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Post by tnr9 on Mar 27, 2020 13:58:21 GMT
Thanks again alexandra and caroline. Yes I'm seeking help for my son. Unfortunately the delays here are long but I'm finally supposed to get a first meeting with a psychologist next week. With the virus I'm not sure what's gonna happen though. If you guys agree, I'd like to post here an extract of an e-mail I'd like to send about the snowshoe event. You tell me if it's too harsh or accusatory. "For the snowshoeing event (we'll really need to get to the bottom of this), it affected me that much probably because I felt that you had already started to distance yourself a while ago. I wasn't down because I couldn't keep up with you (you know, I'm used to not being able to keep up with you and I deal with that very well), I was down because honestly it lacked consideration. I had the impression that you were not making any effort to walk together and/or that you didn't care. I'm not saying that you did this intentionally. Yes, I understand that you were in your own bubble. But that's the point, unconsciously, it was just another manifestation of your recent distancing. It was supposed to be our weekend together, not a time to escape in our own bubble. My radar wasn't too far off in the end, there was indeed something wrong, as you admitted in your letter. All this snowshoeing story is and example of gaslighting which I talked about in my previous letter (the word is probably too harsh, I'm sorry I don't have another one). You don't take the blame for lacking consideration, and instead, you went on the attack. You're telling me that I'm the one with a problem. I shouldn't have been so affected. I'm whiny. I'm willing to take my part of the blame but I wish you would as well. That's what is hard to continuously deal with, it seems that I'm always the only one that admits mistakes in this relationship (excluding your latest messages, thanks for opening up)." Fire away. So.....I would take out all the “you” references....first, because “you” references put the other person in a defensive stance and second, there is a lot of assuming that she should know how you feel when at best, you knew how you felt and assumed that she did too. Keep it to I statements only.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 27, 2020 14:04:46 GMT
"For the snowshoeing event, it affected me because I felt that we were not as close and that there was distancing from you (be specific here, what were the behaviors that made you think/feel that she was distancing)....I wasn't down because I couldn't keep up with you and it made me feel xxxxx. I felt that this was our weekend together and we were not even walking together.
Something along the lines of what is above is better...especially in an email.
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Post by toorational on Mar 29, 2020 17:01:23 GMT
Thanks everyone. I took my time to write my letter and finally sent it this morning. The snowshoe event is only a small part of it. I basically address all of the points she brought up in her own e-mails. Again, I'm taking a risk and could have chosen to just coast after her last e-mail, which she finished by saying that she loves me. We had a great little "virtual" time together last night.
Seems like she's back on a "high" and she's being very loving and affectionate, even if it's just virtual. I want to go to the bottom of this however. But at the same time I don't want to stretch her good faith too far and drown her in couple talk. We need to have fun too and so after these few long e-mails we exchanged, I'll drop this for a while. We really addressed a lot of our differences and of course we haven't found solutions to each of them yet, at least now we know which topics we'll need to discuss further. But not all at once, a bit at a time. With her e-mail she really proved to me that she loves me and cherishes our relationship. I need to acknowledge that.
I'm proposing to each that we have a couple discussion once a week to further one topic that we brought up during our e-mails. We'll see how she reacts.
Thanks again everyone.
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Post by toorational on Mar 31, 2020 0:41:09 GMT
Wow, we just had the most amazing conversation ever through video chat. My girlfriend had a really good idea, we'll have diner together over video chat a few times a week while we can't see each other and we'll discuss all the topics that were brought up in our e-mail exchanges. So we started tonight and ended up talking for a good hour. We decided to read some e-mails extracts and discuss that. All the topics we discussed seem to have been resolved through discussion like magic. It's so awesome what can happen when both parties are open to resolve conflict and are genuinely putting in the effort. This is what I've been wanting since the beginning of our relationship, actual constructive couple talk. For seemingly the first time she's really open to it. I'm SO glad that I had the courage to speak up about all the things that were bothering me in the relationship in my e-mails.
So of course not everything is resolved but we're so on the right track. I also suggested that we could read a book together and discuss each chapter as we go. She really liked that idea as well. But first we'll probably need a few weeks to go through all the stuff that was brought up in e-mails!
Thanks again everyone for the help! I'll try to keep you posted.
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Post by toorational on Apr 22, 2020 13:19:55 GMT
Another update because I need to vent...
Things had been going fairly well between the two of us, especially considering that we can't even see each other. We have been having couple talk every week to discuss everything that was brought up in our e-mails. The love was back, she was saying ILY on a very regular basis and generally acting very loving. Then I don't know what happened but a few days ago things went south. I'm still not sure if it's my anxious radar just being overly sensitive but the ILYs are almost gone (she hasn't said it unprompted for almost a week now) and she's acting more distant. In fact, today is my birthday and she did call me to wish me happy birthday this morning but no ILY. She knows how much I appreciate when she says it, so the fact that she won't say it on my birthday is devastating to me.
I knew that it was inevitable that we would get into another "down" period but I was hoping that the "high" could last longer, and I was also hoping that based on our previous discussions, she would actually tell me if something was wrong, rather than just acting distant without saying anything.
There are two things that I see that could have triggered her. First, she actually proposed that we finally see each other this weekend for my birthday. We haven't seen each other in 6 weeks and the situation where we live is quite good, the hospitals aren't overwhelmed and flattening the curve actually appears to be working. I'm quite excited to finally see her and I genuinely think that she was too when she proposed it, but now I'm not so sure anymore.
The other thing that happened, is that things went from bad to worse with my son. I did talk to her about it on Sunday and again a bit on Monday. I know that it has the potential to turn her off but I can't imagine not being able to share important aspects of my life with my loved one. Probably not what triggered her because she had been acting a bit distant before this event but it probably didn't help. I started to see a psychologist with my son a few weeks ago so I'm getting help and addressing the situation.
I know that I should just ask her if anything is wrong but I'm afraid to make things worse if its just my radar that is too overly sensitive, and potentially ruining our reunion on Friday night. I'll let things slide until Friday but I'll definitely talk to her about it this weekend, assuming that plans don't change.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 22, 2020 15:00:33 GMT
Another update because I need to vent... Things had been going fairly well between the two of us, especially considering that we can't even see each other. We have been having couple talk every week to discuss everything that was brought up in our e-mails. The love was back, she was saying ILY on a very regular basis and generally acting very loving. Then I don't know what happened but a few days ago things went south. I'm still not sure if it's my anxious radar just being overly sensitive but the ILYs are almost gone (she hasn't said it unprompted for almost a week now) and she's acting more distant. In fact, today is my birthday and she did call me to wish me happy birthday this morning but no ILY. She knows how much I appreciate when she says it, so the fact that she won't say it on my birthday is devastating to me. I knew that it was inevitable that we would get into another "down" period but I was hoping that the "high" could last longer, and I was also hoping that based on our previous discussions, she would actually tell me if something was wrong, rather than just acting distant without saying anything. There are two things that I see that could have triggered her. First, she actually proposed that we finally see each other this weekend for my birthday. We haven't seen each other in 6 weeks and the situation where we live is quite good, the hospitals aren't overwhelmed and flattening the curve actually appears to be working. I'm quite excited to finally see her and I genuinely think that she was too when she proposed it, but now I'm not so sure anymore. The other thing that happened, is that things went from bad to worse with my son. I did talk to her about it on Sunday and again a bit on Monday. I know that it has the potential to turn her off but I can't imagine not being able to share important aspects of my life with my loved one. Probably not what triggered her because she had been acting a bit distant before this event but it probably didn't help. I started to see a psychologist with my son a few weeks ago so I'm getting help and addressing the situation. I know that I should just ask her if anything is wrong but I'm afraid to make things worse if its just my radar that is too overly sensitive, and potentially ruining our reunion on Friday night. I'll let things slide until Friday but I'll definitely talk to her about it this weekend, assuming that plans don't change. So...I understand...I do. I used to say ILY to B and sometimes he would not say it back..and like you...I assumed not saying it meant something. When I asked him about it, he said that unless he said otherwise, he still loved me, but did not like feeling obligated to say it back all the time. It actually activated him to feel engulfed and pressured. If it were me, I would say something to the effect of....”I really appreciate that we are spreading more time working on any issues that arise. I have not heard I love you from you in a few days and that raises my concern that there may be something we need to discuss. I know you care about me, so I just want to ensure all is good between us.” Part of the reason for the “I know you care about me” line is to reassure her that you are not looking for validation from her disguised in a “are you ok” question. That takes the pressure off of her and allows her to to address the underlying question of whether there is anything you need to talk about. Meanwhile, I would highly suggest working with your therapist on your insecurities. The therapist can help to guide you through what is you, what is her and what are in fact us issues.
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Post by toorational on Apr 22, 2020 21:34:50 GMT
Thanks for your input. However, when we discussed the ILY issue a few weeks ago, she did confirm that when she stopped saying it in the past, it was indeed because she had doubts.
So far my radar has not been off much. If I'm sensing that something is wrong, then something is most likely wrong. I'm really reaching the end of my rope in this relationship and I can't take these lows anymore. I really feel like the doubts she has about her love for me are genuine and, in fact, she probably doesn't love me. She enjoys doing fun stuff together but doesn't love me enough to be bothered with putting actual effort in the relationship. You know, like making a small effort to please your loved one for his birthday. I literally cannot tell this day from any other, apart for the 2 min phone call this morning to wish me happy birthday (I doubled checked, it was indeed just 2 min). She could at least have made the effort of sending me a cute loving text like she sometimes does (that she knows I love). But nothing. I understand that she might have something prepared for Friday when we meet but I would have liked a little bit of love today. Is that asking too much?
I'm just tired of expecting her to make me feel loved once in a while but being always disappointed. I'm tired of loving someone who doesn't show some love back. I'm more and more convinced that she doesn't know how the genuinely love someone. I don't think that she has ever experienced real love. Only lust and infatuation. She values her liberty and independence too much. She'd probably be most happy with another avoidant but then it probably wouldn't be a strong relationship. But then again, maybe that's what she needs.
These are harsh words but I'm tired of feeling like shit because of this relationship. I just want to love and be loved back, unconditionally, with no strings attached. Not any of this bullshit like "I love you but if you need a sleeping pill to sleep once in a while, then I lose attraction. If you have issues with your ex, I lose attraction. If you have issues with your son, I lose attraction. If you get injured and lose some muscle mass, I lose attraction. If you expect me to make you feel special for your birthday, that's too much pressure and I lose attraction. IF IF IF... I'll love you if you're perfect and not asking too much of me in return. Otherwise I consider this relationship "complicated" and I lose attraction."
Thanks for letting me vent. I'm obviously really down right now.
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Post by alexandra on Apr 22, 2020 21:55:13 GMT
Does she know your expectations for how you'd like your birthday celebrated?
The list of things you wrote about her losing attraction are fairly common for someone avoidant. Instead of focusing on imagining what kind of partner she might need (since 1. you truly have no idea 2. it's actually just you ruminating in a negative narrative about yourself -- ie if you were different -- which is reflected in you imagining how she'd be with a different partner -- then maybe she'd meet your needs better), keep leaning into what you need. Sounds like whether or not she'd do better with an avoidant partner, which is irrelevant, an avoidant partner may not be for you, which is really the only thing important in this situation.
I do believe that this is a problem hitting all the divisions we previously discussed. This is a her problem (her avoidance making her inconsistent in her feelings and commitment), a both of you together incompatibility problem (you don't show and receive love in the same ways), and also a you problem (you're expecting her to mind read to an extent and are scared to communicate how you're feeling now in case it "scares" her, you're making a lot of assumptions such as she doesn't love you enough when it sounds like that's not true and on top of her intimacy issues she just doesn't show it in a way you receive it).
Things are tough all around right now, but happy birthday! And I hope you still found some way to celebrate in a way satisfying for you regardless of the extent of her participation in it.
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Post by toorational on Apr 22, 2020 23:21:59 GMT
Thanks Alexandra, always great to get your advice.
No, I didn't explicitly say how I wanted my birthday to be celebrated. But do I really have to? I mean, I'm not really asking for a specific way, all I ask is that a little effort is put into it from her. That's all. If we had been on a "high", it would have come naturally for her.
Yes, you're right about all the problems you pointed out previously. Today it looks like a mountain of problems that I don't have the energy anymore to tackle. It hurts too much when she gets distant and I can't handle it anymore. I'll still give it a shot this weekend to see if things improve but I'm pretty sure of what's gonna happen. The physical contact will sparkle things again and she'll probably fall back in love (i.e. infatuation) again for a while. Then the pattern will repeat itself. I admit that I'm weak and that I crave this physical intimacy this weekend, so I don't wanna rock the boat. But I'm dying inside.
And you're right, it's irrelevant to guess what would be a good partner for her. I need to figure out whether or not she's a good partner for me. Today this answer is definitely no. It's been way more often no than yes lately.
Fortunately I have awesome kids and they wrote me the most touching letters ever for my birthday. They love me tremendously and tell me so a lot. Such a stark contrast to what I got from my girlfriend. *sigh*
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Post by alexandra on Apr 22, 2020 23:30:11 GMT
No, I didn't explicitly say how I wanted my birthday to be celebrated. But do I really have to? I mean, I'm not really asking for a specific way, all I ask is that a little effort is put into it from her. You actually may have to tell her it's important to you. It's not uncommon for insecurely attached people to get triggered by holidays, birthdays, even being the center of attention. It may unconsciously be a reminder of really uncomfortable childhood memories, depending on the level of dysfunction of the household. Not everyone is all on board for celebrations that may seem normal and worth extra effort without much extra thought. It's not natural for everyone. She may have triggered herself distant with the birthday association (which then triggered you), not you triggering her with anything you'd done. I'm not saying you've done anything wrong or that this is the only underlying problem here. I am saying having a conversation about you liking to celebrate birthdays, your own and other people's (and that it being extra hard to celebrate anyone during the pandemic is frustrating to you) doesn't need to be scary. You may just find out she's not into birthdays. But it's not worth bottling up with resentment just to keep the peace and avoid perceived abandonment using this behavioral formula of not rocking the boat -- that's the AP response pattern. I'm glad you enjoyed it with your kids, though 😊
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Post by toorational on Apr 23, 2020 0:57:25 GMT
Good point. I know that she does not put as big a value on "dates" as I do. Perhaps because of the fact that her own birthday is December 31st and thus, was never really celebrated like a normal birthday. Still, I dislike to always feel like I'm asking her for more in the relationship. It makes me feel demanding and never satisfied. I would prefer for it to come more naturally for her. Probably a hint that we're not a good match.
Yes, not wanting to rock the boat is totally AP. I'm not exactly going to sweep it under the rug though. It's gonna be one more thing that will be on the discussion list on our weekly couple talk. I recognize that it would be even better to address it in the moment but I don't have the energy for that right now and yes, I prefer to wait until I rock the boat.
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Post by toorational on Apr 23, 2020 14:51:36 GMT
Crap. My girlfriend called me this morning and I wasn't able to hide the fact that the past few days had affected me. So I asked her if something was wrong because I felt her more distant. She got kinda mad that I had this feeling and told me that she was just very busy and nothing was wrong. Then she chastised me for feeling this way. Telling me that she can't be as loving when it's her week with her kids, but at the same time not really acknowledging that she acted very differently, exaggerating and saying things like "I can't send you cute messages every 10 minutes". The thing is, she hasn't sent any since last Thursday, just normal touching base texts.
I brought up the ILY and she was very surprised, saying that she had not stopped saying it. When I told her that indeed she had, she went the gaslighting route and said something along the lines of "are you keeping a journal or what?". She was convinced that she told me ILY for my birthday yesterday when in fact she absolutely didn't. She didn't quite believe me but said sorry if she didn't.
So at this point we're really not in a good place right now. That's the whole reason why I didn't want to bring it up. It wasn't because of my son or was there anything wrong really. It was just her being her normal distant self.
I've mentioned it here before and I told her the same thing. The hardest thing for me is inconsistency. I find it very hard to get a daily love message when we're in a good phase but then go a full week of nothing. The problem is that she doesn't even realize her own behavior. Yes, I could keep a journal and prove to her the drastic changes in her behavior but that would just expose me to more gaslighting. Our perception is obviously very different and I don't see much hope in changing that.
The bottom line is that she's mad that it emotionally affected me that she didn't say ILY in the past few days. So I'm not allowed to feel down that she hasn't said it on my birthday. How crazy is that. That's gaslighting 101 in my book.
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Post by anne12 on Apr 23, 2020 16:17:38 GMT
Why did she call you ?.With what tone of voice did you answer the phone ? Is it possible that you "surpriced" her and that you were not regulated and ready to answer when she called you ? Be carefull not to call things gaslighting if they are not. She apologized or ? Do you know how to express yourself by expressing yourself by the sensations you feel in your body ? It is difficult for other people to critisise the sensations you are feeling. The most important thing is that you can allow yourself to feel whatever you are feeling no matter what other people are saying. You are the one who has to allow yourself to feel X, y, z Can you do that ?
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 23, 2020 16:19:11 GMT
Crap. My girlfriend called me this morning and I wasn't able to hide the fact that the past few days had affected me. So I asked her if something was wrong because I felt her more distant. She got kinda mad that I had this feeling and told me that she was just very busy and nothing was wrong. Then she chastised me for feeling this way. Telling me that she can't be as loving when it's her week with her kids, but at the same time not really acknowledging that she acted very differently, exaggerating and saying things like "I can't send you cute messages every 10 minutes". The thing is, she hasn't sent any since last Thursday, just normal touching base texts. I brought up the ILY and she was very surprised, saying that she had not stopped saying it. When I told her that indeed she had, she went the gaslighting route and said something along the lines of "are you keeping a journal or what?". She was convinced that she told me ILY for my birthday yesterday when in fact she absolutely didn't. She didn't quite believe me but said sorry if she didn't. So at this point we're really not in a good place right now. That's the whole reason why I didn't want to bring it up. It wasn't because of my son or was there anything wrong really. It was just her being her normal distant self. I've mentioned it here before and I told her the same thing. The hardest thing for me is inconsistency. I find it very hard to get a daily love message when we're in a good phase but then go a full week of nothing. The problem is that she doesn't even realize her own behavior. Yes, I could keep a journal and prove to her the drastic changes in her behavior but that would just expose me to more gaslighting. Our perception is obviously very different and I don't see much hope in changing that. The bottom line is that she's mad that it emotionally affected me that she didn't say ILY in the past few days. So I'm not allowed to feel down that she hasn't said it on my birthday. How crazy is that. That's gaslighting 101 in my book. I personally think this goes back to what Alexandria was alluding to before...what you see as reasonable and what your gf sees as reasonable are very different. You feel her pulling away, she feels you engulfing her...and based on your individual attachment styles...you are both right. At this point, I think you have your answer regarding compatibility.
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Post by toorational on Apr 23, 2020 17:26:55 GMT
So, she just broke up with me. I'm devastated by it wasn't unexpected. It boils down to incompatibility.
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