers aren't typically understanding that the remorse, regret and pain an avoidant may feel are not indicators of potential reconciliation success. That's the key difference between the rom com narrative and what you describe. You're describing a tragedy and I've not seen hangers-on fueling their belief in that, they are fueling their belief in the happy ending with their interpretations. That's the overall gist of the convo we engaged in here, from what I understand. Perhaps I could have been more clear but again, I was just chatting with happyidiot before my coffee and we were definitely on the same page. 😉 |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 15:52:54 GMT
I absolutely agree with you. That seems to be the most common misconception of new posters on this board. People feel dismissed, so instantly think Dismissive Avoidant. The reality is generally very obvious in their first post. Yes, it's really a very strong pattern! Of course as a dismissive I'm like "Uh, ehhhhrrrr..." 🤔 I'm wondering, how are you doing with it all? I haven't seen much of your posting, are you experiencing success with a process of change? Honestly, the closest I can come to imagining an FA pattern is when I dated an FA and got all sideways and triggered every which way. I spiked into anxious and had a hard time getting clear of it, but it died a complete death on my end after a couple months of being just traumatic. He's tried to circle and I just am more done than done. Coming into emotional awareness and availability I have experienced something somewhat similar to anxious in the form of a concern about the relationship that I hadn't previously registered. It's probably true that my dismissive ex and I took turns triggering a little anxiety in each other - an insecurity more than the activated actual anxiety I see described. I'd describe it is an unwillingness to get too far apart rather than a desperate clinging. Anxiety, dismissive style is very different than anxiety, AP or FA style (generally- I see a big variance now in FA as well). This is where my brain bogs down with the concepts, forgive my tangent haha. I hope you're doing well with it, at least finding hope. |
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Post by leavethelighton on May 25, 2019 0:23:37 GMT
I haven't read all 4 pages of this thread, but in regards to your original question...I think people's ideas about love, fantasies, hopes, etc. can feel so Real, so much like an ongoing friend, a major source of your Meaning, etc. that to take a journey that will make you have to question and redefine your entire concept of "love" can be very threatening. It's almost like you may have to lose your identity, or some core part of who you are, in order to make that evolution. It also doesn't help to be surrounded by endless media, culture, a language (the fact we even have idioms like "Falling in love" "falling out of love") etc. that perpetuate unhealthy ideas.
So that may be why some people don't delve into the knowledge and psychology of it. If you question the premises upon which you have built an inner life, you have to be willing to question your identity.
FWIW .
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Post by leavethelighton on May 25, 2019 0:34:25 GMT
Also in regards to your use of the word "normal"..... 50% of people (or more ?) have insecure attachment styles, so it is indeed "normal" in that sense. Maybe not healthy, not ideal, not unproblematic... but it is normal.
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Post by blacksnow2 on May 29, 2019 3:19:50 GMT
Even if someone actually has no clue why they ended a seemingly good relationship or why they never felt "in love with" someone who on paper was everything they were looking for, it might not feel distressing for them and it may not be something they believe has been happening repeatedly or is a big problem. And they may get reinforcing messages like, "You can't force love," "You can't choose who you fall in love with," "It's ok to fall out of love," "With the right person, things will be easy," and so on. Avoiding feels safe. Wait, this is interesting. Are you saying those messages are false? 😶 I mean I totally see it. Things take work, so they're not so easy unless you're pretty secure and know what you want and have experience and etc. etc. Even then they're not easy. You can definitely choose to love someone, but as far as falling goes, that's just first stage infatuation of sorts. And I wouldn't be surprised many people turned to these quotes as a means of avoiding their relationship problems. I honestly think I should create a new account with the username Hopeful Avoidant. Because I'm hating the fact that I seem incapable of healthy romantic connections. Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot , I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. Also a good point. It's about self preservation rather than an act of intimacy/love scaring me away. The deactivation for me is like shutting everything out and feeling like an island. Far removed from the situation and disconnected from the person in front of me. No, I do not feel regret when that happens. I just need to get away. I'm pointing this out because I'm secure, but I was dating an emotionally unavailable guy (DA/FA). He told me he couldn't officially commit because he didn't feel "enough." I definitely believed him and I don't think he just deactivated over night. I just felt more than he did, but was he scared of closeness, intimacy, and see me and other potential partners as a threat to his own security? Absolutely. Yes. Some of the beliefs associated with my avoidance is being not good enough/perfect enough for the other person, I haven't accomplished enough, I'm empty, a feather just floating. If I share myself, I will lose myself. Like... if I let them into my world, they'll realize I am nothing. I have given the depth away. They now know me and what's there? Probably disappointment. The secure dudes who are interested in me, I just act like I don't know that they're interested. And I feel awkward and evasive if they make it more obvious or try to pry with normal questions about me. Then they inevitably give up and I can breathe. Someone in particular made me feel very self conscious. It was obvious he was available and much more capable than me in a couple of arenas because of his availability. I realized right then and there how behind I am and what exactly is stopping me from living the life I claim to want. |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 17:22:13 GMT
I'm pointing this out because I'm secure, but I was dating an emotionally unavailable guy (DA/FA). He told me he couldn't officially commit because he didn't feel "enough." I definitely believed him and I don't think he just deactivated over night. I just felt more than he did, but was he scared of closeness, intimacy, and see me and other potential partners as a threat to his own security? Absolutely. Yes. Some of the beliefs associated with my avoidance is being not good enough/perfect enough for the other person, I haven't accomplished enough, I'm empty, a feather just floating. If I share myself, I will lose myself. Like... if I let them into my world, they'll realize I am nothing. I have given the depth away. They now know me and what's there? Probably disappointment. The secure dudes who are interested in me, I just act like I don't know that they're interested. And I feel awkward and evasive if they make it more obvious or try to pry with normal questions about me. Then they inevitably give up and I can breathe. Someone in particular made me feel very self conscious. It was obvious he was available and much more capable than me in a couple of arenas because of his availability. I realized right then and there how behind I am and what exactly is stopping me from living the life I claim to want. In my case, he meant he didn't feel enough romantic feelings for me. Although, he did imply I was/needed better than him on an occasion or two. In retrospect, I could see how my availability and secureness kind of freaked him out. I thought I was a breath of fresh of air for him compared to the drama of his last relationship, but I could see now how my direct, but soft dealing with conflict and positivity made him self-conscious. It's funny now that I look back at it. I always assumed people would just welcome my availability and secureness, but it's ironic how an open display of vulnerability can trigger self-consciousness in other people who aren't as open. He hasn't been the first guy to comment on my ability to be vulnerable and super candid about my feelings and needs. |
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 2, 2019 14:42:41 GMT
It's funny now that I look back at it. I always assumed people would just welcome my availability and secureness, but it's ironic how an open display of vulnerability can trigger self-consciousness in other people who aren't as open. He hasn't been the first guy to comment on my ability to be vulnerable and super candid about my feelings and needs. It was surprising for me too, when I discovered how it made me feel. It wasn't obvious before when I was in the thick of FA-ness, because being so unaware of it meant I could feel some distant form of discomfort but could fake my way through it. Now that the box has been opened and I'm aware, it's awkward. In short: availability and security = you can see right through me (even if you can't, it's just what it feels like). |
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Post by happyidiot on Jun 7, 2019 6:08:09 GMT
Even if someone actually has no clue why they ended a seemingly good relationship or why they never felt "in love with" someone who on paper was everything they were looking for, it might not feel distressing for them and it may not be something they believe has been happening repeatedly or is a big problem. And they may get reinforcing messages like, "You can't force love," "You can't choose who you fall in love with," "It's ok to fall out of love," "With the right person, things will be easy," and so on. Avoiding feels safe. Wait, this is interesting. Are you saying those messages are false? 😶 I mean I totally see it. Things take work, so they're not so easy unless you're pretty secure and know what you want and have experience and etc. etc. Even then they're not easy. You can definitely choose to love someone, but as far as falling goes, that's just first stage infatuation of sorts. And I wouldn't be surprised many people turned to these quotes as a means of avoiding their relationship problems. I honestly think I should create a new account with the username Hopeful Avoidant. Because I'm hating the fact that I seem incapable of healthy romantic connections. You aren't incapable. You can develop new skills. It takes hard work, but think about all the progress you've made already. I think feeling "in love" can be more than purely early infatuation and I think that, to a degree, maybe you can actually even choose who you fall (and stay) in love with. Old me would've not let myself give my current boyfriend a chance, let alone have fallen in love with him. I made a point of opening myself up. And there have been times I could have easily "fallen out of love" with him if I was less self-aware. Beyond that, becoming more secure and doing work on yourself affects the type of people you fall in love with and makes you increasingly turned off by unavailable or harmful people. I remember in the past feeling furious about people saying things like, "You should choose better men," because I would be thinking, "Are they insane? I didn't CHOOSE this man, I fell in love with him, something I have no control whatsoever over!" I remember saying many times how nice it would be if people could just choose who to love, wouldn't that be nice, look at all these nice guys I feel nothing for, but I fully believed that it was actually totally impossible, for anyone. Now, I don't believe that you can choose literally any person and fall in love with them if you try hard enough, but that you have SOME control. You can choose not to avoid love. You can choose to examine deactivating thoughts and feelings. You can choose to open yourself instead of closing yourself up. But I think it must be incredibly hard to do these things without an understanding of attachment theory. Sometimes they really don't feel good. It's so much easier to just go along thinking the right person will open you up. |
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Post by persephone on Oct 1, 2019 5:47:51 GMT
There’s not a right place to post this I don’t think, so I’m just gonna put it here because it usually has to do with avoidants/ insecure attachment styles. Something I have a hard time wrapping my mind around is how people go through their lives running through relationships where their partners treat them great the relationship is great, but either over-night fall out of love with their partner or just never develop feelings for them. Or they have those few partners where they treated them like shit, but fell deeply in love with them (rollercoaster relationship). What I can’t wrap my head around is how they can go through their whole life (especially now) with all this easy access to information wondering why they never fall for people who treat them well and who are going to be great partners & end up chalking up their insecure attachment styles (usually this is what it is... I’d say) to “the stars just not aligning”. Like love is this metaphysical thing. I guess what I’m frustrated about is looking at people seeing obvious patterns in their life, but being totally blind to it and it drives me fucking nuts and how they never make strides to really figure out what’s going on and just say that “you can’t force love”. I get there is an aspect to attachment where you’re not going to be attracted to everybody (attractive & mentally health person or not) but what I’m primarily speaking about is people who have been dating someone for 6+ months (already decided they’re attractive and enjoy their company) and can now only figure out that they don’t love/like the person. I’ve never been in a predicament where I’ve just fallen out of love with someone or taken me MONTHS to figure out whether I fancy a person or not. (I am secure attachment so that probably why) It does take longer to figure out if I want a relationship with the person because I think logistics are more important if you’re looking for a long-term relationship, rather than just how they make you feel I know I may sound really harsh in this post, but they say we’re the most judgmental of the things we don’t want to see in ourselves. I really value not making mistakes, but even more so, not making the same one twice. Let me know your thoughts:) Extremely well put. This is exactly what happened to me, down to the “you can’t force love” part my ex said to me. I had the same questions going over and over my head. We were together for two years, you never said anything was wrong, but suddenly you said you’ve never been in love? Jeb’s Avoidant: How to Love (or Leave) a Dismissive Partner book actually explains this phenomenon: “Most people are aware of their motives for doing things, but the avoidant's lack of emotional connection to memories allows for an inconsistency of feeling that is hard for us to understand. A typical person would recognize something odd about wanting someone one day, then shortly thereafter rejecting the same person, but they are not conscious of a remembered “landscape of feelings” like we are.
You would not do that. But she [avoidant ex] could, and without ever lying—she could only have been lying if she wasn’t truly interested, but most likely she was. No, it does not make sense. Just realize you can’t fit her actions into your emotional reasoning.”
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Post by hola on Oct 4, 2019 17:26:40 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot , I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. I think it may partly be because a lot of articles say things like, "the love avoidant is afraid of intimacy" and also because a person who got dumped by an avoidant person may have felt a rosy connection so they assume the avoidant was feeling the exact same way until they freaked out and ran in terror when the dumpee said "I love you" or introduced them to their parents. Avoidants are actually afraid of loss, abandonment and also being smothered or controlled. And some people have speculated that maybe APs are actually afraid of real intimacy? Also I wanted to point out that someone can have a secure attachment style and still have problems. As an FA, I can confirm happyidiot's comment on Avoidants. My primary fear is being SMOTHERED AND CONTROLLED. That is my main trigger, and it'd start creeping in once the honeymoon phase was over. I used to be such a people pleaser at the beginning of a relationship I lost myself (I'd repeat my childhood). Then I get really OVERWHELMED with feelings of being engulfed and that's when my avoidance gets triggered. |
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