Triggers and Strategies / Outer differences DA and FA

Hi Laney, I really don't want to elaborate on the insecure reactivity that's likely between the two of you, just because it's not a good use of my own time on the forum. I'm still working through things in myself that limit me. I've described some of that today in the storymaking thread

I can tell you though, that I have a relationship with a fellow avoidant (DA) that has grown to be pretty secure and I cherish it. I had all the difficulty you have with emotional availability myself, and I've spent some years working to identify and change that in myself. I didn't try to work with his dysfunction, I tried to change mine. And I have been successful. We clashed and went apart and back together with ups and downs but the long term trajectory has been very VERY positive and resulted in a lot of change in both of us. We each had individual therapy for our own issues but never therapy together. We just took individual work to the shared dynamic and it's been great.

We are not in a romantic relationship now but I've detailed that in other threads. You can see my description of what we have in other threads also, I don't know if it's of interest but I am able to describe a relationship that is NOT natural to dismissive and it's because I worked solely on changing my issues not morphine around his.

Being the target of an anxious line of questioning feels completely impossible, and understanding more about the anxious storymaking helps me understand why.

>> yes i understand this and I completely agree that being the target is highly annoying and crazymaking. For me, I often find that simply by asking clarifying questions of his intention and commitment to anything related to us (e.g., going out, travel plans, relationship, status) to elicit an explicit acknowledgement will get me this sort of confusing conversation. it will then trigger me to ask more questions and then I become the AP Inquisitor. That further triggers me - at the end of the day when all I want to know is what the hell is happening, it is my fault that i'm a terrible person, and that because i'm a terrible person, of course i didn't deserve a straight up answer - the story of all APs. In addition, i always thought it was a normal thing that couples affirm each other by saying clearly and simply how one feels, as I've done in other secure relationships, and so it's also a way of making emotional bids (see Gottman stuff). sometimes I trigger him and sometimes it's the other way around. in any case, when one gets triggered, it creates a trigger spiral of each other triggering each other.

and so you're absolutely right that being the target of questionning and being the questionner are both very annoying and crazymaking situations. my new rule is also based on this experience. no confusing statements. I will ask only once, and if i get confused and don't hear a direct answer, that's it, i'm out. My current partner only became my current partner because he never wavered in his answers and always is clear and direct about what he wants. when i feel insecure and i ask questions about his intentions and motivations in the relationship, he answers them honestly and asks me back, and also asks me why am i asking this question - was there something that he did that made me feel insecure or am i just insecure because I have some doubts that I need to clarify? this then becomes a conversation that is honest and caring, and simply having it is extremely assuring that he is WILLING and ABLE to have honest conversations with me, rather than talks to me like I'm a burden but then uses me for sex. he only needed to do it a few times and i know that this is someone I can talk and and listen to, and the relationship became quickly secure and we just moved on. 

so perhaps I'm easily triggered both ways = AP or DA, depending on who i'm with. this is something i recognise and I firmly decided I no longer want to be so easily triggered, and the only thing to do is be secure (internal base) rather than trying to fix the triggering source (external factors). 

to recognize the clinging to stories and the deep pain of abandonment that it covers. Uncover the pain of abandonment, sit with the truth that this person I cannot be the person to have a relationship with, and limit the need for stories.


>> I agree with this - recognise the clinging, and what it was for. I think accepting that "this person" cannot be a good partner is one thing, but a much bigger step for me was recognizing and accepting that I cannot be the person to have a relationship with either. The way I behaved when i was triggered was making everyone miserable, and it didn't matter in the end that he triggered me, it just mattered what was enacted. the same goes both ways - it didnt matter that he was triggered, it mattered only that I was the one who got hurt in the process. In the simplest form, I was a crappy partner not just because I'm some shade of A, but more importantly because I have behaved in ways that I do not think is befitting of a "good partner" nor in ways that i think reflects my core values as a woman/person. I had to deep reflect on what I truly value, and even if those values are criticised, it is just who I am and that is how I should do things regardless of what other people do i.e., do not react out of being triggered by external forces. with this deep reflection it is an exercise in delving deep down into your core, which uncovers what are the stories I've told and tell, and what are the narratives and trauma that are motivating those stories, and finally, finding ways to let go of the need for stories and strategies to halt the process of storymaking because that is just so natural. 

I relate to you 100% here!
The description of my current relationship with another avoidant is in mamut 's "Break up... again thread.
The details that preclude a romantic relationship between us at this time and perhaps ever are in the General forum under "Healing DA attachment."
There is more to say about that which is very personal so I've omitted it.
The "Things we think and do" thread o started has some information.

So yes, if you'd like to explore the difficulties you encounter i. yourself as an avoidant that's great. Sometimes, we don't even know about them until we talk to other avoidants and the light comes on so simple discussions can be very fruitful to the process, you never know where it will lead and what you will discover. I have a much better time making progress if I keep it to what relates to me, for the most part, as a person trying to grow myself.

It's true also that as you evolve, others around you tend to evolve with you or peel off. You find a new level of relating that attracts new people or deepens your relationships with people also on a healing track.

This is where your own decision-making comes in, and this is where AP get stuck leaning too heavily on what another person wants or doesn't want, in my opinion.  The whole point of being direct, the reason that I suggest it, is not because I believe that will give you all the answers you seek.  I'm encouraging healthy behavior, secure communication.  That's on you.  If like OP, you are unable to do that, there's the problem to address.  If like you, you don't get a clear answer, there is your answer- this person is unable to communicate with me clearly, at least not in a way where I feel met.  

So now now it's up to you to decide what you want to do with that.  You probably know by now you cannot adjust his capabilities.  You can adjust your expectations for a friendship though.  You can lower your bar or raise it but I never suggest lowering it for someone who just can't get over it in an adult relationship of equals.

If you're not happy with things as they are, you get to decide what to do next.  You have some options- express clearly how you feel and what you would prefer (I don't know if you only asked what he likes or if you stepped up and shared what you prefer also).

You could make a request, ask him to plan showtimes too.  You can accept what he says as an excuse and realize that you're just not into people who don't reciprocate and make excuses.  What feels right to you?  You can only get so much information from someone and if they aren't really into meeting you in an effort to co-pilot, it's only up to you what you're going to do with that.

Conplaining about a lack of communication is, in my view, simply avoiding decisions and actions on your own part.  If you're ok with things, super.  If you're not, you have choices.


As for me, I prefer to only have reciprocal relationships.  All of my relationships are mutual in the fact that each of us plan, make effort, reach out, listen, talk, everything.  It's a give and receive flow that doesn't have me frustrated.  That's because I've chosen people who reciprocate and show me they are happy to have me as a friend.  That's what is the most rewarding and healthy thing for me.  That may or may not be your preference and you may or may not have solid reasons for choosing otherwise. That's totally up to you to decide, and to shape your relationship landscape.

I get a little confounded by the idea of handing the controls to a person who you know clearly can't navigate. I'm not speaking to anyone directly here, using the term "you" in a general sense.
I get that it's just insecure behavior to look to someone who doesn't have answers for the answers. But once you realize what's up, isn't that the time to make choices and design your direction ? If you want healthy relationship shops, you have to be able to discern who can form a healthy relationship with you. This business of saying "I want a healthy relationship but he can't do it!!" is only one way of looking at it. Maybe it could also be seen as "I want a healthy relationship but I can't do that! How can I grow and evolve so I can get better at that and choose a partner who is better at it also?"

I didn't have that modeled for me either, not even close! But healthy is my new normal. I looked to couples around me that I saw treating each other with love, courtesy, respect, trust, camaraderie. I singled out couples who reflect what I want to achieve. I read good advice and ACTUALLY TOOK IT. I developed a standard over time as I learned, and held myself to it.

It's possible to unlearn and learn. Life is flexible, we are flexible. But you have to apply what you learn!

In another thread you said you were grappling with being tolerant and secure vs being a martyr. If you've got that worked out that's awesome, only you can make that determination.

Also, from reading around I think you had at one point considered that he is on the autism spectrum,, so that kind of goes beyond DAFA and can influence decisions about how to help a friend. Although if that is the case I'm not sure why you don't include that information for perspective, with the idea that you see this as a matter of someone being "deserving". All people are deserving. You sounded like you were merely complaining, to me. I totally get if thats not the case, it's a dialog, in which many ideas are shared.

So, I just offer my comments as part of the thread, and my comments were about choosing what works for you. I've chosen not to abandon my dear friend even though he can't offer what I'd like in a relationship , I adjust to what he can do because I love him and he loves me and we make each other happy. I don't want to take myself away from him as much as I don't want to lose him.

So I don't complain about him, if I express some limitation I express it along with appreciation. That's a fuller perspective of the relationship.