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Post by somebodyiknow on May 15, 2020 13:24:33 GMT
37 f/a married 43 d/a for 2.5 years together almost 4 years. Upon learning about attachment styles I have a lot more understanding of the dynamic of my relationship and both of our issues. However before knowing a lot of the fights drama etc caused a lot of damage. Even before I knew my style I had started to shut down and I was able to just walk away from discussions knowing I wouldn't have closure particularly because I'd be showing emotion.... He'd shut down regularly which I used to think was intentional and cruel. Understanding the subconscious part has helped me feel more compassion. Knowing I was left to writhe in pain and not have any comfort or support was hard yet I know at times I could have controlled myself better. Working on myself and dealing with regular rejection and disinterest (him to me) I feel like I've outgrown him. Yet I have this lingering feeling that it's me just pushing him away and trying to pin point his issues. We went 2 years with no sex. I asked regularly and even if we didn't have sex I desired to be close and intimate somehow. He did things I feel to push me away. I think over time and lots of exercises reparenting looking at myself naked in the mirror and just learning to not internalize it all has caused me to feel so far from him. Of course I am not the best at stating my needs all the time but I have gotten better and I don't see changes. I'm still here yet I don't have a lot of hope. Used to I'd have the cold and hot the push and pull toxic pattern . Looking back though I do wonder if it was just my desire for him to want me. Knowledge is power and knowing what I know now if I remove myself from the wanting I'm not sure we even have enough compatibility to endure. Maybe I'm a little resentful and bitter. I've watched a lot of thais gibsons work along with almost obsessive research but I just don't feel hopeful at all. He has a lot of amazing things about him.... I just feel so discouraged that I may never have the partner I feel I'd love to have even coming from a secure place I think my needs are reasonable. I think I've grown a lot more secure (of course I see some of my old ways still). I was with a fairly secure maybe slightly a/p for a very long time before this marriage.
We did rush in and marry too fast I think I had second thoughts because the sex had already pretty much died off at that point I went from one relationship to another quickly without healing I labeled my husband a lot and threatened to leave him regularly I did a lot of damage Due to that damage I don't feel I can be as open in talking about attachment with him I've mentioned subconscious stuff to him vaguely but he's not open to it He doesn't seem to be interested in making friends and having a social life like I'd love to have as a couple I don't know what I'm really asking for here. Maybe some guidance? Questions to ask myself to gain understanding? I feel a lot of incompatibility. I wonder if I just had limerance or if I truly love or loved him? Can anyone help or relate?
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Post by Helsbells on May 15, 2020 13:38:24 GMT
Hi I just want to say hi and intend to reply properly to your message when I get my little granddaughter to sleep. Wow I can really really relate to your text. If it's your first time on this forum you are really in the best place for great support, real understanding and growth as there is a wealth of knowledge from the people who share so freely on this site.
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Post by somebodyiknow on May 15, 2020 14:11:00 GMT
Hi I just want to say hi and intend to reply properly to your message when I get my little granddaughter to sleep. Wow I can really really relate to your text. If it's your first time on this forum you are really in the best place for great support, real understanding and growth as there is a wealth of knowledge from the people who share so freely on this site. Thank you I have a granddaughter too who fights her sleep like crazy lol ❤️❤️❤️ I am new here and excited to learn and grow.
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Post by somebodyiknow on May 15, 2020 15:51:01 GMT
Just had a better than usual conversation.. It started as finances as he brought up how much money I had saved yesterday. I felt defensive at first because I wanted him to be real with why he was asking. I felt like he asked because he knows I'm uncomfortable and considering divorce. Knowing I have a bit of money saved I felt made him uncomfortable as he has kind of held over my head all he does for me. He did confirm that he has those thoughts. He did accuse me of controlling the narrative but I didn't let it mess up the goal I had for the conversation. I guess in a way I was controlling it but not in a toxic way. Not to incite fears and get a reaction as I might have in the past. I explained to him that in the relationship I have made threats to leave and said hurtful things to try to push him into actions like desiring intimacy in all ways (conversation physical etc) I have said things like "there are men out there who would want me" etc. Men who would reciprocate.... It was a desperate attempt to have my needs met and it failed miserably. What I wanted him to understand is that this time the seriousness of things is real. My therapist wants me to sit down with him this weekend and have a timed conversation about 2 needs we both have and ask him if he's truly happy in the marriage if it continues the way it is now. I explained I can't force the response I want from him and I won't try any longer to manipulate the context of conversation. I am however prepared to accept his response and decide how I proceed. I have quite a few needs I feel are unmet but I'm going to start small. I do feel that I did this last weekend and he did it his way as usual. (asked him to plan something for mothers day) Yet I'm going to be very clear again and see what happens. She thinks based on if he can start small with 2 needs maybe it's worth trying more in the future. Hope that made sense.
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Post by Helsbells on May 15, 2020 17:01:33 GMT
What I really dont want is a man to make a bit if very short lived effort for intimacy just because I might have triggered them temporarily anxious then to revert back to there being know intimacy and no effort towards any. I have to accept that in order for me to feel peace and calm and safe in any future relationships I have to move away from the avoidant type.
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Post by somebodyiknow on May 15, 2020 17:42:30 GMT
What I really dont want is a man to make a bit if very short lived effort for intimacy just because I might have triggered them temporarily anxious then to revert back to there being know intimacy and no effort towards any. I have to accept that in order for me to feel peace and calm and safe in any future relationships I have to move away from the avoidant type. That's a good point. I don't want to have to beg plead or have sympathy intimacy either. I think that's why lately I've just gotten used to it
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Post by somebodyiknow on May 15, 2020 17:45:25 GMT
I know its a total push pull because the last time we had sex was when I had really started focusing on myself more. It attracted him to me.... Idk if it was anxious because I wasn't begging anymore or of it was because he felt less pressure or both. It gave me hope but it didn't last. It's been almost 6 months again....
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Post by Helsbells on May 15, 2020 18:53:50 GMT
I know its a total push pull because the last time we had sex was when I had really started focusing on myself more. It attracted him to me.... Idk if it was anxious because I wasn't begging anymore or of it was because he felt less pressure or both. It gave me hope but it didn't last. It's been almost 6 months again.... I feel the same. I was married for 25 yrs and the sex and intimacy was great really good all the way through the relationship. Unfortunately I lost him a few years ago and my ex avoidant was my first and only bf since losing my husband. I now have to accept that we will never be compatible for anything solid and sustainable. Intimacy, sex, touch, open honesty, emotional maturity and trust are what I need to feel safe. We both tried to make it work but I never ever will we are just to different in our needs.
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Post by alexandra on May 15, 2020 19:17:07 GMT
somebodyiknow, welcome to the board. I'm sorry you're in a complicated and frankly bad, yet common, situation. It sounds like you and your husband are playing out the typical anxious/avoidant dance that comes with longer-term FA/DA dynamics. I notice in your post that you're kind of trying to assign blame, and sometimes you're blaming him but then asking if that's fair, plus you've listed reasons you've contributed to this. In these situations, the blame is equally on both partners, even though they're just playing out the predictable insecure attachment style patterns. It can be true that you jumped in too quickly, you hadn't healed your past issues yet both from childhood and the breakdown of your previous relationship, you didn't always communicate your needs properly and even pushed him away when you engaged in protest behavior and perhaps not fighting "fairly" (saying and doing personally hurtful things when trying to do conflict resolution). But it's also true that he avoids intimacy, stonewalls, also doesn't communicate his needs (which he likely is disconnected from and simply can't understand and communicate), withholds sex (typical of an avoidant partner to avoid intimacy, both DA and avoidant triggered FA may commonly do this), and hasn't been open to getting vulnerable and honest enough to fix things. Sometimes I suggest, when people are struggling with framing "blame," to look at the relationship in thirds. A third of the problem is you and your personal issues feel before you met him: basically, addressing your FA style and not project "you" problems related to your fears of abandonment and engulfment that truly don't have to do with him. This may mean really thinking through how you communicate, whether you're connected to your needs and understand them, how you feel about yourself, if you desire others to emotionally regulate you especially when you're feeling triggered, if you have good boundaries. Those are all examples of you issues that you may feel no matter what romantic partner you have because it's your personal side of things and ways in which you may feel triggered no matter how someone acts towards you. Then a third are his issues to deal with, basically the same family of problems I just listed but the dismissive avoidant version of them. His attachment trauma and triggers are his to deal with and take responsibility for. Then the last third is actually the compatibility of the relationship: do you trigger each other with reason, such as his stonewalling IS treating you with disrespect and it's completely reasonable that you feel bad and like your healthy needs aren't being met in response, because they're not. This isn't projection on your part that's really tied to a past issue, this is a direct issue with him and your dynamic that is an incompatibility. Then, in this space you can also put neutral and non-attachment dealbreakers, like differences in lifestyle goals, divergent values, true incompatibilities and dealbreakers that aren't anyone's "fault." What you're describing, that you feel you're outgrowing him, may be accurate. The way attachment dynamics tend to play out over time between pairings (ie FA/DA, AP/FA, DA/secure, whatever) are patterned and predictable within their pairing categories. The details change but the overall way it plays out eventually is always the same. The times the patterns shift is when someone is shifting attachment style. You're aware and doing self-work and getting more secure than you were. He's not. But that is your decision, right? He didn't influence you to start working on this stuff, your unhappiness over time sounds like it was motivating you to seek healing and change. And that's the problem, this is a very individual choice and process, and you can't make someone else want to do it. You can just give them some starting information, and if they are interested in also starting the painful but fantastic road of self-development, they'll tell or show you that. But it's on their own timing, which may be never. I think your therapist is right, that you don't want him to feel blind-sided and that you haven't directly or honestly communicated your full needs and feelings to him yet. I understand why you haven't been able to. You two both need to improve your communication and conflict resolution abilities (things all insecure styles struggle with), and you're still stuck in this holding pattern of triggering each other and not resolving anything when you try to bring it up or when you two fight. If you're committed to yourself to get more secure, then practicing vulnerability and honest and direct communication with him, and eventually with everyone, is really important, no matter how he responds. His response isn't really personal and about you. It's through his own DA lens and lack of tools and getting triggered and his nervous system shutting down because he has attachment trauma, just like you have been handicapped by your FA and are working through it. You can't do anything about that except hold good boundaries, depersonalize his negative coping responses, be direct and open with him, let him have time to think and process and respond how he may when any triggering subsides, and fully accept his response even if you don't like it. Then choose what you want to do next. Which is why I agree with what your therapist suggested. If he's not ready to heal and get more secure and you are, you are likely going to hit a wall where you outgrow him. It's sad and will be worth mourning, but it's a distinct possibility, although good for you if you're also growing yourself on your personal journey. It's important that you see him for who he really is, though, not see his potential, not see him vilified as you focus on his negatives, just be neutral and authentic and curious without projecting anything. Good luck, no matter what happens next, you both have some hard and painful work ahead of you to untangle this. I hope, best case scenario, that he realizes he also wants to work through his own attachment wounding and you can have constructive and open conversations with each other.
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Post by somebodyiknow on May 15, 2020 21:28:23 GMT
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I love the idea of placing it all into thirds. You are so right about letting the blame go. I really really appreciate the time it took for you to respond so thoughtfully. ❤️
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Post by somebodyiknow on May 15, 2020 21:33:26 GMT
I know its a total push pull because the last time we had sex was when I had really started focusing on myself more. It attracted him to me.... Idk if it was anxious because I wasn't begging anymore or of it was because he felt less pressure or both. It gave me hope but it didn't last. It's been almost 6 months again.... I feel the same. I was married for 25 yrs and the sex and intimacy was great really good all the way through the relationship. Unfortunately I lost him a few years ago and my ex avoidant was my first and only bf since losing my husband. I now have to accept that we will never be compatible for anything solid and sustainable. Intimacy, sex, touch, open honesty, emotional maturity and trust are what I need to feel safe. We both tried to make it work but I never ever will we are just to different in our needs. Sad reality. I think it's become more apparent. I don't have a lot of hope based on the past but I'm trying to atleast be more clear with what I need and see if that works. Edited to add that I'm very sorry for your loss.
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Post by Helsbells on May 15, 2020 21:43:55 GMT
I feel the same. I was married for 25 yrs and the sex and intimacy was great really good all the way through the relationship. Unfortunately I lost him a few years ago and my ex avoidant was my first and only bf since losing my husband. I now have to accept that we will never be compatible for anything solid and sustainable. Intimacy, sex, touch, open honesty, emotional maturity and trust are what I need to feel safe. We both tried to make it work but I never ever will we are just to different in our needs. Sad reality. I think it's become more apparent. I don't have a lot of hope based on the past but I'm trying to atleast be more clear with what I need and see if that works. Edited to add that I'm very sorry for your loss. Bless you, none of this stuff is easy for all involved. My journey of discovery has been the most painful thing in my life to date. I just never felt safe enough for me in the relationship with my ex. He left me so many times after some conflict that I just know any future with him is totally unsustainable. We were both at fault because we were both addressing things from a complete opposite attachment and just couldn't give each other what we needed to feel safe and secure.
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Post by serenity on May 15, 2020 23:30:58 GMT
Just had a better than usual conversation.. It started as finances as he brought up how much money I had saved yesterday. I felt defensive at first because I wanted him to be real with why he was asking. I felt like he asked because he knows I'm uncomfortable and considering divorce. Knowing I have a bit of money saved I felt made him uncomfortable as he has kind of held over my head all he does for me. He did confirm that he has those thoughts. He did accuse me of controlling the narrative but I didn't let it mess up the goal I had for the conversation. I guess in a way I was controlling it but not in a toxic way. Regarding being accused of "controlling the narrative", I really feel for you and the issues you face there. The way I see it personally, when DA's are in a triggered state (usually triggered by closeness or conflict), their narrative is often a false and overly negative one, or at best highly skewed. And its not just DA's who do this... anyone with PTSD who is triggered will be prone to seeing things in an unbalanced or paranoid way . They need guidance to actively work on recognizing that its happening, and holding onto a balanced view of loved ones who trigger them (what psychologists refer to as "object constancy"). The problems DA's and their partners face is that the closeness and conflict that triggers DA's is a by-product of normal relationships, so the frequency of triggering is far more intense and can lead to very unfulfilling relationships. I guess I agree with your therapist too, that the best you can do is to keep trying to be heard and voicing your needs in simple terms. But I wanted to add that it helps if you try your best to have these conversations outside the times when your DA is severely triggered. The untriggered version of him is likely to be more reasonable.
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Post by somebodyiknow on May 16, 2020 4:19:43 GMT
Just had a better than usual conversation.. It started as finances as he brought up how much money I had saved yesterday. I felt defensive at first because I wanted him to be real with why he was asking. I felt like he asked because he knows I'm uncomfortable and considering divorce. Knowing I have a bit of money saved I felt made him uncomfortable as he has kind of held over my head all he does for me. He did confirm that he has those thoughts. He did accuse me of controlling the narrative but I didn't let it mess up the goal I had for the conversation. I guess in a way I was controlling it but not in a toxic way. Regarding being accused of "controlling the narrative", I really feel for you and the issues you face there. The way I see it personally, when DA's are in a triggered state (usually triggered by closeness or conflict), their narrative is often a false and overly negative one, or at best highly skewed. And its not just DA's who do this... anyone with PTSD who is triggered will be prone to seeing things in an unbalanced or paranoid way . They need guidance to actively work on recognizing that its happening, and holding onto a balanced view of loved ones who trigger them (what psychologists refer to as "object constancy"). The problems DA's and their partners face is that the closeness and conflict that triggers DA's is a by-product of normal relationships, so the frequency of triggering is far more intense and can lead to very unfulfilling relationships. I guess I agree with your therapist too, that the best you can do is to keep trying to be heard and voicing your needs in simple terms. But I wanted to add that it helps if you try your best to have these conversations outside the times when your DA is severely triggered. The untriggered version of him is likely to be more reasonable. I've had to overcome some of the same myself and still have to take breaks at times if a subject is particularly heated or something I'm passionate about. I understand it a lot better than I used to and often when I see him starting to look triggered (hey thanks hypervigilance) I tell him we can talk again later. If I don't reapproach it it never happens and that can be very draining. I appreciate you responding. I think I'll do a bit more reading on object constancy.
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Post by serenity on May 18, 2020 5:36:06 GMT
serenity , I wanted to ask - and we’ve talked about object constancy before briefly... but how do you think is a good way to frame that when explaining or sharing with a partner who has avoidant attachment and / or PTSD? Hi Caroline! <3 Thats very hard to answer, because people vary so much, from "willfully unaware" to "simply unaware" to "craving awareness". I've only really had easy, natural discussions about PTSD, triggers, and objective constancy with partners who were either psychologically trained, had been in therapy and diagnosed with PTSD, or people who are already on a path of self awareness and healing. Outside of that... trying to raise another person's self awareness is so difficult and painful, that I'd suggest that its best left to mental health professionals. With your guy, I know I've said it before, but I think your best bet is encourage him to get a proper diagnosis from a trauma therapist at some point. It will be hard to speak to him in real terms until he does this.
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