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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 4:04:12 GMT
caro nyc718 I think the issue with where this line of questioning is going is it's a walking on eggshells approach. You're assuming asking someone avoidant to hang out will cause engulfment and deactivation, and the asker feels fear or frustration in response. But unless you're constantly contacting someone and trying to guilt them into seeing you every day when they also want to have some independence to have things in life outside the relationship, saying hey, do you want to get together this week? Tuesday or Thursday would work best for me, how about you? shouldn't cause engulfment and deactivation. If it does, it's either not because of you and is the other person's problem, or it is because of a real issue with the relationship but it's some different problem that's deeper than just hanging out, and getting triggered by making plans is a symptom not the cause. So, you should just be reaching out if and when you want to, and not be worried if wanting to hang out is triggering. Because if it is so triggering that it causes more than a couple days of deactivation and there's so little foundational consistency that saying do you want to hang out tomorrow is leading to the other person questioning the entire relationship, then the relationship probably isn't a strong long-term bet anyway. If you have normal boundaries and are not being codependent or invading the other person's space by making them the center of your life and identity, then their triggering is theirs to deal with. You can still ask them what might make them comfortable and the best way to make plans, but they are adults too. You can be sensible, empathetic, and fair without treating them like fragile children (which is a romantic relationship imbalance anyway). Yes, I was absolutely walking on eggshells, and it's something I did with my mother growing up, and doing this again with the man I loved was too much, I had to leave that. It was too much thinking about and worrying about him and his triggers and reactions about things that to me are just normal interactions, not things to be triggered about. It was hard to know that I could be direct about certain things, yet also have to watch how/what/when I said other things. I'm not a delicate flower, and I don't like to treat someone like that either, though I know that being sensitive to someone is important because some people are definitely more sensitive. However, walking on eggshells is different than being sensitive to someone, it's completely altering who I am as a person. I feel I *should* have been able to just reach out when I wanted to, but his sometimes vague responses or lack of follow up about things made me lost my confidence about reaching out. The vague or non replies would then trigger me over and over, and I really have just done too much work on myself for someone to come in and bring all that kind of anxiety back for me that I had long resolved. I know it wasn't intentional, but the affect was the same, sending me on a downward self esteem spiral and making me question myself, when there was no reason to as my intentions were not to harm him. As much as I love him, I love myself more, and I had to do what I had to do which is leave that relationship since he wasn't aware, and is so far from where he would need to be to have a functioning relationship. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 4:08:52 GMT
nyc718 , I don't think it's a time passage thing. I think it's one of a few things, or a combination: people pleasing (they don't want to say no and feel bad about it if they don't have to), being bad communicators / not wanting to have to answer for their whereabouts (it not occurring to them to say I may already have plans that may also fall through or I can shift so let me get back to you, and then maybe forgetting they didn't give you a response), and being disorganized or having troubling planning something outside their normal routines. I don't think it's intentional, it just is. You ask me on Monday if I want to hang out on Friday. If I have unstable emotions, I won't know if I'll feel like hanging out until Friday. Got it. I'm pretty opposite. I like to know plans in advance so I can fit in everything and everyone else, and show up when I say I will. . I knew a woman who was ADD and would either cancel last minute or bail all the time. I liked her a lot, but I had to let her go as a friend, as my time was constantly wasted. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 4:12:04 GMT
You’re right... questioning this feels like just wanting to understand but is likely the AP thing of not wanting to cause trouble / control. I think what may be counterintuitive to you is that you thinking about the whys and hows and whens is a method of control. And people can feel that even if you don't intend for them to. And thus when you aren't direct, you will cause someone to feel engulfed because you are working so hard to control everything (how you act, what you think, figuring out the other person...). Well then it's really just no winning. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I suppose it goes both ways, as FA can feel the same way. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 4:22:09 GMT
Got it. I'm pretty opposite. I like to know plans in advance so I can fit in everything and everyone else, and show up when I say I will. . I knew a woman who was ADD and would either cancel last minute or bail all the time. I liked her a lot, but I had to let her go as a friend, as my time was constantly wasted. Understandable and responsible. But your reason is in a completely different realm. If you are someone who struggles with anxiety, the last thing you may be able to handle is being with someone you possibly care about and fear being rejected by when you can't control your emotions. The difference for you and someone with fluctuating emotions is that that person has contingencies that can alter their ability to attend and not embarrass themselves. It's not so much about an ability to keep their word. Someone who is more aware and more considerate will wait till last minute to agree instead of agreeing and bailing! I get it. I know that I need someone who can be more stable in their emotions. I just don't have the ability to support that kind of vagueness and lack of clarity, unless they are actively working on themselves. Even in friendships, I don't think I have one friend who is flaky, as I have pretty much eliminated them out of my inner circle. Too frustrating. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 4:25:50 GMT
Well then it's really just no winning. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I suppose it goes both ways, as FA can feel the same way. Not at all. Just act natural and be direct. Don't obsess. Don't analyze me and try to figure me out so you say and do the right thing. I want you to be yourself. I don't want you to control things so the outcome goes the way you want it. I want to have a choice in this too. Ok, but if being myself and being natural and direct causes misunderstanding, engulfment and deactivation, then it's also affecting me and making my subconscious go back to that place of being scared of being myself. Basically, we just trigger the shit out of each other, and unless we are both working on ourselves, there is no winning. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 4:33:06 GMT
I get it. I know that I need someone who can be more stable in their emotions. I just don't have the ability to support that kind of vagueness and lack of clarity, unless they are actively working on themselves. Even in friendships, I don't think I have one friend who is flaky, as I have pretty much eliminated them out of my inner circle. Too frustrating. Of course. You are saying you want to surround yourself with stable secure people. It's a good goal. What I described should never be a permanent state for anyone. But we are discussing FAs, so that could be a contribution to making / not making plans. I have a few borderline "flaky" friends. What I have learned is that when I needed it, they have given me a lot of grace. So I don't forget that when they have their moments. I will let them know how I feel about it though without beating them over the head. And they try to do better. I am pretty responsible, so when I say or make plans, it would take a lot for me to not show up. I feel responsible and accountable to others in that way. Say what you mean and mean what you say kind of thing, and I thrive best with people close to me who are the same. So I haven't really needed too much grace from the people I decided to cut out. If anything, I was the one who had given them grace over and over until I couldn't tolerate my time being wasted anymore. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 4:48:53 GMT
Ok, but if being myself and being natural and direct causes misunderstanding, engulfment and deactivation, then it's also affecting me and making my subconscious go back to that place of being scared of being myself. Basically, we just trigger the shit out of each other, and unless we are both working on ourselves, there is no winning. Well, I'd say being direct has the LEAST chance of being misunderstood. And sure you can possibly cause engulfment that way (for example, directly telling an FA you want a relationship when he doesn't want one). But really, the goal should be to be with someone secure anyway. Or at least someone who is aware and working towards that because anyone can be triggered by inconsistency. The difference for a secure is that they won't stay with someone whose inconsistency makes them feel that way. For myself, I rarely feel engulfed if you are direct with me. But I will run 100% of the time if you walk on eggshells around me. This seems to contradict mrob's stance on being a sovereign person that he has mentioned a few times, so clearly i'm confused, but also I personally like when a man takes the lead in making plans. Not every time of course, but I've always thrived better when a man is saying if not in words, then actions, hey, I want to see you, and this is when and where I want to see you. Anyway, I think we can go back and forth for days about the big differences, but I am a little tired right now. I do appreciate your insight though, it definitely gives me things to think about how the other side ticks. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 4:50:59 GMT
I am pretty responsible, so when I say or make plans, it would take a lot for me to not show up. I feel responsible and accountable to others in that way. Say what you mean and mean what you say kind of thing, and I thrive best with people close to me who are the same. So I haven't really needed too much grace from the people I decided to cut out. If anything, I was the one who had given them grace over and over until I couldn't tolerate my time being wasted anymore. I don't mean grace for not showing up. I mean grace for when I needed someone to cry to, when I was blocked by the FA I dated at 2am and I needed someone to call at that very moment, when I was maybe too blunt and not as considerate of her feelings. We all need grace. Maybe just for different things. Got it. The people who I considered flakes aren't the people I'd turn to for that in my life. As I said, I thrive best with people who are more like minded as myself, so the ones who I cry too are the ones I also can count on in other areas too. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 9, 2020 5:06:04 GMT
This seems to contradict mrob's stance on being a sovereign person that he has mentioned a few times, so clearly i'm confused, but also I personally like when a man takes the lead in making plans. It doesn't, though. Being a sovereign person doesn't mean taking the lead or making the decisions. It means not feeling manipulated... not feeling like the partner's words and actions don't line up (she says she's okay not seeing me tonight or with whatever I decide about something but it doesn't actually seem true... maybe I'm being manipulated and eventually it will turn into controlling and oh, now I'm alert and frozen and triggered and fleeing). It also means not being expected to provide more than can actually be comfortably given. That's why direct language, that's honest and aligns with action, is the smoothest. The partner knows what you want and trusts you're being honest in intention, and then has space to choose how to respond. It doesn't eliminate general (unaware) FA triggers coming from themselves and fear of vulnerability and intimacy and commitment, though. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 9, 2020 5:11:19 GMT
Yeh, I was really shocked by that realization on that. Maybe I need a tattoo on my hand that reminds me of it, and can immediately take me back to a grounded place. It’s kind of like a slap on the wrist, and retraining myself not to get sucked into auto anxious rabbit holes, etc... The procrastination thing and delaying things I’m afraid I’d fail at makes sense, but I’m still trying to think about it in terms of things that I couldn’t really fail at - for example, eating healthy and consistent exercise, I know this will cause me to lose the weight I want cause I’ve done it before... but why do I have such a hard time staying on track? I guess because I get anxious, stress eat, and put off exercise cause it’s not fun? I don’t know def more parts to explore... and more important. Maybe part of that self procrastination is also focusing on others because ultimately I have less control over them and can’t truly fail as much as I can fail with myself? I don’t, I’m rambling at this point... A lot of this is tied to feeling like you have to be perfect and failure is always bad and must be avoided at all costs. And that is a narrative... failure is often completely fine, because you learn and course correct after. And yes, AP tend to focus externally and fix other people's problems in part to avoid looking inward and facing their own. There's less risk when you think other people are better than self because on some level you believe they'll be okay no matter what the outcome, yet you don't give yourself the same leeway. |
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Post by mrob on Jan 9, 2020 7:33:10 GMT
[. I want you to be yourself. I don't want you to control things so the outcome goes the way you want it. I want to have a choice in this too. Exactly this. |
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Post by serenity on Jan 9, 2020 10:32:45 GMT
This seems to contradict mrob's stance on being a sovereign person that he has mentioned a few times, so clearly i'm confused, but also I personally like when a man takes the lead in making plans. It doesn't, though. Being a sovereign person doesn't mean taking the lead or making the decisions. It means not feeling manipulated... not feeling like the partner's words and actions don't line up (she says she's okay not seeing me tonight or with whatever I decide about something but it doesn't actually seem true... maybe I'm being manipulated and eventually it will turn into controlling and oh, now I'm alert and frozen and triggered and fleeing). It also means not being expected to provide more than can actually be comfortably given. That's why direct language, that's honest and aligns with action, is the smoothest. The partner knows what you want and trusts you're being honest in intention, and then has space to choose how to respond. It doesn't eliminate general (unaware) FA triggers coming from themselves and fear of vulnerability and intimacy and commitment, though. I think most partners of avoidants experience the silent treatment, ignoring, and ghosting in response to assertive and direct language. It hurts and traumatizes them, so they stop asking for what they need, or choose when they ask carefully. The silent treatment is usually seen as form of control and abuse for this reason. If someone is learning to be assertive for the first time, a person who punishes them with the silent treatment is the wrong person to `grow' with. The right person is someone communicative, empathetic, and non abusive IMO. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 11:30:31 GMT
It doesn't, though. Being a sovereign person doesn't mean taking the lead or making the decisions. It means not feeling manipulated... not feeling like the partner's words and actions don't line up (she says she's okay not seeing me tonight or with whatever I decide about something but it doesn't actually seem true... maybe I'm being manipulated and eventually it will turn into controlling and oh, now I'm alert and frozen and triggered and fleeing). It also means not being expected to provide more than can actually be comfortably given. That's why direct language, that's honest and aligns with action, is the smoothest. The partner knows what you want and trusts you're being honest in intention, and then has space to choose how to respond. It doesn't eliminate general (unaware) FA triggers coming from themselves and fear of vulnerability and intimacy and commitment, though. I think most partners of avoidants experience the silent treatment, ignoring, and ghosting in response to assertive and direct language. It hurts and traumatizes them, so they stop asking for what they need, or choose when they ask carefully. The silent treatment is usually seen as form of control and abuse for this reason. If someone is learning to be assertive for the first time, a person who punishes them with the silent treatment is the wrong person to `grow' with. The right person is someone communicative, empathetic, and non abusive IMO. yup, i agree! This thread has so much going on! I do very much agree with this; while I agree that walking on eggshells around other people for no reason is very much an AP thing that people, including myself, dislike, it sometimes is just very much a response to how unsafe the environment can be and fails to take into account how people should reflect upon themselves if they are safe partners. my ex often said that he wants me to just be myself and be happy, but when I am most myself is when he is most triggered. what he really means is for me to be myself at a distance and he doesn't have to interact with the real me directly, so now take these things with a pinch of salt. To add to what serenity said, for people learning to be assertive for the first time, it is often unsophisticated, childish, and "yell-y", because it's new and foreign. I remember when I first did so, I was castigated on the forum for being hurtful and unkind to my partner when i was simply just trying to communicate and assert myself using my version of direct language, but perhaps poorly and without good form. at that point in time, it was even more traumatizing after having to gather so much courage because nobody bothered to kindly explain to me how to assert/communicate properly that places me and my well-being first, but instead places the blame further on me that my ex had reacted poorly to it. My rule now is simple, state your intent gently a couple of times, and then leave it and observe. my rule is 3x; if it doesn't get responded to, it just means the other person is unwilling/unable to meet it. then walk away from them Marie Kondo style. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 13:11:55 GMT
This seems to contradict mrob's stance on being a sovereign person that he has mentioned a few times, so clearly i'm confused, but also I personally like when a man takes the lead in making plans. It doesn't, though. Being a sovereign person doesn't mean taking the lead or making the decisions. It means not feeling manipulated... not feeling like the partner's words and actions don't line up (she says she's okay not seeing me tonight or with whatever I decide about something but it doesn't actually seem true... maybe I'm being manipulated and eventually it will turn into controlling and oh, now I'm alert and frozen and triggered and fleeing). It also means not being expected to provide more than can actually be comfortably given. That's why direct language, that's honest and aligns with action, is the smoothest. The partner knows what you want and trusts you're being honest in intention, and then has space to choose how to respond. It doesn't eliminate general (unaware) FA triggers coming from themselves and fear of vulnerability and intimacy and commitment, though. Sorry, I realize I wrote that all wrong, I was tired and it was late when I did. I didn't mean that a man taking the lead and making decisions was the way to be a sovereign individual, though I see how I wrote it made it seem like exactly that. My thoughts on paper were running together. The last thing I ever wanted to do was take away anyone's sovereignty or make anyone feel manipulated, but it seems that the partners on either side feel this way - the FA feels their partner is manipulating by not articulating more clearly when it's really the partner trying to bend to make their FA feel safe, after seeing that the FA would sometimes shut down due to some actions on their part, and the partner feels manipulated by the FA then shutting down. Neither side is doing any of this to hurt their partner, and it's the subconscious taking in the information and translating it all into negativity towards each other, none of which is true. As far as a man taking the lead in making decisions and plans, my ex FA from two years ago was actually very good at this for the 6 months that things were good between us, and it was great and perfect for me. He would tell me where we were going and when. His neighborhood had a lot of places to go to, so it was discovering new places, or just going back to the places we already liked. The last FA, not so much. It was more like we could go here, or go here, or where do you want to go, or no plans at all. To me it seemed he just didn't really care, but perhaps it was more that he just wanted me to make the decisions because he wasn't confident himself in deciding, I don't really know. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 9, 2020 13:19:21 GMT
[. I want you to be yourself. I don't want you to control things so the outcome goes the way you want it. I want to have a choice in this too. Exactly this. This goes both ways. I also want you to be yourself, but I guess minus the shutting down? Does that then mean I don't want you to be yourself if I ask you to not shut down? Because when you shut down, it seems like you are trying to control things to by distancing, and it's takes away me feeling like I can be myself. I am happy to give you space if you need and want that, but if you shut down and don't tell me that, I am left to guess or assume you do, and no one wants to assume things, right? Seems it comes down to no one communicating clearly because of what we think the other is feeling, a shit show all around. |
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