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Post by leavethelighton on Jun 9, 2019 1:08:44 GMT
It's mind boggling to me how he got dragged through the dirt on this thread, for trying to reach out and invite you to spend time. You claim to enjoy that. You claim to want to be friends. But his intentions got ripped, before you considered your own communication as possibly dismissive. If you can't be friends then there is no need to pretend to him that you can. But seriously. Is he messing with you like others here and even you seem to suspect? If he knew how he got turned into a villain here for somehow failing by not meeting some expectation he might keep his invitation to himself next time. Does there have to be a villain? A victim? Here he was accused of being selfish. My mind is blown. You have insisted on being his friend. So maybe pick a lane? It's just so hard to understand. It's so negative. It seems that AP can truly be impossible to please just because of their own low self esteem. He coulda woulda shoulda and so could you but it was just a simple reach to maybe make plans. He didn't hear back soon but apparently didn't throw a fit and even clarified his intention on follow up. He wasn't "fishing" secretly and manipulatively was he? Then why admit it? He was just being a guy communicating honestly, expressing interest in seeing you. Was he really supposed to follow up after your dismissive - what was it- protest behavior? What is that? Being unavailable when someone is trying to be available? I just don't even know. So complicated and he was actually being kind, it looks like to me. Sherry, I think it's hard to say. He knows she likes him, but he only directly poses the possibility of getting together after deciding he no longer wants to! Then when OP directly indicates affection and desire, he makes no response. It could just be he's busy, or it could be he's consciously or subconsciously playing a mind game-- probably subconsciously. Maybe he's dancing with his own pain, or just overwhelmed with his own life excusably, but I wouldn't call it "nice."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 1:09:58 GMT
Yeah, yuck that he can't be more direct. I guess he's afraid of getting hurt in his own way? Could it be that he just opened a conversation that didn't get a reply so he didn't finish his thought? He just let it go? The event was for the next day and he didn't get a response until... the next day. It seems to me, the convo was dropped. He decided to stay local when he didn't get a reply to make plans , no harm no foul? Are people really supposed to compose an intro text with their full thought process? Unless he is some kind of tool who just announces he will be visiting the area and has no intention of attempting a visit- "Just so you know I'm thinking of going to a concert in your area but you're not invited, bye." I just don't get the "yuck" but I'm going to drop it haha! Damned if you do, damned if you don't sometimes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 1:11:30 GMT
It's mind boggling to me how he got dragged through the dirt on this thread, for trying to reach out and invite you to spend time. You claim to enjoy that. You claim to want to be friends. But his intentions got ripped, before you considered your own communication as possibly dismissive. If you can't be friends then there is no need to pretend to him that you can. But seriously. Is he messing with you like others here and even you seem to suspect? If he knew how he got turned into a villain here for somehow failing by not meeting some expectation he might keep his invitation to himself next time. Does there have to be a villain? A victim? Here he was accused of being selfish. My mind is blown. You have insisted on being his friend. So maybe pick a lane? It's just so hard to understand. It's so negative. It seems that AP can truly be impossible to please just because of their own low self esteem. He coulda woulda shoulda and so could you but it was just a simple reach to maybe make plans. He didn't hear back soon but apparently didn't throw a fit and even clarified his intention on follow up. He wasn't "fishing" secretly and manipulatively was he? Then why admit it? He was just being a guy communicating honestly, expressing interest in seeing you. Was he really supposed to follow up after your dismissive - what was it- protest behavior? What is that? Being unavailable when someone is trying to be available? I just don't even know. So complicated and he was actually being kind, it looks like to me. Sherry, I think it's hard to say. He knows she likes him, but he only directly poses the possibility of getting together after deciding he no longer wants to! Then when OP directly indicates affection and desire, he makes no response. It could just be he's busy, or it could be he's consciously or subconsciously playing a mind game-- probably subconsciously. Maybe he's dancing with his own pain, or just overwhelmed with his own life excusably, but I wouldn't call it "nice." My understanding is it's a bit of a travel and the event was for the next day- he didn't get a response until the next day. So by follow up time the plan was abandoned? Do details like timing matter?
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 9, 2019 10:22:35 GMT
Sherry, I think it's hard to say. He knows she likes him, but he only directly poses the possibility of getting together after deciding he no longer wants to! Then when OP directly indicates affection and desire, he makes no response. It could just be he's busy, or it could be he's consciously or subconsciously playing a mind game-- probably subconsciously. Maybe he's dancing with his own pain, or just overwhelmed with his own life excusably, but I wouldn't call it "nice." My understanding is it's a bit of a travel and the event was for the next day- he didn't get a response until the next day. So by follow up time the plan was abandoned? Do details like timing matter? There have been plenty of times that the shoe has been on the other foot...where I reached out about getting together and did not hear from him until the next day...but I did not make other plans so quickly...just not my particular style. I am still incredibly perplexed Sherry why you are so passionate about an interaction that did not involve you....it seems to me that you are taking his side of things even though he is not the one who is here. Frankly, other then what I choose to post..which is limited...you don’t really know him. Mrob and Kristyrose have a lot more of the backstory....because I have shared things with them offboard...so it isn’t as if all of this is new or a witch hunt. I simply pointed out that I don’t like fishing...through various responses here..including yours...I decided I needed to ask directly, as a favor, from him to specifically say he wants to hang out. He and I are good and I have put the whole matter behind me.
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Post by stayhappy on Jun 9, 2019 12:05:37 GMT
Here is how it went down B: Hey, I found out yesterday that there is a free concert in x tomorrow. I am pondering going. Me (next day because I went to bed early): you should go...sounds like it will be fun B: I was actually fishing a little bit. I was thinking about seeing if you wanted to hang out (although I have a feeling you probably have plans already) but I am going to stay local after all. Me: Oh...you know you don’t have to fish. I would have loved to see you.i am working from home if you change your mind. No reply. Hello! I totally understand why you got confuse. He didn’t directly say he wanted to spend time with you. My partner who is also avoidant are not so good at communicating clearly what he wants either. I understand that it’s harder for him to take the courage to initiate a connection, specially after some “hard” times. I just help him to communicate more clearly by making some question. In your case for example I wouldn’t see his text as an invitation either so of course I would not text back something like “Do you want me to come with you?” or maybe I would because I don’t really care if I get a no as an answer 😂, but I would text back something like: “cool! What kind of music?” and give him the chance to develop more his plans 😊. I know my avoidant partner would get sad if I just texted back “you should go!” but I’m not doing all the communication work alone either. He has to improve his communication skill if he wants us to work and he knows that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 13:15:23 GMT
My understanding is it's a bit of a travel and the event was for the next day- he didn't get a response until the next day. So by follow up time the plan was abandoned? Do details like timing matter? There have been plenty of times that the shoe has been on the other foot...where I reached out about getting together and did not hear from him until the next day...but I did not make other plans so quickly...just not my particular style. I am still incredibly perplexed Sherry why you are so passionate about an interaction that did not involve you....it seems to me that you are taking his side of things even though he is not the one who is here. Frankly, other then what I choose to post..which is limited...you don’t really know him. Mrob and Kristyrose have a lot more of the backstory....because I have shared things with them offboard...so it isn’t as if all of this is new or a witch hunt. I simply pointed out that I don’t like fishing...through various responses here..including yours...I decided I needed to ask directly, as a favor, from him to specifically say he wants to hang out. He and I are good and I have put the whole matter behind me. Really, what it is for me is just exasperation with the AP negativity and criticism, I guess it's just been too much for me listening to my AP friend doing this kind of thing about the woman he chooses to date, and I probably just need to set a boundary with him. The sniping and victimy drama is really surprising to me even though I know it's part of the dynamic. Also, just seeing all the criticism about this guy from everyone here, about the lack of clarity of his communication, and how he is "selfish" for not considering your feelings. I strongly believe that if he actually knew that behind your cool, calm, collected texts there was all this negativity, shame, crying, criticizing, all the angst and twisting and analyzing, he would not even pursue this. You know him, maybe he's that monster. But you have a totally different face with him according to your post, than you do here. Your own communication fails to represent the truth of your intentions and wishes, isn't that true? It triggers my own experiences with emotional enmeshment, I'm aware- the way you brought up his childhood over this text exchange, and your thought process about what looks like trying to reparent him somehow. It's just so much criticism and witch hunting (your words, I agree) over a guy texting one little text, and definitely seems strongly in line with the toxic side of the AP dynamic but everyone here just jumped on board with it. I know he broke up with you long ago and you haven't let go, that's all I know of the backstory but I have seen you indicate you want to be friends. This, in my opinion, is far from friendly. But it's your life. I'm just commenting on a post you wrote here. Perhaps being the only non- anxious poster here has me on the other side of the fence with my perspective , which is ok but yes, it blows my mind and exasperates me. It amazes me, truthfully. So- I'll see my AP friend soon and let him know the girlfriend analyzing and bashing is uncomfortable for me, and I'll withdraw from your threads as well.
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Post by kristyrose on Jun 9, 2019 15:59:10 GMT
Hi @sherry,
I think we can all understand your perspective as well. This board can at times be triggering for people on all sides of attachment. I've taken breaks from reading and posting when I felt triggered by reading some of the more escalated AP posts! Oddly enough the Avoidant boards didn't trigger me, but my point is, its understandable that you have your own thoughts/feelings on the posts in this thread and it does give perspective as well because in the end we don't know what B's thinking or feeling. We DO know, the history of the relationship and that T has been trying to navigate a very difficult friendship with him. I tried the same with my ex, but I had to cut it off.
I don't think any of us, AP or otherwise set out to manipulate each other, thought it can appear that way on both sides actually, I just find that with no self introspection or accountability on any side, that the cycle of pain just continues over and over. A lot of us on here are doing the hard work and it is difficult when our partners refuse, thus becoming our exes that just wont go away. It then becomes up to us, to take care of ourselves. Coming on here is where that support begins.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 16:25:06 GMT
Hi @sherry , I think we can all understand your perspective as well. This board can at times be triggering for people on all sides of attachment. I've taken breaks from reading and posting when I felt triggered by reading some of the more escalated AP posts! Oddly enough the Avoidant boards didn't trigger me, but my point is, its understandable that you have your own thoughts/feelings on the posts in this thread and it does give perspective as well because in the end we don't know what B's thinking or feeling. We DO know, the history of the relationship and that T has been trying to navigate a very difficult friendship with him. I tried the same with my ex, but I had to cut it off. I don't think any of us, AP or otherwise set out to manipulate each other, thought it can appear that way on both sides actually, I just find that with no self introspection or accountability on any side, that the cycle of pain just continues over and over. A lot of us on here are doing the hard work and it is difficult when our partners refuse, thus becoming our exes that just wont go away. It then becomes up to us, to take care of ourselves. Coming on here is where that support begins. Thank you and I hear you Kristy, although I don't at all see an ex that won't go away in "B"- I see an AP stalking and clinging and refusing to be truly honest with an ex and let him go. Ultimately , it's the behavior I am encountering in my friend that I see IRL that has me triggered- it's just so toxic and manipulative, he's an angry, spiteful victim caught in attacking her because of his own low self esteem and it's just ugly. Ive been on the receiving end of that and it was painful, scary, and I count it a real accomplishment to have stood up for myself finally and escape it. I've allowed the toxicity and "venting" this stuff in my friendship with this AP too long and then when I read this kind of thread it became an outlet for what I really feel about all of it. I've expressed it outright to my friend and still, he beelines up to me with an ugly sneering face to bitch about her latest "offenses". But won't just leave her- he seems invested in clinging and flogging himself and her. It's just poisonous, even to hear about it all the time. So, yes- I need to set even stronger boundaries and I've hesitated only because he goes into this self-flaggelation apology mode which is also very uncomfortable. And, of course I see all that in this post also, the internal shame and self blame and absolute anguish which ultimately stems from the AP's own choices. It seems so much of a quagmire of doom and ultimately, relief is somehow found focusing on the avoidant or other party in the situation. And finding fault with THEM. My part in this is allowing it in my own life by not setting better boundaries with the AP I have mentioned. It's taken a bit of a toll and I need to take care of it and take better care of myself in it. Handy discovery here, all things work together for good I guess. Thanks again.
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Post by kristyrose on Jun 9, 2019 16:27:31 GMT
Keep in mind though, T is NOT your friend.
So a little respect for her journey can also be applied here too.
Best of luck on the discovery process, it's tough but very rewarding in the end.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 16:40:46 GMT
Keep in mind though, T is NOT your friend. So a little respect for her journey can also be applied here too. Best of luck on the discovery process, it's tough but very rewarding in the end. Absolutely, which is why I acknowledged her being perplexed over my response, and shared that I have an IRL trigger and would set boundaries there and also withdraw from her threads here. However, she is posting on a public forum and will ultimately encounter people who have challenging views. I guess it could be said that respect for my process would entail allowing me to share it here too- but I also know that participation here is voluntary. Ive shared my perspective here and have received your response and answered it, I think that's probably in bounds for a discussion board.
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Post by kristyrose on Jun 9, 2019 16:54:23 GMT
Yep, all good.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 9, 2019 21:57:27 GMT
Keep in mind though, T is NOT your friend. So a little respect for her journey can also be applied here too. Best of luck on the discovery process, it's tough but very rewarding in the end. Absolutely, which is why I acknowledged her being perplexed over my response, and shared that I have an IRL trigger and would set boundaries there and also withdraw from her threads here. However, she is posting on a public forum and will ultimately encounter people who have challenging views. I guess it could be said that respect for my process would entail allowing me to share it here too- but I also know that participation here is voluntary. Ive shared my perspective here and have received your response and answered it, I think that's probably in bounds for a discussion board. Thank you sherry..this makes much more sense. I am sorry that you are being subjected to your friend’s complaints etc. The blaming the ex for everything is as damaging as taking all the blame. Actually...with a little insight here...I realized and owned my part of this and believe that B and I have found a path forward. I do agree with you that from his perspective, that he was clear in his invitation...and I could have asked questions or even have phrased my response differently. B knows how emotional I am....it is one of the reasons that I do...under all my APness...truly love him. He is the most accepting person I know...he has allowed me space to experience all kinds of behaviors that my mom would have found “unacceptable” and “overwhelming” and “selfish”...and it hasn’t changed his perspective of me. Likewise, I am trying to give him latitude to experience his own stuff and it doesn’t really change how I view him. There is truly so much good in him and I have more positive things to say then negative. I just have to mindful of the trap of my way of thinking that makes him “perfect” and me “completely unworthy”. It is that slippery slope that distracts from seeing him as someone just like me....still growing...still human. Please don’t take my post back to you in the wrong light...I have a history of taking every person’s view, opinion, feeling “in” (it is the result of having no boundaries for too many decades) and then feeling bad about myself...and I needed to put some space between your response and my feelings about myself...which is huge growth for me. I was finding myself reacting to your post as if it came from my mom....and you aren’t....so I needed to get some space in order so gain perspective on what you were saying instead of shrinking into shame. You are a valued member and your opinion does matter...I just have to be ever so mindful of my own issues and lack of boundaries. 💕💕
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 9, 2019 22:02:17 GMT
Here is how it went down B: Hey, I found out yesterday that there is a free concert in x tomorrow. I am pondering going. Me (next day because I went to bed early): you should go...sounds like it will be fun B: I was actually fishing a little bit. I was thinking about seeing if you wanted to hang out (although I have a feeling you probably have plans already) but I am going to stay local after all. Me: Oh...you know you don’t have to fish. I would have loved to see you.i am working from home if you change your mind. No reply. Hello! I totally understand why you got confuse. He didn’t directly say he wanted to spend time with you. My partner who is also avoidant are not so good at communicating clearly what he wants either. I understand that it’s harder for him to take the courage to initiate a connection, specially after some “hard” times. I just help him to communicate more clearly by making some question. In your case for example I wouldn’t see his text as an invitation either so of course I would not text back something like “Do you want me to come with you?” or maybe I would because I don’t really care if I get a no as an answer 😂, but I would text back something like: “cool! What kind of music?” and give him the chance to develop more his plans 😊. I know my avoidant partner would get sad if I just texted back “you should go!” but I’m not doing all the communication work alone either. He has to improve his communication skill if he wants us to work and he knows that. Thank you so much for this...it truly helps. Although I am bummed about missing out on an opportunity to hang out with B...I have learned some very valuable things here. I will certainly use the asking clarifying questions approach for the future.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 2:40:39 GMT
tnr9 I'm glad you found resolution and gained a new skill. It will serve you very well in any relationship, it's very empowering to show support for your own confusion or worry by asking questions. I see it as something that is loving to the self and also to the other. I found myself in a dilemma in this real life situation of mine, because in spite of my speaking candidly and giving him the opinions he's asked for, I didn't realize he was triggering the heck out of me with his aggression and anger toward his avoidant girlfriend. I've never seen him like this before but he's been single the whole time I've known him. He's escalated recently and I didn't really see it coming, and I started to get angry with him before I really realized it. I had a delayed reaction to our last conversation. As I've said, I've been on the receiving end of that and it was traumatic to me. I now see that the Anxious-avoidant dynamic impacts me in not just my own intimate relationships (I avoid that dynamic for myself) but also in friendships like this where I might be exposed to old stuff. Of course my triggers are mine to deal with but generally I have healthy friends in healthy relationships and that's what I prefer to have around me. I've seen the phrase "mentor couples" in a post here and I do value that around me. And single friends of mine are all on a path of awareness of their own patterns and growth. So I'm seeing that this just doesn't fit in my close circle. Anyway, I'm glad it worked out better than you anticipated with this situation.
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Post by mrob on Jun 10, 2019 6:35:27 GMT
After all this time, I would be sad if you felt triggered enough to allow B to have the power to send you down the snake from whence you came. Are his intentions reasonable? Are your expectations reasonable? FAs like me use APs like you up. We use secure people up, for goodness sake. There are people I don’t communicate with, although I’d like to, because I have enough compassion to not put them through misery.
Of course, whatever you choose is your own business, but I just thought it would be remiss of me not to say this again.
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