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Post by alexandra on Feb 6, 2020 19:49:09 GMT
It is a red flag that you avoided the move. read up on Mark Manson's Fuck Yes or No. You're certainly not a fuck yes. I'd move on, pretty much right away. No hurt feelings, you're just not a fuck yes. I've read the book. I disagree with this, and not because I think everyone needs overt, spoken permission to make every little move. Being an insecurely attached person dating other insecurely attached people almost exclusively, there was often a lot of early physical activity when I was AP. This was because, being insecure, we each used it for more than just connection -- validation, anxiety relief, rushing intimacy because there was spark chemistry, not truly understanding healthy and stable relating. I'd have guys expect me to sleep with them immediately, even though I wouldn't do that because I didn't know them well enough. And I enjoy physical stuff, and enjoying it mutually is important to me, so I pretty much never did things I fully didn't want to, but I'd still feel rushed because when I was AP if I felt pressured to perform in this way it would spike my abandonment anxiety. I wanted to take it slower, but was hyper aware they'd see it as a red flag or rejection if I wanted to take things at a different speed, even though it wasn't, and they'd leave, so I'd still get physical earlier than I'd ideally want to to "compromise". And eventually, it would all fall into anxious-avoidant painful pairing problems after the honeymoon period anyway, whether that took 3 months or a year, because that was the real, core problem. Not enthusiasm or f*ck yes or no. Now, I just don't care anymore if someone wants to move faster than me, because I'm secure and primarily looking at sex as a means to enjoy and celebrate connection. I'm going to go at the speed I feel comfortable with because I want to get to know the other person first. This has zero to do with it being a f*ck yes or no for me. I'd communicate directly what I wanted and how I felt about the progression, and if that wasn't good enough, then we're not looking for the same thing or compatible. But I'm not talking about making someone wait months and months, or teasing them with an idea I'm not going to follow up on. Just want to have an actual foundational connection first and no longer am too scared to ask for it... it has zero to do with my enthusiasm for the guy. I like Manson's stuff, but he was avoidant most of his life (don't know if he earned secure or not), and I feel like a lot of his advice is geared towards other insecurely attached people. That rubric gives you a framework if you're partially disconnected from yourself and ambivalent about stuff, or chasing someone who is. It's not a blanket answer or red flag identifier for someone open who is communicating about what's going on. If @janedoe said, I like you and want this but will feel more comfortable with this after I get to know you better, and the guy said oh okay, but then in his own head decided it was a red flag that she wasn't throwing herself at him and was skeptical about what she said so he just moved on instead, then that's his problem. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 6, 2020 19:53:33 GMT
ALSO I sent him the PDF and let him know I canceled the appt. THIS IS HIS RESPONSE: "Hey! Thanks for this. Will check out ASAP. Lmk if you want to watch oscars sun night. I’m hosting party. Currently it’s me, Maddie (my dog), guitar guy downstairs (this is a jk- its his horrible neighbor who makes too much noise)." Ugh. This is in the behavioral pattern. He's just reseting things, now that he got out of the therapy appointment. Please leave him, for your own mental health :/ |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 6, 2020 22:23:58 GMT
@janedoe, the book basically says people overcomplicate things for themselves, and life should be simple. Do you feel f*ck yes about something? If not, don't choose it. Don't stay on the fence and ambivalent. And only invest energy in things you actually want to prioritize instead of worrying senselessly about the rest of life which shouldn't be a priority. It also says if you're looking for a partner, you should only choose someone who is also f*ck yes about you. It's good advice for avoidants who get stuck because they're avoiding decisions, or for AP who are chasing people who are never going to show up as equal partners. But it doesn't fully address the underlying problems in a way that will ultimately change them (healing why you are prone to getting stuck). It does advocate practicing better self-acceptance and self-trust and being more comfortable with letting go, but that's only a piece of the earning secure puzzle if you think about these dynamics in terms of attachment wounding. He's also familiar with attachment, as he's written an in-depth article about it. Though it sort of brushes off FA and mostly focuses on DA and AP. I wasn't saying the guy was pressuring you (or that anyone was consciously pressuring me, my read on my guys being upset and leaving if I didn't come off as physically engaged enough was me actually noticing they were avoidant). I was just saying f*ck yes or no is great when applied to the right audience, but a woman not wanting to jump to or respond early to the physical doesn't mean she's not interested or it's a real red flag. And dhali, again, I'm not trying to get on your case. Just trying to contrast with a different perspective. I actually think it's kind of funny how you and I have such wildly different perspectives on a lot of things, but it's interesting. |
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Post by annieb on Feb 6, 2020 22:28:43 GMT
ALSO I sent him the PDF and let him know I canceled the appt. THIS IS HIS RESPONSE: "Hey! Thanks for this. Will check out ASAP. Lmk if you want to watch oscars sun night. I’m hosting party. Currently it’s me, Maddie (my dog), guitar guy downstairs (this is a jk- its his horrible neighbor who makes too much noise)." Ugh. Wow, super annoying. It sounds like he is inviting you on a date, but from everything that's transpired, I hope you pass and go to a different party. |
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Post by dhali on Feb 6, 2020 22:47:58 GMT
Dualcitizen - please read the article.Fuck yes could just mean, fuck yes, I want to go out again. But it needs to be mutual. As for kissing and more, if I'm feeling F yes about that, then there has been some flirting going on. If I get thrown a wet blanket on top of that, yes I don't think it will work. markmanson.net/fuck-yesFrom the article: "Making out with a girl at your house and every time you go to take her shirt off she swats your hands away? That is not a “Fuck Yes,” my friend, therefore, it’s a no and you shouldn’t pressure her. The best sex is “Fuck Yes” sex — i.e., both people are shouting “Fuck Yes” as they hop between the sheets together. If she’s not hopping, then there’s no fucking. (Hint Fellas: This is a great time to ask the girl why she’s not comfortable, and what she’s looking for from you. That, by itself — you know, treating her like a human and empathizing with her — often solves this “problem.”)" Notice it doesn't say to end the relationship. "Fuck Yes or No doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be falling in knee-wobbling love at first sight. It doesn’t even mean you have be completely convinced that someone is right for you. You can be “Fuck Yes” about getting to know someone better. You can be “Fuck Yes” about seeing someone again because you think there’s something there. You can be “Fuck Yes” about giving things a few months to pan out and see if you can fix the problems in the relationship. You can be “Fuck Yes” about trying to fix things in an unhappy relationship because you can see future potential. The point is: both you and the other person need to be fuck yes about something (and it must be the same thing), otherwise you’re just wasting your time." And my favorite part: "Consent issues are instantly resolved. If someone is playing games with you, playing hard to get, or pressuring you into doing something you’re unsure about, your answer is now easy. Or as I often like to say in regards to dating, “If you have to ask, then that’s your answer.”" |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 6, 2020 22:53:50 GMT
Dualcitizen - please read the article.Fuck yes could just mean, fuck yes, I want to go out again. But it needs to be mutual. As for kissing and more, if I'm feeling F yes about that, then there has been some flirting going on. If I get thrown a wet blanket on top of that, yes I don't think it will work. markmanson.net/fuck-yesFrom the article: "Making out with a girl at your house and every time you go to take her shirt off she swats your hands away? That is not a “Fuck Yes,” my friend, therefore, it’s a no and you shouldn’t pressure her. The best sex is “Fuck Yes” sex — i.e., both people are shouting “Fuck Yes” as they hop between the sheets together. If she’s not hopping, then there’s no fucking. (Hint Fellas: This is a great time to ask the girl why she’s not comfortable, and what she’s looking for from you. That, by itself — you know, treating her like a human and empathizing with her — often solves this “problem.”)" Notice it doesn't say to end the relationship. "Fuck Yes or No doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be falling in knee-wobbling love at first sight. It doesn’t even mean you have be completely convinced that someone is right for you. You can be “Fuck Yes” about getting to know someone better. You can be “Fuck Yes” about seeing someone again because you think there’s something there. You can be “Fuck Yes” about giving things a few months to pan out and see if you can fix the problems in the relationship. You can be “Fuck Yes” about trying to fix things in an unhappy relationship because you can see future potential. The point is: both you and the other person need to be fuck yes about something (and it must be the same thing), otherwise you’re just wasting your time." And my favorite part: "Consent issues are instantly resolved. If someone is playing games with you, playing hard to get, or pressuring you into doing something you’re unsure about, your answer is now easy. Or as I often like to say in regards to dating, “If you have to ask, then that’s your answer.”" No probs, must admit didn't read it, just threw the query out there. cheers |
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Post by serenity on Feb 6, 2020 23:26:39 GMT
I'm unsure how I could ever feel sincerely committal in any way towards a person I don't know. Women release oxytocin during sex, and even through touch to an extent. It creates a sense of artificial attachment, and I don't blame experienced women for avoiding it with strangers.
Men on the other hand, release testosterone during sex which reduces oxytocin. Its actually painful to attach to a man sexually and then be discarded like garbage afterwards because of this biological difference.
The way I like to date is almost impossible in this day and age. I want to know someone's character first, as a friend, preferably for longer than a few months. When I decide to date them, its because I know them and want to know more. The problem with my approach is the way a man acts in an intimate relationship can only be determined by getting intimate with them. Perhaps knowing more about their relationship history can help there..if they are honest.
Avoidants have scared the daylights out of me. This 180 degree `flip and discard you' thing, right at the peak of attachment, is the scariest and most painful thing I've ever experienced.
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Post by nyc718 on Feb 7, 2020 0:13:22 GMT
ALSO I sent him the PDF and let him know I canceled the appt. THIS IS HIS RESPONSE: "Hey! Thanks for this. Will check out ASAP. Lmk if you want to watch oscars sun night. I’m hosting party. Currently it’s me, Maddie (my dog), guitar guy downstairs (this is a jk- its his horrible neighbor who makes too much noise)." Ugh. I wouldn't even reply, like ever again. How insulting on so many levels. |
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Post by amber on Feb 7, 2020 2:37:26 GMT
I don’t necessarily agree with the fuck yes thing. I was friends with my first boyfriend for six months, it wasn’t a fuck yes until we got together, and even then I was a bit unsure. This is because I had major walls up to protect myself from hurt and wouldn’t let anyone in, with the exception of avoidants who triggered me anxious then I felt a fuck yes. So it’s not that black and white. Some people with attachment injuries live in an almost constant state of ambivalence and never feel a fuck yes, or feel a fuck yes in honeymoon phase that becomes a “fuck no” or a “fuck I don’t know” over time as intimacy increases and they get more and more triggered.
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Post by amber on Feb 7, 2020 2:53:09 GMT
Ha ha. Fuck yes until you trigger my mother wounds and then I throw you out like an old banana skin
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Post by alexandra on Feb 7, 2020 3:00:18 GMT
Ha ha. Fuck yes until you trigger my mother wounds and then I throw you out like an old banana skin Or f*ck yes because you triggered my wounds the moment we met! |
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Post by dhali on Feb 7, 2020 3:32:39 GMT
I don’t necessarily agree with the fuck yes thing. I was friends with my first boyfriend for six months, it wasn’t a fuck yes until we got together, and even then I was a bit unsure. This is because I had major walls up to protect myself from hurt and wouldn’t let anyone in, with the exception of avoidants who triggered me anxious then I felt a fuck yes. So it’s not that black and white. Some people with attachment injuries live in an almost constant state of ambivalence and never feel a fuck yes, or feel a fuck yes in honeymoon phase that becomes a “fuck no” or a “fuck I don’t know” over time as intimacy increases and they get more and more triggered. Good post. 3 things: - you mention the first boyfriend. Your not currently with your first bf, was that a secure/secure pairing? If not, you’re using an insecure attachment as evidence against the philosophy. - really? You’re going to feel a mutual fuck yes and not proceed? Really? That’s tough to buy. Dopamine is a strong motivator. Once the flirting starts and gets going.... I just don’t see attachment type getting considered here. - if both parties are practicing fuck yes or no, with insecure connections, you’ll get to a no sooner rather than later. Isn’t that a good thing? These aren’t healthy relationships. Nothing wrong with some mutual fuck yes-ing going on. Ok a fourth thing  - the insecure who never feels a fuck yes because of ambivalence . Should they be in a relationship? Could it be healthy? The other thing to note, is the philosophy is not hormone based. You are allowed to define the parameters of what you’re yes or no about. Am I f-yes about starting a relationship with a person I think might be ambivalent? No. That’s not a hormone question. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2020 5:06:53 GMT
- really? You’re going to feel a mutual fuck yes and not proceed? Really? That’s tough to buy. Dopamine is a strong motivator. Once the flirting starts and gets going.... I just don’t see attachment type getting considered here. Yes, I'm proof of this. It's why I was a red flag. He knew I felt strongly but still resisted. I make logical decisions. They're not always easy because yes those chemicals are strong, but I've done it many times. MM. yes, in my current dating, i didn't care if I felt a fuck yes because that was proven a poor indicator or predictor of the relationship I desire to have, particularly because fuck yeses were generally triggered by avoidants. I only cared if it was a fuck no - then I cut it off immediately. I also shut down strong physical desires in the sense that I take note of how I felt about this person, but don't take too much note of it as a motivator. Hence, I don't bother too much with flirting the way i did before (more sexual, open, welcoming) because i think it confounds the compatibility assessment; i do it for fun only. having sex with my current partner was an action that was not borne out of lust and attraction, it was a choice to get involved with him more deeply after I have seen how he is/deals with other more important things that I now place as necessary conditions. of course, during the dating period, there was physical intimacy to assess if there was attraction and some level of compatibility, but sex was really delayed till we really wanted to be together and that was our final step to commitment. for sure there are many many men who think this is a red flag - that I'm holding off intimacy and choosing to act on it consciously and fully willingly that is not motivated by physical desire. men think that it's a sign i'm frigid or think that they cannot assess compatibility without it. that's fine by me, I totally understand their need to assess me in their own ways. it also tells me, he's assessing physical compatibility first before others, which is completely fine, but not how I wish my relationships will be. I was not sure about my current partner either, like amber. I didn't have a "fuck no" so i was open to the possibility, and choosing to do a relationship with him was a conscious, deliberate, thoughtful decision that had nothing to do with hormones. All I knew is that when i'm with him, I'm calm and i could be more or less myself - no nos, no yeses; just quiet. i definitely was interested in giving it a go since it was so different from other relationships I've had, so I think there're different meaning/levels to fuck yes, and relationships can evolve differently and from various points. |
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Post by amber on Feb 7, 2020 6:40:25 GMT
I don’t necessarily agree with the fuck yes thing. I was friends with my first boyfriend for six months, it wasn’t a fuck yes until we got together, and even then I was a bit unsure. This is because I had major walls up to protect myself from hurt and wouldn’t let anyone in, with the exception of avoidants who triggered me anxious then I felt a fuck yes. So it’s not that black and white. Some people with attachment injuries live in an almost constant state of ambivalence and never feel a fuck yes, or feel a fuck yes in honeymoon phase that becomes a “fuck no” or a “fuck I don’t know” over time as intimacy increases and they get more and more triggered. Good post. 3 things: - you mention the first boyfriend. Your not currently with your first bf, was that a secure/secure pairing? If not, you’re using an insecure attachment as evidence against the philosophy. - really? You’re going to feel a mutual fuck yes and not proceed? Really? That’s tough to buy. Dopamine is a strong motivator. Once the flirting starts and gets going.... I just don’t see attachment type getting considered here. - if both parties are practicing fuck yes or no, with insecure connections, you’ll get to a no sooner rather than later. Isn’t that a good thing? These aren’t healthy relationships. Nothing wrong with some mutual fuck yes-ing going on. Ok a fourth thing - the insecure who never feels a fuck yes because of ambivalence . Should they be in a relationship? Could it be healthy? The other thing to note, is the philosophy is not hormone based. You are allowed to define the parameters of what you’re yes or no about. Am I f-yes about starting a relationship with a person I think might be ambivalent? No. That’s not a hormone question. no, I was not secure with my first BF. strangely enough we were both AP! but are we arguing here that the fuck yes can only be applied to secure people?? I think many people, both secure and non secure, have developed feelings for someone over time; started off as friends for example and then as they get to know the person, they begin to fall for them. so it doesn't have to be a strong fuck yes from the get go. I know many long term r/ships that began like this. so if these people were to walk away at the start if there wasn't a fuck yes immedietely, they may never have given their partner a chance. I agree that with a strong fuck yes its hard walk away if you see red flags for example; but since my recent experience with my ex and the pain that caused, and now knowing about attachment, I'm going to proceed with great caution regarding strong fuck yeses. your fourth question.... I don't know, can they?? ive never been in a long term r/ship where I'm ambivalent, I'm always two feet in, so I can't relate. in fairness to the other person maybe they shouldn't be in a r/ship until they sort their shit out enough to be more certain. |
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Post by amber on Feb 7, 2020 6:49:27 GMT
Yes, I'm proof of this. It's why I was a red flag. He knew I felt strongly but still resisted. I make logical decisions. They're not always easy because yes those chemicals are strong, but I've done it many times. MM. yes, in my current dating, i didn't care if I felt a fuck yes because that was proven a poor indicator or predictor of the relationship I desire to have, particularly because fuck yeses were generally triggered by avoidants. I only cared if it was a fuck no - then I cut it off immediately. I also shut down strong physical desires in the sense that I take note of how I felt about this person, but don't take too much note of it as a motivator. Hence, I don't bother too much with flirting the way i did before (more sexual, open, welcoming) because i think it confounds the compatibility assessment; i do it for fun only. having sex with my current partner was an action that was not borne out of lust and attraction, it was a choice to get involved with him more deeply after I have seen how he is/deals with other more important things that I now place as necessary conditions. of course, during the dating period, there was physical intimacy to assess if there was attraction and some level of compatibility, but sex was really delayed till we really wanted to be together and that was our final step to commitment. for sure there are many many men who think this is a red flag - that I'm holding off intimacy and choosing to act on it consciously and fully willingly that is not motivated by physical desire. men think that it's a sign i'm frigid or think that they cannot assess compatibility without it. that's fine by me, I totally understand their need to assess me in their own ways. it also tells me, he's assessing physical compatibility first before others, which is completely fine, but not how I wish my relationships will be. I was not sure about my current partner either, like amber. I didn't have a "fuck no" so i was open to the possibility, and choosing to do a relationship with him was a conscious, deliberate, thoughtful decision that had nothing to do with hormones. All I knew is that when i'm with him, I'm calm and i could be more or less myself - no nos, no yeses; just quiet. i definitely was interested in giving it a go since it was so different from other relationships I've had, so I think there're different meaning/levels to fuck yes, and relationships can evolve differently and from various points. I love this post!! This is how I would like to proceed with future relationships, as I have always just acted on a whim based on strong attraction in the past.my recent ex FA was incredibly handsome and I have to admit it was a strong driver in keeping me with him, amongst other things of course. But had he been a lot less physically attentive I do wonder if it would have been easier to walk away. Gosh sounds so vein. I think a lot of people just jump into r/ships based on attraction, which as we know is often just your attachment system being activated; or the chemistry based on old wounding. So not an indicator to dive into a r/ship, even if it is a strong yes. I would like to be more logical in my decision making going forward, but we are mostly autonomically emotionally driven creatures. I plan to take a year off men and dating and work on becoming secure, I have a solid plan in place based on some serious research about changing attachment styles. I agree that feeling calm with a potential partner rather than massive sexual chemistry and butterfly’s/longing is a good sign, as long as there is compatibility and some level of attraction. I beleive with my recent ex i prioristed getting my immediate little girl needs met (touch, affection, compliments) over adult needs like commitment, reliability, loyalty etc |
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