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Post by amber on Feb 9, 2020 9:40:35 GMT
Amber- no one said someone else’s perspective can’t be given. who said anything about not being able to challenge? Validating doesn’t mean conceding. And you can be upset and angry about it until the cows come home, but you also don’t see things through the lens of living your life being gaslit. Ok, I’m keen to know more. What would it feel like for you to be invalidated as opposed to challenged; in a situation where, let’s just say for example, you tell a partner you are uncertain about them, or are deactivating in some way/withdrawing, and the partner tells you they understand what you are feeling but beleive there may be deeper issues going on, such as old wounds/childhood stuff etc. would this feel invalidating to you?i totally get as well it’s about the delivery,tone,intention, etc,not merely just the words said. Also, I understand how gaslighting feels very well; my mother gaslit me constantly in my childhood. She would be violent and then try to twist it around to make out it didn’t happen or that it was “an accident”. So I get how invalidating it feels when your sense of reality is undermined |
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Post by dhali on Feb 9, 2020 15:38:30 GMT
Impossible to answer. You’re picking a specific instance of deactivating. And in your instance, you’re telling me what I feel. That’s obnoxious. For anyone. And def invalidating. I do not find that a healthy challenge for anyone, much less an fa. I’d never tell anyone what they were feeling. And knowing what you know, if you’re in a situation where you have a da or fa deactivating, why are you hanging around? You know the relationship is doomed.
What I am referencing is a typical fight. Not an actual breakup/deactivation. If you come in guns blazing and don’t at least try to see my point of view. Yeah, it won’t be good.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 9, 2020 20:02:21 GMT
Amber- no one said someone else’s perspective can’t be given. who said anything about not being able to challenge? Validating doesn’t mean conceding. And you can be upset and angry about it until the cows come home, but you also don’t see things through the lens of living your life being gaslit. Ok, I’m keen to know more. What would it feel like for you to be invalidated as opposed to challenged; in a situation where, let’s just say for example, you tell a partner you are uncertain about them, or are deactivating in some way/withdrawing, and the partner tells you they understand what you are feeling but beleive there may be deeper issues going on, such as old wounds/childhood stuff etc. would this feel invalidating to you?i totally get as well it’s about the delivery,tone,intention, etc,not merely just the words said. Also, I understand how gaslighting feels very well; my mother gaslit me constantly in my childhood. She would be violent and then try to twist it around to make out it didn’t happen or that it was “an accident”. So I get how invalidating it feels when your sense of reality is undermined This is a great question actually, problem is though watching like Crappy Childhood Fairy, Richard Grannon etc on CPTSD, unless the F-A writes down consistently in a diary what is happening, and also be mindful of a "flashback", probably wont be able to tell specifically? It'd be damn hard as it's all suppressed from long ago without potentially any direct memories/links to current event that is triggering along with the deactivation? |
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Post by amber on Feb 9, 2020 20:18:47 GMT
Impossible to answer. You’re picking a specific instance of deactivating. And in your instance, you’re telling me what I feel. That’s obnoxious. For anyone. And def invalidating. I do not find that a healthy challenge for anyone, much less an fa. I’d never tell anyone what they were feeling. And knowing what you know, if you’re in a situation where you have a da or fa deactivating, why are you hanging around? You know the relationship is doomed. What I am referencing is a typical fight. Not an actual breakup/deactivation. If you come in guns blazing and don’t at least try to see my point of view. Yeah, it won’t be good. Thanks for clarifying Dhali. I do need to be aware of this within myself, and I recognise that sometimes I want to try to get someone to see things differently because that’s what I did with my father (wanted him to be a better dad for me). I do think though that it’s the way you communicate something, ie “I beleive/feel there may be childhood wounds playing out here; as opposed to “you are playing out childhood wounds”... I think it is a case by case basis too. What one person finds invalidating another may not, depending on their history. But I was referring more to deactivation/breakup rather than just a fight.if it was a fight I wouldn’t necessarily tackle it the same way, especially when emotions are high |
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Post by dhali on Feb 9, 2020 20:23:47 GMT
I’d still take umbridge. It presumes you know my experience better than I do. It would feel as if my vulnerabilities are being used against me. Don’t presume to know what’s wrong with me better than I do. It’s belittling. yes, I would definitely take offense to it no matter how it’s phrased. This is exactly why it’s about self discovery and you can’t tell people what’s wrong with them unless they ask for the feedback.
The best Way I’ve been handled and brought back to reality was by a girlfriend who I was only sorta into. She triggered me to deactivate once, and saw my irrationally, and just called me on my bullshit. And said, and this was the key - don’t self sabatoge. Which put me in the frame of mind where I could consider that possibility vs going lizard brain.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 2:46:34 GMT
I’d still take umbridge. It presumes you know my experience better than I do. It would feel as if my vulnerabilities are being used against me. Don’t presume to know what’s wrong with me better than I do. It’s belittling. yes, I would definitely take offense to it no matter how it’s phrased. This is exactly why it’s about self discovery and you can’t tell people what’s wrong with them unless they ask for the feedback. The best Way I’ve been handled and brought back to reality was by a girlfriend who I was only sorta into. She triggered me to deactivate once, and saw my irrationally, and just called me on my bullshit. And said, and this was the key - don’t self sabatoge. Which put me in the frame of mind where I could consider that possibility vs going lizard brain. hang on, I got abit confused there! so this lady called you out on your bs, but you didnt ask for her input? and that was offensive although it worked to bring to your attention a different perspective? |
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Post by dhali on Feb 10, 2020 2:51:44 GMT
No that was the one example of bringing me back to not disengage. She started with the telling me that I was self sabotaging and then called out my bs(none of which presumed to know anything about my internals- just my words/actions), which I was then forced to consider because I was considering that I was self sabotaging. So I didn’t disengage at that time and had to consider her perspective. I remember learning, that night, about how much bs I flung around my whole life, and I was glad she shined the light on it (that was an internal thought). But it started by telling me she saw me self sabotaging. Before that moment, I had never even considered that possibility because of my righteousness (which I have to be because my perspective doesn’t matter in life to others- see narc father). There was nothing offensive about her doing this. What Would have been offensive is telling me how I feel and what I’m going through. And should be for anyone, imo. She didn’t do that.
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Post by nyc718 on Feb 11, 2020 0:34:07 GMT
No that was the one example of bringing me back to not disengage. She started with the telling me that I was self sabotaging and then called out my bs(none of which presumed to know anything about my internals- just my words/actions), which I was then forced to consider because I was considering that I was self sabotaging. So I didn’t disengage at that time and had to consider her perspective. I remember learning, that night, about how much bs I flung around my whole life, and I was glad she shined the light on it (that was an internal thought). But it started by telling me she saw me self sabotaging. Before that moment, I had never even considered that possibility because of my righteousness (which I have to be because my perspective doesn’t matter in life to others- see narc father). There was nothing offensive about her doing this. What Would have been offensive is telling me how I feel and what I’m going through. And should be for anyone, imo. She didn’t do that. I'm not sure if this qualifies telling someone how they feel, but my friend's BF broke up with her again because he couldn't handle everything going on in his life right now, she deserves someone who can be 100% present, someone who can give her what she deserves yada yada. She accepted that, as heartbroken as she was. Within an hour he was calling her, telling her he loved her, then flip flopping on breaking up and she said ENOUGH. She told him he is triggered, and every time he gets triggered he takes it out on her and their relationship and enough is enough. Either he gets help and fights for their relationship or go away and don't come back, she's had enough of the emotional distancing, the vagueness in communication, the lack of response from his part, and this breaking up with her only to freak out and try to reason it all out with her. And imo, she was spot on in everything she told him about himself, and he owned up to it as well, he had no choice. There wasn't one thing she said that wasn't true. Any way, I agree telling someone just out of the blue who/what they are is never called for, but in this case, I think her perspective of telling him exactly what was going in with him since he didn't seem to be able to know himself what was going on was the right call on her part. And she is not holding on to any hope, she's a sensible girl. She put a boundary on him of from now on, actions that meets the words or else. There will be no more unclear or vague communication. If he can't be transparent and clear, then he needs to walk away and do.not.come.back. I admire her moxie. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 11, 2020 1:14:48 GMT
nyc718, also in both your example and dhali 's, it was someone they were either still in a relationship with or the presumed FA came back to initiate a conversation. I think that's very different than reaching out to someone after a solid and bad breakup just to tell them, especially if that's driven by anxiety-relief motives (must fix / reconnect).
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Post by nyc718 on Feb 11, 2020 2:00:51 GMT
nyc718 , also in both your example and dhali 's, it was someone they were either still in a relationship with or the presumed FA came back to initiate a conversation. I think that's very different than reaching out to someone after a solid and bad breakup just to tell them, especially if that's driven by anxiety-relief motives (must fix / reconnect). Right, but he didn't exactly "ask for feedback" about himself as dhali said, more like he was trying to rationalize his decisions, but she sure gave him the feedback regardless because she needed to get it off her chest no matter what the outcome. So far he appears receptive, but again, she's not holding on to hope. She wants actions. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 11, 2020 2:34:48 GMT
nyc718 , also in both your example and dhali 's, it was someone they were either still in a relationship with or the presumed FA came back to initiate a conversation. I think that's very different than reaching out to someone after a solid and bad breakup just to tell them, especially if that's driven by anxiety-relief motives (must fix / reconnect). Right, but he didn't exactly "ask for feedback" about himself as dhali said, more like he was trying to rationalize his decisions, but she sure gave him the feedback regardless because she needed to get it off her chest no matter what the outcome. So far he appears receptive, but again, she's not holding on to hope. She wants actions. Sometimes in life, s**t just needs to be said. Bit like me and my ex. I couldn't sit idly by anymore. She knows I care about her. Might not make it perfectly right in terms of psychology, but she is an adult as well. I personally with a stranger wouldnt like feedback like that, but if its someone ive known for years, I respect them, and they generally treat me well, I accept criticism of my own behaviour and take it onboard. Like if I had been dating someone for 3 months, and someone said that, i can understand that someone would feel upset, particularly if trust/respect isn't fully there, and the delivery of aforesaid information becomes very critical, it is anytime, but particularly if a newish person in your life says it. Only thing I can see from an insecure attachment perspective, due to all of this stuff being subconscious, it maybe taken as a further attack as per prior trauma. Sadly  |
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Post by amber on Feb 11, 2020 2:55:12 GMT
Right, but he didn't exactly "ask for feedback" about himself as dhali said, more like he was trying to rationalize his decisions, but she sure gave him the feedback regardless because she needed to get it off her chest no matter what the outcome. So far he appears receptive, but again, she's not holding on to hope. She wants actions. Sometimes in life, s**t just needs to be said. Bit like me and my ex. I couldn't sit idly by anymore. She knows I care about her. Might not make it perfectly right in terms of psychology, but she is an adult as well. I personally with a stranger wouldnt like feedback like that, but if its someone ive known for years, I respect them, and they generally treat me well, I accept criticism of my own behaviour and take it onboard. Like if I had been dating someone for 3 months, and someone said that, i can understand that someone would feel upset, particularly if trust/respect isn't fully there, and the delivery of aforesaid information becomes very critical, it is anytime, but particularly if a newish person in your life says it. Only thing I can see from an insecure attachment perspective, due to all of this stuff being subconscious, it maybe taken as a further attack as per prior trauma. Sadly Whether consciously or not, we all invalidate others in r/ship form time to time. That’s why arguments occur generally speaking! Because people feel misunderstood, not heard, criticised; AKA invalidated. Sure, you can work on it, but it’s part of being human, and none of us are perfect all the time. I personally encourage and take on feedback about my shortcomings from friends and partners, because it helps me grow, and we all have blind spots. There’s a difference between blatantly telling someone “ you don’t feel that, you feel XYZ as opposed to someone saying what NYC said in her example of her friend. I agree with dual citizen, sometimes shit just needs to be said. I remember listening to a podcast Alexandra sent me from Jason Gaddis who runs the r/ship school, he kept sabotaging and running from all his r/ships with women until he became aware; say he secretly wished the women had of called him out on his bullshit. He felt like the women were too scared to call him on his shit and it helped enable him to stay stuck in his patterns. Just a different perspective. |
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Post by nyc718 on Feb 11, 2020 3:10:25 GMT
Right, but he didn't exactly "ask for feedback" about himself as dhali said, more like he was trying to rationalize his decisions, but she sure gave him the feedback regardless because she needed to get it off her chest no matter what the outcome. So far he appears receptive, but again, she's not holding on to hope. She wants actions. Sometimes in life, s**t just needs to be said. Bit like me and my ex. I couldn't sit idly by anymore. She knows I care about her. Might not make it perfectly right in terms of psychology, but she is an adult as well. I personally with a stranger wouldnt like feedback like that, but if its someone ive known for years, I respect them, and they generally treat me well, I accept criticism of my own behaviour and take it onboard. Like if I had been dating someone for 3 months, and someone said that, i can understand that someone would feel upset, particularly if trust/respect isn't fully there, and the delivery of aforesaid information becomes very critical, it is anytime, but particularly if a newish person in your life says it. Only thing I can see from an insecure attachment perspective, due to all of this stuff being subconscious, it maybe taken as a further attack as per prior trauma. Sadly I think he understood she wasn't attacking him more than clarifying for him that his anxiety was misplaced, and that whatever anxiety he was feeling wasn't because of her or their relationship as he kept trying to make it seem, only then to come running back to her and be afraid of losing her when he just pushed her away! I mean, if anything, she's the one who is starting to feel traumatized by this kind of behavior. I think he needed to hear it, and I know he knows that she isn't someone trying to harm him, at least on a conscious level he knows that. Whether he decides to go learn the inner workings is up to him, but she told him and that's that. She said she feels relieved that she said everything she wanted to, and now the ball is in his court. She is going to continue working on herself, and she said she will not allow him to call her out of anxiety because that's not setting good boundaries nor does it make for a healthy relationship, and she's done with all that. She said it's either a new chapter or nothing at all. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 11, 2020 3:16:42 GMT
Sometimes in life, s**t just needs to be said. Bit like me and my ex. I couldn't sit idly by anymore. She knows I care about her. Might not make it perfectly right in terms of psychology, but she is an adult as well. I personally with a stranger wouldnt like feedback like that, but if its someone ive known for years, I respect them, and they generally treat me well, I accept criticism of my own behaviour and take it onboard. Like if I had been dating someone for 3 months, and someone said that, i can understand that someone would feel upset, particularly if trust/respect isn't fully there, and the delivery of aforesaid information becomes very critical, it is anytime, but particularly if a newish person in your life says it. Only thing I can see from an insecure attachment perspective, due to all of this stuff being subconscious, it maybe taken as a further attack as per prior trauma. Sadly I think he understood she wasn't attacking him more than clarifying for him that his anxiety was misplaced, and that whatever anxiety he was feeling wasn't because of her or their relationship as he kept trying to make it seem, only then to come running back to her and be afraid of losing her when he just pushed her away! I mean, if anything, she's the one who is starting to feel traumatized by this kind of behavior. I think he needed to hear it, and I know he knows that she isn't someone trying to harm him, at least on a conscious level he knows that. Whether he decides to go learn the inner workings is up to him, but she told him and that's that. She said she feels relieved that she said everything she wanted to, and now the ball is in his court. She is going to continue working on herself, and she said she will not allow him to call her out of anxiety because that's not setting good boundaries nor does it make for a healthy relationship, and she's done with all that. She said it's either a new chapter or nothing at all. The last bit is pertinent, she literally is boundary setting. So....the ball is literally in his court. He has two choices, work on it and save the relationship or slip into the similarity and rinse and repeat. As it's not going to change or get better with anyone else. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 11, 2020 4:11:39 GMT
nyc718 , also in both your example and dhali 's, it was someone they were either still in a relationship with or the presumed FA came back to initiate a conversation. I think that's very different than reaching out to someone after a solid and bad breakup just to tell them, especially if that's driven by anxiety-relief motives (must fix / reconnect). Right, but he didn't exactly "ask for feedback" about himself as dhali said, more like he was trying to rationalize his decisions, but she sure gave him the feedback regardless because she needed to get it off her chest no matter what the outcome. So far he appears receptive, but again, she's not holding on to hope. She wants actions. Exactly. But he wanted to engage (she didn't go to him to get this off her chest) and she was sharing her boundary and had no attachment to the outcome, so that's a healthy conversation. |
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