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Post by annieb on May 1, 2020 14:56:24 GMT
And just to elaborate that whenever I’ve dated a DA, even for a few dates even at the very beginning, I was always turned into AP. So now I’m careful if my AP is activated, I know I need to bounce, but if my FA is activated I feel like I can still see how it goes a little more. Not sure if this makes sense or if is at all useful.
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alice
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Post by alice on May 1, 2020 15:35:32 GMT
I'm not seeing "power" as related to self esteem or self worth or in relation to an emotional power struggle. If I marry a person, they contractually have power over me, given by the state, to take half of my things (absent another type of agreement). This can extend to children, how often you see them, how you parent, and attachment has zero to do with this at that point, but the "power" can extend for a long period of time after the relationship has ended depending on the circumstances. If you build a life with a person, the practical nature of that relationship includes a structure that requires two people to operate that life (to clarify, I don't mean codependence). If that relationship ends, the structure fails and a new structure has to be built individually. It is not life ending, no. But essentially, one person's decisions has impact on the other when you attach to that person. No one can deny that this happens no matter how secure you say you are.
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Post by annieb on May 1, 2020 15:52:56 GMT
I'm not seeing "power" as related to self esteem or self worth or in relation to an emotional power struggle. If I marry a person, they contractually have power over me, given by the state, to take half of my things (absent another type of agreement). This can extend to children, how often you see them, how you parent, and attachment has zero to do with this at that point, but the "power" can extend for a long period of time after the relationship has ended depending on the circumstances. If you build a life with a person, the practical nature of that relationship includes a structure that requires two people to operate that life (to clarify, I don't mean codependence). If that relationship ends, the structure fails and a new structure has to be built individually. It is not life ending, no. But essentially, one person's decisions has impact on the other when you attach to that person. No one can deny that this happens no matter how secure you say you are. I’m sorry this wasn’t clear, I mean power over your self esteem, power of how you feel about yourself. Within what you’re describing one could still relinquish the power of how they feel about themselves yet maintain a position within that power structure. |
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alice
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Post by alice on May 1, 2020 16:13:50 GMT
anniebSorry as well, as that was just really in response to all of the comments on power. I understand the self esteem aspect and power struggles and agree these are not healthy relationships and are toxic situations. I guess what I see though, is as someone is attempting to become secure, that dismissing the potential effect someone can have over your life by saying you hold your own power, is a recipe for disaster. Obviously, this does not mean distrust all people. But I am of the mindset trust is earned by both individuals by consistent actions over time. I think too many people have the mindset of trusting people unless they prove you wrong. I'm clearly working through finding the right balance for myself in practice. Thanks for all your comments.
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Post by annieb on May 1, 2020 16:22:58 GMT
I think “trust” and “trusting” is a great vernacular on how we relate to others and how we grow and change our attachment style. I think as FA and AP my trust was implied and trust was something I threw at them like a life jacket, vs as a secure trust is within me and I trust the other more or less as the relationship changes. So I guess trust, power, all are the same descriptors of that same idea.
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Post by tnr9 on May 1, 2020 16:39:50 GMT
I think all attachment tests are flawed because they rely on the tester to self evaluate in a moment of time. I too have tested secure at times....because I was not in a relationship where my insecurity would rear it’s head. But there is a difference between testing secure and being secure...which is why I don’t go by tests but by how do I relate to myself and others. |
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Post by alexandra on May 1, 2020 17:50:12 GMT
I think too many people have the mindset of trusting people unless they prove you wrong. I'm clearly working through finding the right balance for myself in practice. Thanks for all your comments. It is an avoidant mindset to approach this from a place of distrust (they need to prove you right not wrong). The best thing is to approach someone with neutrality, be open to whatever they have to say and whatever they're doing to show you who they are, and observe it over time. If you're getting a bad vibe right from the start, then you don't have to choose to trust them. But insecurely attached also have to learn if the bad vibe is real or if it's their own attachment system projecting (which is sounds like you're trying to figure out). In regards to legal power, the answer to that is probably a prenup, written while you both still like each other but after any initial limerence has died down so that it's fair and objective. |
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Post by amber on May 1, 2020 20:50:37 GMT
I think all attachment tests are flawed because they rely on the tester to self evaluate in a moment of time. I too have tested secure at times....because I was not in a relationship where my insecurity would rear it’s head. But there is a difference between testing secure and being secure...which is why I don’t go by tests but by how do I relate to myself and others. The only way to know your attachment style for sure is to have a trained professional test you with the AAI. They don’t just rely on your self observations but your body language, tone of voice etc, way you answer questions to determine your style |
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Post by BecomingMe on May 2, 2020 8:06:52 GMT
And just to elaborate that whenever I’ve dated a DA, even for a few dates even at the very beginning, I was always turned into AP. So now I’m careful if my AP is activated, I know I need to bounce, but if my FA is activated I feel like I can still see how it goes a little more. Not sure if this makes sense or if is at all useful. Hi annieb. Can you elaborate a little more on the "if my AP is activated I know I need to bounce". Do you mean you take this an indication that the relationship/partner is unhealthy or not meeting your needs and therefore, you'd want to leave? |
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Post by annieb on May 2, 2020 15:08:31 GMT
And just to elaborate that whenever I’ve dated a DA, even for a few dates even at the very beginning, I was always turned into AP. So now I’m careful if my AP is activated, I know I need to bounce, but if my FA is activated I feel like I can still see how it goes a little more. Not sure if this makes sense or if is at all useful. Hi annieb . Can you elaborate a little more on the "if my AP is activated I know I need to bounce". Do you mean you take this an indication that the relationship/partner is unhealthy or not meeting your needs and therefore, you'd want to leave? Yes, this is a new development for me. I've only been aware of this for maybe the last 6 months (I am 40 now and have had several LTRs and several STRs). Coinciding with my recent therapy and self development I have done and the work on my self esteem. I used to get this de-centered feeling with certain men and basically turning into an anxious mess with mostly DAs, vs now if I start feeling this way, I am able to recognize the feeling and understand that the person is not good for me. And basically call the relationship. |
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Post by alexandra on May 2, 2020 17:19:49 GMT
Hi annieb . Can you elaborate a little more on the "if my AP is activated I know I need to bounce". Do you mean you take this an indication that the relationship/partner is unhealthy or not meeting your needs and therefore, you'd want to leave? Yes, this is a new development for me. I've only been aware of this for maybe the last 6 months (I am 40 now and have had several LTRs and several STRs). Coinciding with my recent therapy and self development I have done and the work on my self esteem. I used to get this de-centered feeling with certain men and basically turning into an anxious mess with mostly DAs, vs now if I start feeling this way, I am able to recognize the feeling and understand that the person is not good for me. And basically call the relationship. Yep, it takes two to tango and keep the patterns and dance going. So it's each partner's responsibility to have good boundaries and not contribute to the dysfunction if they are trying to break the cycle. This is good awareness! |
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Post by serenity on May 2, 2020 20:31:30 GMT
annieb Thanks for your thoughts. It is splitting in a way. There are definitely good qualities, but this one concern could be a logical deal breaker. Reasonably so. I do think I have to dig in and ask more questions, but I have fears from my experience with men who just agree with me in what I am looking for when that is not what they really want. Essentially, he couldn't really tell me what he wanted or what he is looking for, and I don't take anyone like that seriously at this stage in our lives. I don't want to get attached to someone who doesn't know what he wants. There are a couple of other actions of his that indicate he is not thinking as long term as I am or that his motives are immature (ie appearance based). I need to do the uncomfortable thing and ask him about his past relationships etc. I am lacking trust though because of my past experiences. The other issue is my own emotions/insecurity. There's a bit of unnaturalness in our communication. I feel like I can't text him randomly...he seems to have to schedule in times to text/talk. I do that for phone...I don't like talking on the phone much, but I don't schedule in texting time. It feels so rigid. It triggered me and that's why I then really made a big deal about the first issue, which I think is a rational concern, but it is not worth destroying him over, but I kind of already did. I have zero doubts he really likes me...but likes me for what, for how long? So, it's hard to put in the effort to do the tough question asking when I get defensive with the above mentioned emotions. I can't find balance. I just don't even want to talk to him right now. Ie. I'm in a withdrawn state. Alice, I really feel for you trying to navigate the dating world, and I see a lot of good judgment and careful, legitimate appraisal in your posts personally. I think his tendency towards a shallow appreciation of women, and being close to middle age and yet having no idea why he's dating or what he wants both are totally legitimate concerns... Men his age who have seriously loved women beyond the honeymoon tend to not view them as objects, and they have enough experience to know what they want, and to discuss the nuts and bolts of how they envision a relationship working. They will discuss conflict resolution style, cohabitation or living apart, their dreams, expectations of you in terms of your character, building trust, whether they want pets, kids....where they see their life going and how a partner will fit into it. And they can do it from the first date too, if they love relationships and are looking for one. A guy who talks only about how hot he likes women to look (or acts shallow) and cannot deeply discuss real life relationship goals, is likely to be immature and may have not gotten very far with many relationships. And your concern that his feelings may flip after the "honeymoon" when the 'high' feelings ease is extremely fair. Avoidants tend to do this, without much introspection or accountability. The extent of how they process the "flip" is often they don't have feelings for you now, too bad if you are in love, and bye! I don't really know what to suggest, but I'd consider somehow slowing things down until you feel reassured. Maybe form a friendship with him and date (and/or befriend) other men, if you can master any possessive feelings you may have developed. I split from my most recent avoidant ex 6 months ago, and I'm unable to date around (too much sexual expectation), but I have formed very good friendships with men who have been reminding me how non-avoidants behave, think, and communicate. My "jitters" from being frequently stonewalled and discarded by my ex , as well as the shallow indirect communication, are starting to ease up. I don't feel any of that in my friendships. And i'm starting to get a good feel for what pace in communication works for me and feels healthy and natural. I think I'm likely most attracted to mildly FA men tending towards secure like me, who have very good communication and introspection skills. Those are the ones who don't activate me too anxious or avoidant. There are one or two in my circle of friends I may consider dating when I've known them longer, but I can honestly take or leave it, depending on if our life-goals align. |
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alice
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Post by alice on May 3, 2020 1:41:55 GMT
Alice, I really feel for you trying to navigate the dating world, and I see a lot of good judgment and careful, legitimate appraisal in your posts personally. I think his tendency towards a shallow appreciation of women, and being close to middle age and yet having no idea why he's dating or what he wants both are totally legitimate concerns... Men his age who have seriously loved women beyond the honeymoon tend to not view them as objects, and they have enough experience to know what they want, and to discuss the nuts and bolts of how they envision a relationship working. They will discuss conflict resolution style, cohabitation or living apart, their dreams, expectations of you in terms of your character, building trust, whether they want pets, kids....where they see their life going and how a partner will fit into it. And they can do it from the first date too, if they love relationships and are looking for one. A guy who talks only about how hot he likes women to look (or acts shallow) and cannot deeply discuss real life relationship goals, is likely to be immature and may have not gotten very far with many relationships. And your concern that his feelings may flip after the "honeymoon" when the 'high' feelings ease is extremely fair. Avoidants tend to do this, without much introspection or accountability. The extent of how they process the "flip" is often they don't have feelings for you now, too bad if you are in love, and bye! I don't really know what to suggest, but I'd consider somehow slowing things down until you feel reassured. Maybe form a friendship with him and date (and/or befriend) other men, if you can master any possessive feelings you may have developed. I split from my most recent avoidant ex 6 months ago, and I'm unable to date around (too much sexual expectation), but I have formed very good friendships with men who have been reminding me how non-avoidants behave, think, and communicate. My "jitters" from being frequently stonewalled and discarded by my ex , as well as the shallow indirect communication, are starting to ease up. I don't feel any of that in my friendships. And i'm starting to get a good feel for what pace in communication works for me and feels healthy and natural. I think I'm likely most attracted to mildly FA men tending towards secure like me, who have very good communication and introspection skills. Those are the ones who don't activate me too anxious or avoidant. There are one or two in my circle of friends I may consider dating when I've known them longer, but I can honestly take or leave it, depending on if our life-goals align. Thank you. I'm not certain he is shallow. In fact, he has a lot of depth, but I'm not certain he is requiring depth from a woman he dates. I did have a long conversation with him after I initially posted this. He clarified some. He sort of described some qualities he is looking for, but I think he was trying to say that it's sort of the same thing everyone wants (i.e. someone who is kind). Or it's something unexplainable (i.e. someone who understands me). But I guess what I'm looking for is beyond that. People certainly have different ways of living. You listed some good things here. He mentioned someone he dated that didn't deal well with conflict. I didn't think to ask specifically how he handles it, but he is a fairly direct person, so I would imagine he would prefer to resolve issues. I have a slight concern without tons of evidence that he could be DA. I've never dated a DA. I'm used to men more FA/AP who try hard to get me to like them. This guy is flirty and has initiated a lot, but I'm the one asking the tough questions. He has asked me questions about how I function. I think he is curious about how I tick and I think that is a good thing. But what about the long term stuff? So far, I think my concerns are more stemming from my own fears, but I need to see his actions play out to confirm or deny these. He is a bit too scheduled for me, but I'll try to work with him on that. I'm not sure how to form a friendship when he gets flirty with me. I tease some but I don't flirt sexually nor emotionally. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I think there is a distinction. I always feel like friendship is an ideal way to start but can be difficult. It's a way to get to know someone in the most authentic way without any pressure. Sorry you have had bad experiences. I think my reactions to dating today more stem from bad experiences with men than they do from my childhood, though I probably did not learn good emotional coping skills growing up. But, I had pretty smooth sailing in dating prior to the relationship trauma. I'm still working through it all I guess. |
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Post by BecomingMe on May 3, 2020 16:53:33 GMT
Hi annieb . Can you elaborate a little more on the "if my AP is activated I know I need to bounce". Do you mean you take this an indication that the relationship/partner is unhealthy or not meeting your needs and therefore, you'd want to leave? Yes, this is a new development for me. I've only been aware of this for maybe the last 6 months (I am 40 now and have had several LTRs and several STRs). Coinciding with my recent therapy and self development I have done and the work on my self esteem. I used to get this de-centered feeling with certain men and basically turning into an anxious mess with mostly DAs, vs now if I start feeling this way, I am able to recognize the feeling and understand that the person is not good for me. And basically call the relationship. Thank you! This is very good advice for me as an FA. |
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alice
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Post by alice on May 5, 2020 4:29:24 GMT
Well, just an update. I was feeling anxious about this person I was dating and I was trying to determine if any of it was more indicative of something being "off" or if it was my own internal issues. It was the former. I was right to have some questions.
I had a conversation with him about what he was looking for. I had already asked him over text and he gave me a very generic answer, and it indicated to me he wasn't serious or really didn't know what he wanted. I also sensed he was more interested in attraction over compatibility. He said if you have a list of things you're looking for, you always throw that out the window if you're attracted. I told him I disagree with that a lot and that I have walked from men I found attractive.
So, over the phone, I asked him again. He joked that he didn't give me a clear enough answer. So he gave me some answers off the top of his head. They were more specific than last time, but kind of the things everyone wants (i.e. someone kind). I asked "well, are you looking for something casual? someone to live with? a companion?" I was frustrated at having to pull it out of him. I felt like I was grilling him. He sort of mimicked my answer.
He also joked about everything. While he would ask me some questions about how I tick and seemed a bit curious about me, he didn't ask any serious questions. I didn't feel he was serious.
I was right. Today, he told me he was going to focus on pursuing other "people"...not just one person. But I was still welcome to communicate with him, but that he understood if I didn't. He didn't offer friendship, it was like an option. Of course, I kindly told him I don't function that way. I feel like I'm coming off as "frigid" just because I am pursuing something serious and that is very frustrating. I still joked with him and flirted with him a good deal. Regardless, I'm not going to change these standards I have. It's frustrating to come across so many men who want to just have fun and make you out to be crazy if you have relationship goals. He had made fun of women who have lists. I understand the going extreme on that. I generally have three general qualities that I say are must haves. But having nothing is concerning to me at this point in our lives.
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