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Post by Dualcitizen on Dec 26, 2019 21:32:13 GMT
I'm sorry, caro . Back when stuck in the cycles, I had my two FA exes come back to rekindle with words of longing and kisses+ to back them up. Both then ran away scared within a week-- one straight up "taking it back" that he'd initiated things again, the other making excuses about why what happened was actually meaningless to him. Both said it had never meant we were getting back together (the latter later got back together, then within two weeks ran off again, eventually calling reconciling a "mistake"). While I had not understood attachment yet in these situations (the utterly painful end of the flip in the last situation taught it to me), so I was still making myself available and hoping something would change if they discovered their feelings for me were strong enough, I had a clear view into the lives of these guys and knew they hadn't done any self-improvement yet (and still haven't, years and years later, as I'm still just friendly with both). I did recognize these two situations were very reminiscent of each other, and it was not lost on me that at the simplest level they played out in the exact same way. I'd say you can try to take away this for now, and then keep yourself on your front-burner until you've healed and moved on enough to decide if you want to stay friends with him without expecting anything else will ever happen: it's not you. He's validated your belief that he has feelings for you -- he does. The connection exists. But he has a faulty enough operating system that it's not enough, and it's bad timing (in both your attachment / mental health journies). There's nothing to be done about that, and while it's not your fault, it's okay to let go of the potential. He may eventually still say what he has on his mind. He needs to do that without any prodding or shaping the situation from you, though hear him out if he does. But without him taking that initiative solely on his own, showing you his words and actions match consistently over months, and showing you concrete steps that he's really done work for real change, you're going to have to take his words and intentions with a grain of salt and expect he's going to keep flipping until he has his life under control. I know it's not what you want to hear, but his failure to follow through indicates where he's currently at in his process (which is, at the beginning). It doesn't reflect on you, but it does indicate you should keep building yourself up and not hang your hat on this guy. Thanks alexandra ! I'm totally aware that might be or could very well be happening. If I have any expectations, it's actually been that this will happen — I guess that's from all the stories I've read and everything we've talked about the past 5-6 months — and nothing will action come out of it as he'll be too scared / it'll be too hard etc. Surprisingly enough (which is HUGE growth for me), I mostly (95%) of the time know it's not a reflection of me. But yes, I do have a TON of work to still do etc. I guess I'm just trying to be act genuine and not focus on it as much as I was a couple of months ago. Of course, I won't lie, the validation helps a lot. But also does the work I've done on my own attachment and emotional state (but like I said, still so much to go). I want always to be direct, which like I mentioned earlier is a huge growth point for me. It takes me out of my comfort zone, but it is so much more calming afterwards then when I'm acting out of insecurity, being vague, and not being clear. It's kind of amazing. If you want to help this guy actualise/become awoken about his behaviour without any attachment, proceed, this is where I am at with my ex. I truly, my decision (not at my own expense emotionally, due to attachment) want to selflessly try and hint and guide a tad, and leave it at that, but mainly just be a good friend, build trust and rapport, and if she enquires further about stuff, lead her to the plethora of information I know, so she can gain self love/acceptance and happiness within herself, and end the turmoil caused by the trauma. True love will set you free actually. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 26, 2019 23:27:16 GMT
I have a question that I'm not sure exactly how to phrase. From your past experiences, would you say that the default state of these men has been avoidant? Meaning, in their calm every day state, they won't engage you....until they feel lonely or anxious, or encounter difficulties needing support, etc. No. Their baseline state isn't avoidant, it's normal give and take. But they can go overboard if triggered anxious, and then yes, it's all very short-term and reactive thinking. Some of this is tied to their shaky and inconsistent sense of identity. It's really hard to properly think long-term when you're constantly in shifting mindsets and don't know how you feel day to day about... pretty much anything. Because you don't trust yourself or others. All of my FA male examples here, whether just platonic or romantic, all believe they want LTRs and children and families... one day. But when push comes to shove, they can't actually imagine committing to someone in their head for more than a year or two, and then wonder if that is because they haven't met "the one." One is older than the rest and has "settled down..." but only because of an unplanned pregnancy. He knows being there is the right thing to do and doesn't like being alone anyway, but peeking behind the curtain, it's entirely circumstance and not that he's become more secure and capable of having healthier relationships. He's at about the same one foot in one foot out level he's always been capable of. The platonic friend in the example you quoted also had been in therapy for years. It's actually a shame we had this falling out months before I understood attachment theory, because then I could have given him a name for his issues to look into. He'd talk about his struggles and trying to figure out how to work on them often with me, and he's very smart though I'm not sure how truly motivated he was to change. But I don't think he had the right therapist to make much progress at any rate. |
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Post by amber on Dec 27, 2019 0:22:24 GMT
Alexandra this is so interesting what you said about the shifting identity and not being able to plan or think about anything Day to day! This is my ex to a T.told me he couldn’t plan or think about his future at all...he was just in survival mode and hence his life was messy and full of chaos.i couldn’t understand it as it’s totally not my state of mind...it perplexed me how someone could not see into the future, or plan for the future, especially with kids. When we met he said he wanted and was ready for a long term r/ship, but as time went on told me he wasn’t sure what he wanted from a r/ship in the future as couldn’t even see a future for himself let alone us. I’ve never met anyone who thinks like this! Great insight to have and very helpful. Comes from a lack of sense of self and makes sense there would be little direction in life
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Post by amber on Dec 27, 2019 0:26:02 GMT
That was classic my ex too. Told me he just thinks he hasn’t met the right person yet, despite being 49 and telling me he has never had feelings for anyone as strong as me. I’m surprised people believe these fantasies abojr life.. Like you said in another post about nit picking, he told me another reason for the break up was becusse I like learning, reading and educating myself and he doesn’t, so he wants someone with a similar mindset. I couldn’t believe that was a dealbreaker for him! But now see that as FA fault finding
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Post by alexandra on Dec 27, 2019 0:35:31 GMT
@janedoe, deactivation is calmer on the surface but not underneath. There's plenty of research showing that physiological stress is just as high for avoidants in deactivation as for other insecures under stress even though it doesn't show and they're not consciously feeling it. The difference is anxiously triggered systems get hyperactive and avoidant get shut down. We've talked in another thread about how this may also be related to some different chemical makeups in serotonin or dopamine that may make people more genetically inclined to one of these styles under stress if they develop insecure attachment styles.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 27, 2019 0:41:22 GMT
I see the avoidance of dealing with issues (your own or as a couple) as more important than love. That's probably often not a conscious choice. But that is why I asked about the default or baseline. I do agree with this. I don't think it's an issue of baseline in the way you're defining it, but it is having your defense mechanisms trump all else. Which, after all, is the purpose of why an insecure attachment style developed in childhood in the first place. My LTR FA ex said over and over he was afraid of losing me. But when it came down to it, he was more afraid of facing his issues. He didn't clearly understand this... it just felt like something inexplicable was missing to him. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 27, 2019 2:37:23 GMT
]]Mrob....I appreciate that as an FA male....there is this “I am reacting to an escalation” storyline....but...I have seen this same story play out with secure friends of mine....so, I do believe that sometimes, it is a perceived escalation rather than a true one....especially for those who do not look at their own stuff. I also believe the very worst thing that can be said to someone with an AP attachment is...”you caused me to react how I did”. It has taken decades for me to stop trying to play the game...be the person I think the other person wants me to be without any consideration for myself. It just perpetuates the myth that if I could only be....”different”...then I can get what I want. It creates a relationship built on transactions versus helping each other become the best individuals they can be. I would absolutely agree. Perceived as well as actual. The other thing is that most people, on both sides are on their best behaviour during the honeymoon period and are able to hide or delay their own agenda. If the agenda is to eventually put me in chains and call it “happily ever after”, no thanks. I’d like to be able to fully relax into that, but I don’t see it happening, regardless of how my attachment style is moving (and it is moving!) |
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Post by mrob on Dec 27, 2019 4:27:07 GMT
I hope, for your sake, you haven’t completed the FA/AP cycle.
Beware and good luck.
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Post by serenity on Dec 27, 2019 5:49:57 GMT
I hope, for your sake, you haven’t completed the FA/AP cycle. Beware and good luck. Also, at this point - since he is working on himself and communicating that, I feel like it’s ok to gently bring in the attachment style thing under the hood of I learned this and it helped me. Hugs Caroline <3 I kinda felt like crying after I read about your Christmas together. Holidays are usually awful for avoidants, and he not only showed up but asked you to be his girlfriend. Whatever happens next, I feel like you deserved that. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 27, 2019 6:48:37 GMT
caro, how nice that he is showing up! I'm with mrob. Don't be scared, but go slow and don't over-invest until you've seen at least a few months of consistency. Depression is tricky. Keep an open mind, but also stay realistic on who he is and don't fall back into the trap of doing all the work. It will be tempting to race ahead, as there's going to be anxiety relief and honeymoon excitement, but if you stay true to your needs and boundaries you should be just fine no matter what happens 
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Post by ocarina on Dec 27, 2019 11:56:30 GMT
Whilst it will be difficult not to let the past colour perception and reaction, it’s actually fairly simple - if you’re looking for an intimate long term relationship that is functional you need a partner who will show up, be communicative and receptive of your needs consistently no matter what. If he can then that’s wonderful.
The Aeon article I posted on the general forum yesterday sums it up.
Whatever happens it’s good to have this validation. Be brave and honest - a good relationship doesn’t require you to walk on egg shells and allows you to flourish in your own skin.
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Post by bohemianraspberry on Dec 27, 2019 14:08:45 GMT
Caroline, wow, is this really happening?! How great - wish it was me... I understand your worries. In a way there would have been easier not being armed with the knowledge of FA cycling. I am very curious to see how this will turn out. Best of wishes for you two into the new year. Big hug |
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 27, 2019 15:20:59 GMT
caro - I’m so happy for you that he’s being open and willing to communicate. Perhaps the medicine is making a difference? If this was my situation I would wonder why the 180...such a big shift. Time is the best test w any person...keep allowing yourself to communicate openly and directly. Keep being the caring and compassionate person you have always shown him you are and see how things unfold. No matter what happens w my DA, I see the progress in myself that I am being vulnerable in my communication and expressing my needs clearly and calmly, without things building up, escalating and later exploding. This is new to me and doesn’t come naturally, but I’m running new scripts and replacing the old. Hopefully this is a break through and turning point for your guy. Enjoy this time and keep your anchor within!
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Post by alexandra on Dec 28, 2019 0:36:29 GMT
@janedoe, it depends on the person and how insecure they are. If they've found a partner who is controlling and it's just a response to the situation and based on a real threat (ie another insecure partner), then sure. It's normal to respond more avoidantly to someone with an unaware anxious leaning attachment style or a personality disorder. However, if someone is truly FA, their triggers are also going to be projection and overcoupling unrelated to the partner and instead related to unconscious abandonment (and conscious engulfment) fears and freeze and shut down responses. While I have relatively low levels of avoidance, I truly believe triggers in either direction are more likely to be coming from somewhere past and internal than from a partner, unless the partner is clearly also emotionally unsafe / unstable / unhealthy. There's the avoidance trap of wondering if it's always the other person causing the problem, which can delay addressing it if it's within yourself, or put it off entirely, just to push away what may be a healthy partner (which can be just as scary as an unhealthy partner, though for other reasons).
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Post by alexandra on Dec 28, 2019 0:39:21 GMT
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