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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 6, 2020 4:03:10 GMT
Janedoe, what would you see as "challenging" language/actions that may spur you on? Your genuine thoughts and feelings that call me out on my bullshit. Not in a mean or controlling way. But in an honest way. It HAS been done in a way that was right, for me. I respected it. Edit: Just an FYI...I called out my FA after a few weeks of his distancing and me expressing this was painful to me. It didn't go over well. He hung up on me and blocked me. I wasn't mean at all but expressed genuine frustration. So, to each his own. Yep fair enough, and well what can you do but be mindful and direct with no BS? And be honest? Can only do what ya can do hey. Yeah I suspect the way isn't "pointing the finger" and in person aggressive tone of voice etc, very hard over text to convey centred language. But you can still "third party" up the language I feel, and literally say, hey this is what I observed, this is what you said, give the example and what happened and actually ask what the other person thinks of what was said is my modus operandi. What about a question something like:- "Do you think you've actually noticed any patterns in your relationships that are interesting"? (hijacked this thread by the way, at least the OP can garner some language for her guy potentially, which is partially why i'm asking this in here for her to see language with an avoidant) |
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Post by mrob on Feb 6, 2020 4:16:58 GMT
mrob If someone is going through pain, pointing out a resource I think is okay. But continual support can be enabling (definitely NOT challenging). Of course, there is the control aspect of someone trying to be a therapist, but also, therapists are boring. And temporary. Does anyone ever want to grab a beer with their therapist and talk out their issues? No. It's a necessary evil. It's not something you really want to do. I actually thought my therapist was a fascinating bloke. You’re right about support, but I think it depends on the motivation. Am I motivated by getting this person to do what I want? If so, that’s covert manipulation, and as an FA I can smell that a mile off. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 6, 2020 4:20:21 GMT
What about a question something like:- "Do you think you've actually noticed any patterns in your relationships that are interesting"? (hijacked this thread by the way, at least the OP can garner some language for her guy potentially, which is partially why i'm asking this in here for her to see language with an avoidant) Nope. Don't do that. You are directing/leading them indirectly. I had a guy direct me like this once in a relationship and it was maddening. If you're going to bring it up..."I found some information that sounds like stuff you've dealt with. Since you've expressed pain over it, maybe it would be useful to you." That is the best way I can think of. So this is what Brianna McWilliam (youtube) suggests to do with a D-A or F-A, something along these lines:- "So how do you think other people receive you?" or "What are your desires about how you want to be received by another?", which is similar to what I asked above really, only maybe with a slight twist. I feel it's subversive in nature, and personally would rather be direct as you pointed out. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 6, 2020 4:24:01 GMT
What about a question something like:- "Do you think you've actually noticed any patterns in your relationships that are interesting"? (hijacked this thread by the way, at least the OP can garner some language for her guy potentially, which is partially why i'm asking this in here for her to see language with an avoidant) Nope. Don't do that. You are directing/leading them indirectly. I had a guy direct me like this once in a relationship and it was maddening. If you're going to bring it up..."I found some information that sounds like stuff you've dealt with. Since you've expressed pain over it, maybe it would be useful to you." That is the best way I can think of. In regards to bringing up something about attachment, the only time I felt heard in a romantic situation, it's because I said something similar to this. But while I got through, it didn't change anything or encourage him to do any work on it. He brought it up himself and said he would a month later, but it was empty. Maybe one day he'll get back to it, but I wouldn't know at this point or expect it. |
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Post by mrob on Feb 6, 2020 4:26:31 GMT
Mine came at a vulnerable point in her circular thinking. The opening appeared and she came back later that night after I left and messaged “yes, I do x, y and z to avoid a and b”. What she does with that is anybody’s guess. I’ve mentioned living in patterns when people watching, too. It has just come naturally. At the end of the day, I can’t be attached to how she lives her life. How she lives and what she does with her life is actually none of my business. I decide each day whether I like her company, and I assume she does the same.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 6, 2020 4:34:58 GMT
So this is what Brianna McWilliam (youtube) suggests to do with a D-A or F-A, something along these lines:- "So how do you think other people receive you?" or "What are your desires about how you want to be received by another?", which is similar to what I asked above really, only maybe with a slight twist. I feel it's subversive in nature, and personally would rather be direct as you pointed out. Subversive. Good word. It's leading. Would not work on me. I actually said to her on her Youtube channel, "we're all adults" regardless, and I would have thought it's better to be just direct in nature, of course in a mindful way still, not aggressive etc. she says it would push a F-A further away, continues the same patterning, which indeed it may, like when you called your ex. out, and he blocked. It is what it is imao. You can only be honest, truthful and true to yourself, and from a truly unconditional loving perspective, no manipulation. And if they did actually move on it, be supportive and uplifting on their efforts as far as i'm concerned. |
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Post by dhali on Feb 6, 2020 5:31:27 GMT
Oh boy. I find anything that isn't validating to be a recipe for failure. You can't validate someone if they don't bring it up. What you can do is talk about your narrative that is going on in your head and ask for feedback.
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Post by nyc718 on Feb 7, 2020 15:18:07 GMT
If someone hypothetically a more secure person was there for you, consistent, displaying humour, social intelligence, being totally mindful and communicating trying to aid you and understanding the mechanics around your inner working, not judging you but just talking about such things and past experiences (they told you all about their life in detail truthfully and honestly, how events effected them in their own life), communicating to you they want you to tell them if they are upsetting you/overstepping boundaries, asking how they could help you. Would that open you up over time you think? For you to be honest perhaps with them, and work on yourself with that person as support confronting old hurts/pain with a therapist/trauma therapist in particular? I see this question often. I think you're missing a key part of FAs here. mrob once said he didn't want anyone trying to understand his inner workings (maybe unless he revealed them). Also, to an FA, someone consistent and trying to understand you and not judge you is boring and not very attractive. For myself, when someone just does whatever I want without challenging me and tip toes around, I have zero interest. On the flip side, I won't be controlled. It's impossible really. So is this the same as saying FAs really just are subconsciously comfortable and drawn to drama? But then gets annoyed or otherwise defensive when things get dramatic? Because I saw that in the past, and yes, I felt like it was truly no winning for me and time to walk. Way too confusing and trying to have it both ways. |
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Post by dhali on Feb 8, 2020 20:35:11 GMT
It’s not addicted to drama. It’s not knowing how to deal with feeling gaslighted. As if your perspective matters. The childhood trauma is so that you can’t figure out what is real and what is not. Basically it’s living a life of not feeling validated. So when you invalidate an FA’s feelings, it’s a huge trigger. Whether their feelings are rational or not. I wouldn’t call that addicted to drama, but I would call it high touch. And no, there is no winning, other than validating their feelings. All the time. Even when they don’t tell you their feelings. They are living a life on Mars where no one gets them. At least that’s me.
There is work to solve all this, and sometimes it feels like 2 steps forward, 1 back, but it takes work. It’s more about liberating your mind vs transforming it.
It turns out persistent gaslighting of children fucks them up, and they unknowingly traumatize others as a result of trying to own their truth. And not interested in what others want to trick you into believing.
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Post by amber on Feb 8, 2020 21:05:03 GMT
It’s not addicted to drama. It’s not knowing how to deal with feeling gaslighted. As if your perspective matters. The childhood trauma is so that you can’t figure out what is real and what is not. Basically it’s living a life of not feeling validated. So when you invalidate an FA’s feelings, it’s a huge trigger. Whether their feelings are rational or not. I wouldn’t call that addicted to drama, but I would call it high touch. And no, there is no winning, other than validating their feelings. All the time. Even when they don’t tell you their feelings. They are living a life on Mars where no one gets them. At least that’s me. There is work to solve all this, and sometimes it feels like 2 steps forward, 1 back, but it takes work. It’s more about liberating your mind vs transforming it. It turns out persistent gaslighting of children fucks them up, and they unknowingly traumatize others as a result of trying to own their truth. And not interested in what others want to trick you into believing. This is an interesting concept to me...because I couldn’t personally be in a relationship with someone who I could never challenge due to always having to validate their feelings. Although I agree it’s important to listen to,acknowledge and respect how someone feels, I would hate to be with a partner where I could never challenge or offer another perspective. To me this could cause stuckness and an inability to grow. For example when my ex told me he didn’t feel a strong enough connection to me, I acknowledged he genuinely felt this way but I told him I believed he was scared of closeness and getting hurt and he pushes people away. Is this invalidating feelings? Should I just have bit my tongue and said nothing about what I felt was true? This may be a sore spot for me as I had a BPD mother who literally would fly off the handle if you disagreed with any way she felt, stating that “you are not empathising with me”...she manipulated me into validating every little thing she felt through making out as if me and my sister were not showing compassion if we didn’t. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 8, 2020 23:34:20 GMT
It’s not addicted to drama. It’s not knowing how to deal with feeling gaslighted. As if your perspective matters. The childhood trauma is so that you can’t figure out what is real and what is not. Basically it’s living a life of not feeling validated. So when you invalidate an FA’s feelings, it’s a huge trigger. Whether their feelings are rational or not. I wouldn’t call that addicted to drama, but I would call it high touch. And no, there is no winning, other than validating their feelings. All the time. Even when they don’t tell you their feelings. They are living a life on Mars where no one gets them. At least that’s me. There is work to solve all this, and sometimes it feels like 2 steps forward, 1 back, but it takes work. It’s more about liberating your mind vs transforming it. It turns out persistent gaslighting of children fucks them up, and they unknowingly traumatize others as a result of trying to own their truth. And not interested in what others want to trick you into believing. This is an interesting concept to me...because I couldn’t personally be in a relationship with someone who I could never challenge due to always having to validate their feelings. Although I agree it’s important to listen to,acknowledge and respect how someone feels, I would hate to be with a partner where I could never challenge or offer another perspective. To me this could cause stuckness and an inability to grow. For example when my ex told me he didn’t feel a strong enough connection to me, I acknowledged he genuinely felt this way but I told him I believed he was scared of closeness and getting hurt and he pushes people away. Is this invalidating feelings? Should I just have bit my tongue and said nothing about what I felt was true? This may be a sore spot for me as I had a BPD mother who literally would fly off the handle if you disagreed with any way she felt, stating that “you are not empathising with me”...she manipulated me into validating every little thing she felt through making out as if me and my sister were not showing compassion if we didn’t. You're right, this is part of the self love and boundaries that are scrambled. No self love = no ability to self reflect and own behaviour, and try and limit similar "mistakes", and you cannot accept another's true unconditional love, it will be questioned due to lack of trust in oneself. There is no owning up to responsibility of actions, unless of course there is an awakening, in which case, old habits die hard! Big respect to all in here learning and trying hard, because it is hard. |
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Post by mrob on Feb 9, 2020 2:23:38 GMT
The only things to give truly unconditional love are dogs. Sooner or later, humans become transactional.
Also, self reflection has come in the most bankrupt times in my life. Where there was no self love. Where there was no alternative but to look inside. So that theory doesn’t hold water.
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Post by dhali on Feb 9, 2020 2:41:47 GMT
Amber- no one said someone else’s perspective can’t be given. who said anything about not being able to challenge? Validating doesn’t mean conceding. And you can be upset and angry about it until the cows come home, but you also don’t see things through the lens of living your life being gaslit.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 9, 2020 2:46:19 GMT
It’s not addicted to drama. It’s not knowing how to deal with feeling gaslighted. As if your perspective matters. The childhood trauma is so that you can’t figure out what is real and what is not. Basically it’s living a life of not feeling validated. So when you invalidate an FA’s feelings, it’s a huge trigger. Whether their feelings are rational or not. I wouldn’t call that addicted to drama, but I would call it high touch. And no, there is no winning, other than validating their feelings. All the time. Even when they don’t tell you their feelings. They are living a life on Mars where no one gets them. At least that’s me. There is work to solve all this, and sometimes it feels like 2 steps forward, 1 back, but it takes work. It’s more about liberating your mind vs transforming it. It turns out persistent gaslighting of children fucks them up, and they unknowingly traumatize others as a result of trying to own their truth. And not interested in what others want to trick you into believing. Check this video out: www.youtube.com/watch?v=gASS4rv8n1gShe explains hypoarousal, a numbed out state, along with hyperarousal. It sort of links to an F-A and that feeling of being bored? Or "Just not feeling it". Does that match you think? |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 9, 2020 3:20:26 GMT
The only things to give truly unconditional love are dogs. Sooner or later, humans become transactional. Also, self reflection has come in the most bankrupt times in my life. Where there was no self love. Where there was no alternative but to look inside. So that theory doesn’t hold water. - This is exactly why I bought two pups after my ex broke up with me before. It was nice to have my love and affection accepted...unconditionally. It was even worth all the potty training! 🙂🐾🐾 |
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