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Post by washingmyhair on May 10, 2020 1:47:28 GMT
I am just learning about FA attachment and am just trying to process some things.
Just under 20 years ago I met someone that I really connected with and fell deeply for. I was 30 and he was slightly older. our companies did business together so he was my client. Even though the attraction was palpable from day one, we didn’t acknowledge it and got to know each other fairly well through work. After a year of working closely together, he moved to another roll at different company, and we started dating. He was your stereotypical all American guy that “checks every box”. A real catch that was oddly still single in his mid-late 30’s.
Maybe I leaned avoidant or even anxious in some form at that time, but I test solidly secure now. I had a very busy and diverse social life when we met, and we both lived in a major metro area, 45 minutes apart w/no traffic. We were really into each other, but in the beginning especially, he’d wait days in between seeing each other before contacting me again. I knew that was odd, but at the time, it seemed to work well. He was always loving, affectionately & introduced me to friends & coworkers, yet we mostly just hung at his place.. He didn’t seem interested in meeting my friends or staying at my place. At first, it didn’t bother me, but still a red flag.. We spent more time together the closer we got and frankly, it sometimes felt like he wanted more time from me that I was able to give since I always had to come to him. I fell in love deeply, let him know, and beyond a shadow of a doubt, I know he loved me the same, but mostly had a hard time sharing those words. He also seemed sorta insecure about some things, but I always tried to show him just what he meant to me. Around 10 months in, I was to meet his parents, and things were heading in the right direction.
At almost 1yr together, he still had a hard time being vulnerable with me, and I often felt insecure because he didn’t seem interested in spending time in my environment, never bought me a present either. I asked him to join at a friend’s wedding, he declined. In that conversation I asked him just exactly I meant to him at that point in our relationship then. He told me I was a good friend he enjoyed spending time with — as if I was his neighbor. Logically, I know that wasn’t true, but emotionally, it crushed me. I felt like I was wasting my time and basically told him that I didn’t know what to do with that, then broke it off with him. He never tried to make things right after.
It was hard getting over him, I truly loved him more than anyone, but I did move on, got married and have a family. He moved several states away for a promotion. Had relationships but never married.
We talk maybe once every few years — just me checking-in & wishing him congrats on starting a new company, telling him when my son was born, to talk political events and similar. Never talk about us or have deep conversions, but it’s easy for us to talk about most anything but “us” together. Always has been. He occasionally reaches out to me, but always seems happy when I do.
Five years since we last talked and I text him “Happy B-Day!”. He then feels the need to blurt out that I am the only person he had any warm feelings for, asks me about my marriage, tells me we would have been good together and even if I may have wanted to kill him half the time, he would have always loved me, I’m the one that got away, he wishes I would come visit him, etc. I realize that I actually wanted to hear this, that he messed up, etc. On the other hand, I asked him to stop when he started writing all this as I knew it would mess with my head. He didn’t stop, and it did.
I know I shouldn’t care and nobody can say for sure, bu I and wondering why he even did this? Should I assume these are his true feelings? Or am I just the phantom ex? Is he taking stock of his life? Or is he playing games with me for his benefit? If I ask him, I know he will play it down, so I’m trying to unpack this, and almost feel that I shouldn’t even catch up with him every few years anymore, for both of us.
Any insight is appreciated and sorry for the book.
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Post by mrob on May 10, 2020 4:17:39 GMT
Yep. I’d say you are the phantom ex. I’m sure most of us FAs have them.
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Post by serenity on May 10, 2020 6:17:46 GMT
I know how that feels, when you connect so deeply with someone, across so many different areas, and the relationship falls apart without there being any tangible source of conflict or incompatibility.
I would suggest you stay detached, and accept the validation as a kind of closure to a confusing situation. He likely meant what he said, but a relationship can't work if someone can't feel those things when they are involved with you, and only feel them when you are no longer together. And you are married now, you don't need to be stuffed around while he works this out for himself. It sounds like he has no clue about his part in his many relationship break downs.
I've had similar experiences with Avoidants I dated 20 years ago, who I connected with very deeply. They are great guys, tick every box, wonderful to talk to. But they lose a sense of love and connection when in a relationship, and noone can do anything about it but them. Don't fall the "I suddenly have feelings again!" thing. Its not enough to get them past their issues, and you would only be hurt if you allowed yourself to believe it was.
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Post by washingmyhair on May 10, 2020 16:20:54 GMT
Thanks for the informative replies. I appreciate your insight. Still trying to figure out this commenting system so forgive me for not replying to anyone directly.
I sorta believe we both have unresolved feelings. Maybe I am wrong about him, but Serenity, i do think that you hit the nail on the head regarding the nature and then ending of our relationship has something to do with it, for me.
I still don’t understand what he meant to accomplish with bringing this up now. I worry that he was trying to hear that he still has power over me, but also don’t want to think he would do that to me. Either way, him doing this now doesn’t help anything and I feel like detaching is the only way I can move past what he stirred up in me. It feels bittersweet to have to do that, especially after all these years and so little contact or conflict otherwise.
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Post by annieb on May 10, 2020 16:36:23 GMT
It appears he may be your phantom ex as well. I think you are wise to surmise that this is an attempt at a power confirmation/ ego stroke. And perhaps this is as good as time as any to let go. There hasn't been much conflict because there hasn't been much interaction, and it's mostly been initiated by you, is that right? I guess for me what worked to get over my phantom ex (before I knew about attachment theory), was that I reached his age, and I realized that I would have never treated another person the way he treated me, and just like that I never spoke to him; and up until that moment we had developed almost a friendship. But all this friendship did was keep me away from my real friends and family, people, who were always there for me. Those are the ones to focus on.
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Post by washingmyhair on May 10, 2020 17:02:46 GMT
It appears he may be your phantom ex as well. I think you are wise to surmise that this is an attempt at a power confirmation/ ego stroke. And perhaps this is as good as time as any to let go. There hasn't been much conflict because there hasn't been much interaction, and it's mostly been initiated by you, is that right? I guess for me what worked to get over my phantom ex (before I knew about attachment theory), was that I reached his age, and I realized that I would have never treated another person the way he treated me, and just like that I never spoke to him; and up until that moment we had developed almost a friendship. But all this friendship did was keep me away from my real friends and family, people, who were always there for me. Those are the ones to focus on. I absolutely acknowledge that I had unresolved feelings about how our relationship ended because at the time, I had no frame of reference to know that his actions were some sort of predictable pattern. Instead, it just didn’t make logical sense to me. This last contact is how I ended up researching and learning about attachment types as it helps me understand myself, him, and his actions, mine, and our relationship, which makes things easier for me to put in their proper place for the first time in ages. I try not to stay mad at anyone and to always see the good in people, so the thought of him wanting to see if he still has power over frankly sucks! I thought he respected me more than that, but I guess it’s been more complicated than him wanting to use me on a conscious level. Or at least that’s what I assume. Him doing this brought me to research and finally find what I think finally helps me understand and make sense of our relationship — past and present. I suspect I’ve been wanting to do that all this time. I am thankful that I finally understand (at least I hope I do), so that I can finally put it all behind me for good. It does feel bittersweet though. |
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Post by alexandra on May 10, 2020 17:45:51 GMT
I sorta believe we both have unresolved feelings. I'm inclined to agree with this, but the feelings are likely not what you think. I don't know your attachment style, but if you are secure, then yes, your unresolved feelings might be because of how he blindsided you with how the situation originally ended and you're inexperienced with dealing with insecurely attached people and didn't know that you need to find closure yourself because most are simply incapable of giving it to you. However, even if you are securely attached and your unresolved feelings are directly about him... he's definitely got an insecure attachment style which means all his unresolved feelings are not actually about you. They are about whatever unhealed trauma he endured that led to him developing the attachment style in the first place, but unconsciously projected and directed at you. This is one contributor to why there's even such a thing as phantom exes. It's a place to redirect past pain and continue to avoid dealing with it by being distracted with something else that's not really the underlying issue. But the distraction is also a distancing technique that allows whoever has phantom exes to avoid the true source of their underlying pain while also having an excuse to keep intimacy with new partners incomplete and at a distance (a more suitable partner can't measure up to a fantasy). Insecurely attached people think differently from securely attached people, so it can be difficult for someone securely attached to imagine and understand distorted thought processes because they seem so unintuitive. That's why attachment theory can take quite a bit of study to understand (and same for insecurely attached, the thought patterns of securely attached don't seem straightforward or intuitive either). And that's why you can see someone stuck in their trauma who says they have undying love for you, and that sounds plausible until you have a better understanding of how these insecure attachment styles develop as defense mechanisms that get stuck due to unprocessed trauma. But also note, insecurely attached people are generally unaware of any of this until they start doing any attachment work, so they believe what they're saying to you, though there might be a vague underlying feeling they don't understand or connect well with that something is "off" about the whole thing. So to summarize, if you're securely attached, your unresolved feelings may be directly related to him but he can't resolve them for you. If he's insecurely attached, his unresolved feelings are more about his past trauma than about you. And if you're actually also insecurely attached and not securely attached, your unresolved feelings are likely to be about something deeper and further back in the past than him if you really dig down. |
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Post by washingmyhair on May 10, 2020 18:12:38 GMT
I sorta believe we both have unresolved feelings. I'm inclined to agree with this, but the feelings are likely not what you think. I don't know your attachment style, but if you are secure, then yes, your unresolved feelings might be because of how he blindsided you with how the situation originally ended and you're inexperienced with dealing with insecurely attached people and didn't know that you need to find closure yourself because most are simply incapable of giving it to you. However, even if you are securely attached and your unresolved feelings are directly about him... he's definitely got an insecure attachment style which means all his unresolved feelings are not actually about you. They are about whatever unhealed trauma he endured that led to him developing the attachment style in the first place, but unconsciously projected and directed at you. This is one contributor to why there's even such a thing as phantom exes. It's a place to redirect past pain and continue to avoid dealing with it by being distracted with something else that's not really the underlying issue. But the distraction is also a distancing technique that allows whoever has phantom exes to avoid the true source of their underlying pain while also having an excuse to keep intimacy with new partners incomplete and at a distance (a more suitable partner can't measure up to a fantasy). Insecurely attached people think differently from securely attached people, so it can be difficult for someone securely attached to imagine and understand distorted thought processes because they seem so unintuitive. That's why attachment theory can take quite a bit of study to understand (and same for insecurely attached, the thought patterns of securely attached don't seem straightforward or intuitive either). And that's why you can see someone stuck in their trauma who says they have undying love for you, and that sounds plausible until you have a better understanding of how these insecure attachment styles develop as defense mechanisms that get stuck due to unprocessed trauma. So to summarize, if you're securely attached, your unresolved feelings may be directly related to him but he can't resolve them for you. If he's insecurely attached, his unresolved feelings are more about his past trauma than about you. And if you're actually also insecurely attached and not securely attached, your unresolved feelings are likely to be about something deeper and further back in the past than him if you really dig down. Thanks for the insight. I actually feel a sense of relief from what I’ve learned because of this as it helped me find the missing puzzle pieces that always perplexed and confused me. I never had anything remotely similar happen with any of my other serious relationships and definitely not at all within my marriage. I did feel blindsided. I am not versed enough in attachment theory to know if that comes from a place of secure or insecure attachment, but it feels right to me. On the other hand, I guess I don’t understand attachment theory enough as what you’re saying makes me feel that our whole relationship must have also been something not based on mutual love in any real sense either. I guess I am still confused about insecure attachment patterns then, but is that how I should view it? |
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Post by alexandra on May 10, 2020 18:30:06 GMT
washingmyhair, sorry, I added an important sentence but it must have been after you'd read it  "But also note, insecurely attached people are generally unaware of any of this until they start doing any attachment work, so they believe what they're saying to you, though there might be a vague underlying feeling they don't understand or connect well with that something is "off" about the whole thing." So, to answer your question, they love as much as they're capable, and that's real even if it's dysfunctional. But due to issues with fear of engulfment (avoidant) and/or fear of abandonment (anxious) and insecure attachment styles developing as a defense mechanism to keep a vulnerable child alive and attached to difficult caretakers, they're simply limited until they become aware of their patterns and do what can be years of painful work to reprogram themselves. A lot of people don't make it that far because they have no reason to believe it's trauma and it isn't just who they are. Like, they've been this way ever since they can remember so it seems normal to them and not intuitive to consciously be different and change. And where the lack of capacity comes in is basically, insecurely attached styled people can get stuck in the fantasy bonding stage (I suggest you look up "fantasy bond") and are too afraid of being vulnerable enough for real, reciprocal intimacy. They are too disconnected from themselves (as a sad byproduct of insecure attachment style serving a real purpose in childhood but we don't automatically outgrow them as adults) to be able to understand who they really are or their own needs, which makes it impossible for them to communicate directly or honestly or reliably. But again, it's not intentional. It's related to actual nervous system conditioning. Avoidant nervous systems shut down when they get overwhelmed, but they're not aware that it happens. Anxious nervous systems get flooded. This manifests as avoidant disconnect totally when their fears and attachment wounds get triggered, and anxious overreact, ruminate, obsess, desperate to reconnect, when their fear of abandonment and attachment wounds get triggered.
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Post by washingmyhair on May 10, 2020 18:50:05 GMT
washingmyhair, sorry, I added an important sentence but it must have been after you'd read it "But also note, insecurely attached people are generally unaware of any of this until they start doing any attachment work, so they believe what they're saying to you, though there might be a vague underlying feeling they don't understand or connect well with that something is "off" about the whole thing." So, to answer your question, they love as much as they're capable, and that's real even if it's dysfunctional. But due to issues with fear of engulfment (avoidant) and/or fear of abandonment (anxious) and insecure attachment styles developing as a defense mechanism to keep a vulnerable child alive and attached to difficult caretakers, they're simply limited until they become aware of their patterns and do what can be years of painful work to reprogram themselves. A lot of people don't make it that far because they have no reason to believe it's trauma and it isn't just who they are. Like, they've been this way ever since they can remember so it seems normal to them and not intuitive to consciously be different and change. And where the lack of capacity comes in is basically, insecurely attached styled people can get stuck in the fantasy bonding stage (I suggest you look up "fantasy bond") and are too afraid of being vulnerable enough for real, reciprocal intimacy. They are too disconnected from themselves (as a sad byproduct of insecure attachment style serving a real purpose in childhood but we don't automatically outgrow them as adults) to be able to understand who they really are or their own needs, which makes it impossible for them to communicate directly or honestly or reliably. But again, it's not intentional. It's related to actual nervous system conditioning. Avoidant nervous systems shut down when they get overwhelmed, but they're not aware that it happens. Anxious nervous systems get flooded. This manifests as avoidant disconnect totally when their fears and attachment wounds get triggered, and anxious overreact, ruminate, obsess, desperate to reconnect, when their fear of abandonment and attachment wounds get triggered. Thank you for this insight. I get what you’re saying and really can’t thank you all that have replied enough for all of your first hand experience and insight. I am going to look into Fantasy Bond at your suggestion. I am totally unfamiliar with it. |
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Post by washingmyhair on May 10, 2020 23:16:34 GMT
washingmyhair, sorry, I added an important sentence but it must have been after you'd read it "But also note, insecurely attached people are generally unaware of any of this until they start doing any attachment work, so they believe what they're saying to you, though there might be a vague underlying feeling they don't understand or connect well with that something is "off" about the whole thing." So, to answer your question, they love as much as they're capable, and that's real even if it's dysfunctional. But due to issues with fear of engulfment (avoidant) and/or fear of abandonment (anxious) and insecure attachment styles developing as a defense mechanism to keep a vulnerable child alive and attached to difficult caretakers, they're simply limited until they become aware of their patterns and do what can be years of painful work to reprogram themselves. A lot of people don't make it that far because they have no reason to believe it's trauma and it isn't just who they are. Like, they've been this way ever since they can remember so it seems normal to them and not intuitive to consciously be different and change. And where the lack of capacity comes in is basically, insecurely attached styled people can get stuck in the fantasy bonding stage (I suggest you look up "fantasy bond") and are too afraid of being vulnerable enough for real, reciprocal intimacy. They are too disconnected from themselves (as a sad byproduct of insecure attachment style serving a real purpose in childhood but we don't automatically outgrow them as adults) to be able to understand who they really are or their own needs, which makes it impossible for them to communicate directly or honestly or reliably. But again, it's not intentional. It's related to actual nervous system conditioning. Avoidant nervous systems shut down when they get overwhelmed, but they're not aware that it happens. Anxious nervous systems get flooded. This manifests as avoidant disconnect totally when their fears and attachment wounds get triggered, and anxious overreact, ruminate, obsess, desperate to reconnect, when their fear of abandonment and attachment wounds get triggered. Thank you for this insight. I get what you’re saying and really can’t thank you all that have replied enough for all of your first hand experience and insight. I am going to look into Fantasy Bond at your suggestion. I am totally unfamiliar with it. I still don’t understand where the fantasy bond fits in. Are you saying he had that with me? From what I am reading on it, I am not sure our relationship ever got to that point. Maybe it did, but it just doesn’t seem to fit what I know of our relationship when we were together. I understand that attachment insecurities have some variety in how they manifest in individuals, so could that be why I can’t find where this piece of the puzzle fits? |
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Post by alexandra on May 11, 2020 0:10:16 GMT
washingmyhair, yes, I'm trying to say that insecure attachment style individuals have difficulty getting to true, balanced, loving relationships with good boundaries, healthy in both an independent and interdependent respect, and an easier way to understand this conceptually is knowing what a fantasy bond is. Here's a link that has good information: www.psychalive.org/how-do-i-know-if-im-in-a-fantasy-bond/For the case of a fearful avoidant especially, “Most people have fears of intimacy and are self-protective and at the same time are terrified of being alone. Their solution to their emotional dilemma is to form a fantasy bond. This illusion of connection and closeness allows them to maintain an imagination of love and loving while preserving emotional distance...” So, think of it this way. Insecurely attached people often start their relationships with limerence or lust when they first get together romantically AKA the honeymoon period. Things are going well, because there's a lot of projection about who the other person is and the potential of the relationship. But to get past that, to the deeper emotional for better or worse commitment bond of comfort and safety, you have to truly see the other person for who they are and you also have to be willing to be vulnerable and honest with both them and yourself. People with enough emotional damage 1. didn't necessarily have healthy examples of good boundaries and relationships to learn from 2. couldn't see their attachment figures clearly earlier in life because it would be too painful. So instead, they get stuck in this idea of what they'd like a perfect relationship to be (possibly created by Hollywood or pop culture etc) and can't get past that -- which means the truth of what the relationship is will be disappointing simply because it's different than these lofty expectations. For better adjusted people, that's okay, there's a deeper level that time and consistent trust and reliability leads to. For those who get stuck in fantasy bonding, the disappearance of the high of new chemistry feels like something is wrong ie relationships should always make you feel whole and perfect, and if they don't, blame the partner for not being "the one" and then distance or withdraw. As long as your avoidant ex limited your relationship in some capacity, preventing it from getting too close, too intimate, too real, too engulfing (being with you for a year but meeting up only on his schedule, not being excited to meet your friends and invest more deeply in a way normal to secure people), it felt safe enough to continue. Because it's still stuck in this fantasy aspect stage. Past that, he shuts down, at least until you're far away enough that he feels safe again. Does that make more sense?
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Post by alexandra on May 11, 2020 0:17:01 GMT
washingmyhair, insecurely attached people also usually have control issues, and seeing romantic relationships as fantasy bonds instead of having a fully autonomous other person helps maintain an illusion of more control of their surroundings, which also makes them feel safer. Another reason he wanted to hang out at his place and not so much at yours, and why other aspects may have felt like a power struggle. He was struggling to maintain "perfection" in a way because it represents him feeling enough in control of his life.
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Post by mrob on May 11, 2020 2:23:15 GMT
Ouch! But so accurate!!
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Post by alexandra on May 11, 2020 5:29:27 GMT
Haha, sorry  But you've chatted with me enough to know I've been on every side of this, including guilty too, so now I just call it like I see it  |
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But you've chatted with me enough to know I've been on every side of this, including guilty too, so now I just call it like I see it 