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Post by seeking on Jul 20, 2020 21:19:51 GMT
I think I'm AP, and also have some disorganized mixed in... I'm watching myself as I talk to new men from online dating... Been lots of opportunity to learn. I know I don't want to "settle," but eventually we have to "settle," right?  I am quick to dismiss someone - don't like his job, his height, his voice, etc. The thing is though sometimes I can't tell what "secure" would look like and if I'm being healthy or in my wounding/behavior. For instance, a guy reached out to me a while back and our emails we're lovely. We connected over loving Maine, and our dogs, etc. I eventually moved it to phone b/c while the emails were nice, there is a danger in not really knowing someone and feeling like you can "fall for someone" on email. I joked that another guy on the site said "Hi Beautiful" and that was a pet peeve b/c I didn't like when someone just approached me for my looks, and so he started saying "hi Beautiful" (I guess he missed the point of what I said) - and that's when I slowly started feeling myself turn away. We did a call and I wasn't impressed. Really nice guy but I could tell he was a little people-pleasy and surfacey, and that doesn't work for me. Life got busy and I let him know I was taking a break for a while. I didn't really think about him again. A couple days ago, he resurfaced. He was in Maine and seemed to be in a "romantic mood" - I was excited (vicariously living through anyone who gets to go to Maine right now) and so we had a few exchanges. Then he said, "I miss our talks." And I had this "huh?" feeling. I said "I think we talked once?" And he said "It was more than once." And I was like "oh." (To me it felt like 1x. What is there to 'miss' at that point???). So I "let that go" (Trying to not be so uber sensitive and avoidant-y) and then I get a text a little later that says "Wish you were here." And I basically said back "We don't really know each other, M." And he explained that he was just really happy and wanted to share it, etc. And so I basically said "What makes you so happy about Maine?" And he told me. And then later that night he called me and I didn't answer and he left a message that he'd call me later. Soooooo. This is where it's like 1. For me, I'm pretty particular about people "wishing I were here" when they haven't gotten to know me. I could be anyone - 2. But I am also not trying to be so overly particular that I end up alone the rest of my life. I do have a clear sense that the guy who is right for me would not say this and behave this way, but what does that matter!! Lol. That guy has never shown his face - or, at least not yet, lol. So am I being healthily cautious and smart about this or avoidant? Thanks! |
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 20, 2020 22:10:29 GMT
Sooooo.....I see more avoidance....being suspicious of the other person’s motives and reading into things. As you said, you really don’t know each other, but it almost as if you are looking for any sign that he is “not the one” before you even really know him. Just my thought from reading what you have above.
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Post by seeking on Jul 20, 2020 22:47:22 GMT
So saying "wish you were here" after a few emails and 1 phone conversation about nothing in particular doesn't seem like a red flag for codependency? I'm genuinely asking b/c I know I can get creative in my avoidance behaviors.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 21, 2020 0:01:43 GMT
seeking, you don't know each other. He may be feeling lonely and desperate for connection due to quarantine. Or he may be people-pleasing and projecting romantically all the time. I'd say you don't have enough information because you've talked once. The key to this stuff is consistency and giving someone enough time to show you who they are. This may not take long, if you're getting an off vibe and you can pinpoint why, listen to your gut. If it's just a general, I feel avoidant for no particular reason, you may be looking for excuses to distance from someone who seems unfamiliar and less attractive to you because they're emotionally available and that's not creating sparks. In this specific case, I would be put off if I told someone I didn't like something and they then started doing it knowing that. Seems like a respect and boundary issue. I've had guys project all over me, too. It feels gross and like they don't care to get to know me, they're insecure and want a fantasy bond. If you really believe that's what's going on, then you should cut it off and feel confident in your decision. Otherwise, all you need to decide is if you want to get to know him better or not. You don't need to talk obsessively. For example, you can tell him let's start slow and talk on the phone once a week, and he can text you some traveling photos too if he feels like it. Whatever you actually want and whatever your boundary is. Then see if that's working for you. AND if he respects your boundaries (not in a pretzel twisting people pleasing way, like just is cool with it and not over thinking it).
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Post by alexandra on Jul 21, 2020 0:05:38 GMT
Also, if you think he misunderstood you on the hi beautiful thing, the secure action was to tell him the next time he did it that it bothers you. Just turning away without ever communicating and clarifying that isn't very constructive.
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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 1:10:20 GMT
If it's just a general, I feel avoidant for no particular reason, you may be looking for excuses to distance from someone who seems unfamiliar and less attractive to you because they're emotionally available and that's not creating sparks.
This was exactly my worry.
My mom has a funny way of being SUPER CONCISE when I try to describe a new guy to her. And about this one she said "not a challenge" - which I thought was interesting. Like do I really want a challenge? I basically have PTSD from relationships at this point; a soft-landing would be nice!
But my last relationship felt ingratiating to me and it made me crazy. Like he wanted to please me all the time and was super romantic but it didn't feel like it was about me - it was more about him.
Think about it, if you have a woman standing in front of you - could be anyway, and you get to project all your warmth and affection and romance on to her that's about YOU not her.
I want someone *who can connect with me* not just project on me, and that's what it feels like this guy is doing.
In this specific case, I would be put off if I told someone I didn't like something and they then started doing it knowing that. Seems like a respect and boundary issue.
In his defense, I don't think he meant it this way; I think he just didn't pay attention what I said and got it wrong. Like he took it at me telling him someone said I was beautiful, so he started doing that, thinking it was what I wanted (even though I'd just said the opposite).
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Post by mrob on Jul 21, 2020 1:22:01 GMT
A couple of things In his defence as well.....
Beautiful doesn’t have to mean pretty. It can mean something of substance. I know a stunner who can be very ugly.
It’s easy to pick the daylights out of somebody who is trying to interact, when I’m in the triggered avoidant frame of mind, and see things that aren’t there, or be just too hard on people. Men don’t generally have woman quality relationships where gentle talking is involved. Men’s relationships are different, so what to you might seem like a poor conversation, to a man might be the highlight of his day. I think you’re being hard on him, but I understand that once an FA is deactivated, that’s pretty much it until the next cycle.
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Post by amber on Jul 21, 2020 2:26:25 GMT
I get what you mean. Ive started chatting to guys online and its very hard not to nitpick. I find a lot of men are terrible at asking questions, they'll answer my questions but not ask one back...im like, uh... is this a conversation or just me trying to get to know you? I get turned off very quickly by what I perceive as poor communication, but as a friend of mine said, women are much better generally at communicating than men. perhaps my expectations are just too high. I think we do have to give people a chance though, as not everyone can show you their best selves right at the beginning.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 21, 2020 2:49:31 GMT
Otherwise, all you need to decide is if you want to get to know him better or not. You don't need to talk obsessively. For example, you can tell him let's start slow and talk on the phone once a week, and he can text you some traveling photos too if he feels like it. Whatever you actually want and whatever your boundary is. Then see if that's working for you. AND if he respects your boundaries (not in a pretzel twisting people pleasing way, like just is cool with it and not over thinking it). seeking , I agree with mrob , and I want to highlight this part because it was the most important / actionable part of what I said and the only part of my message you didn't touch on yet
Also, incorporating amber 's point, and having done this myself, the insecure is scared. They don't trust themselves and / or others, and they are looking to protect themselves however they can. So (general you, not specifically you you) you talk about "settling" instead of choosing someone, you talk about where do I need to be extra diligent, you talk about lists and expectations and if people are perfect or not. And when it's getting that nitpicky, it is fear and lack of emotional availability within yourself. When insecures get their attachment wounds pressed and get overwhelmed, then they feel lots of stuff, including passion, which may allow them to override the fear through the energy they get through these feelings, and then you end up chasing attraction and the same old patterns of two emotionally unavailable people getting into fantasy relationship situations that eventually fall apart.
The way to counter-act this is, again, what I said before. Look at your goals in dating. If you want a relationship, you need to get to know someone first and see if they are consistent and if they prove to you over time that they deserve your trust. Don't start from a position of distrust, just, don't assume anything, don't project anything. Be curious about who they are, and let them tell you and show you (and see if the words and actions are consistently aligned as well). That's the red flag that matters. The other red flags will be rolled up into that and shake themselves out through observing inconsistency. It's not about, I'll be safe if I find someone who checks all my boxes. Yes, it's good to have dealbreaker boxes that you know you absolutely don't want. But if it's coming down to nitpicking on voice, looks, feeling uncomfortable about something totally superficial, that's where I think mrob is right about it being deactivation. Leave your own expectations at the door, and be present and feel out if you like them as people and if their values, life views, and goals are compatible with yours. If they are, and if they are safe, it takes time, but attachment and attraction should develop. If they aren't developing, but there's no clear explanation and you don't find them physically unattractive, it's most likely to be an insecure attacher emotional availability problem within yourself. That might mean they are not "the one" for you, but not because of THEM, because you are not ready to date an emotionally available partner yet and need to do more work on your own security first. There's nothing wrong with that if that's the case, but sometimes these "unexplained" warning signs are your gut telling you something IS wrong and you're not ready to date yet -- no matter who the other person is or how great they objectively may or may not be.
One thing that's been very interesting for me during the pandemic is, with my level of distancing, there can be no physical relationship without commitment. Which means there's zero rush towards intimacy, and I am more willing to just talk to people and meet people who I might ordinarily not... there's really no expectations with everything so up in the air, and my socializing is limited now by the pandemic so a date is no longer "pressure" to accomplish something. It's actually a couple hours where I can socialize and that in itself is worthwhile. If we also hit it off, have a good time, and the guy seems stable, and we want to see each other, even better. But if not, nothing is really lost either.
All you need to figure out with this guy is if you want to keep talking to him and getting to know him. If you choose to do that and not deactivate, but he still is making you feel projected upon (he wants you to be an ideal and fit a need in his life), then you have your answer. And then that is NOT you deactivating and nitpicking and fishing, that is a very legitimate reason you can verbalize to yourself to make you want to move on.
Perhaps, I don't know if this really would be helpful for you or not but typing this response made me think about it, you could make a list for yourself of what your dealbreakers are and what would turn you off about a guy that you KNOW is a real incompatibility / good reason (this list could even be if it wasn't you and a friend came to you for advice, what kind of flags would you point out to your friend that seem important versus what seems like excuses to distance?). And if you kind of like the guy as a person, and the reasons you're identifying aren't on your dealbreaker list, you give them a bit more time to show you who they are and get to know you openly as well.
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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 12:31:57 GMT
This is seriously brilliant. It literally feels like a biography of my relationship life put in such poignant terms.
When insecures get their attachment wounds pressed and get overwhelmed, then they feel lots of stuff, including passion, which may allow them to override the fear through the energy they get through these feelings, and then you end up chasing attraction and the same old patterns of two emotionally unavailable people getting into fantasy relationship situations that eventually fall apart.
So classic. I can still literally easily fantasy about the guy who ghosted me back in April. He hit the attachment wounds that sent me back into therapy (thank god), but I still have moments where I will think about texting him. I imagine the sex would be hot (even though he wasn't the best looking, etc). I imagine HE is what I wanted. HE fit the bill.
But this is why. Just what you said.
Ugh.
And Mr. text me "good morning" every morning on the dot, I will tire of it. I will come to silently hate him. I will scream at him or flip out or be mean to him and hurt him. I've done it. (In two other relationships, to be exact -- one who "got away" - said heck with me and my crazy and married someone -- and the other who was a codependent/love addict and drove me nuts, but still I was so nasty to him - like a scared/wounded animal).
My therapist said you are like a rescue dog. Lol. Someone has to have the stamina and their physiology has to be so that you're not constantly triggering THEIR abandonment wounds with your stuff.
I am going to try with this guy. But I know what's going to happen. If he's already this into me, and I haven't even done anything yet, we'll meet once and he'll start "falling in love" --- and I will be long gone and hurt him. So what's the point?
Isn't it then a good idea to have someone who triggers a bit of the wounds so they can be healed and there can be enough there to stick with it? Not like full-scale, but like a couple "doses" of it to create the bond? Or is that just like junkee thinking?
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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 12:48:08 GMT
"But if it's coming down to nitpicking on voice, looks, feeling uncomfortable about something totally superficial, that's where I think mrob is right about it being deactivation. Leave your own expectations at the door, and be present and feel out if you like them as people and if their values, life views, and goals are compatible with yours. "
My FA (or whatever I am - even though I'm posting in the wrong forum, I guess) is so bad that so far this guy is fine. We do seem to have the same values. But that already trips me up and I feel trapped - but he's not intelligent enough, he's overweight. He is a different "culture" than me. He acts young. So I don't want to like him. That's the other thing I do. If I find someone who ISN'T hitting my attachment wounds, I end up feeling "trapped" -
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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 12:52:46 GMT
I think mrob is right about it being deactivation.
I don't know what deactivation means here.
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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 12:57:24 GMT
One thing that's been very interesting for me during the pandemic is, with my level of distancing, there can be no physical relationship without commitment. Which means there's zero rush towards intimacy, and I am more willing to just talk to people and meet people who I might ordinarily not... there's really no expectations with everything so up in the air, and my socializing is limited now by the pandemic so a date is no longer "pressure" to accomplish something. It's actually a couple hours where I can socialize and that in itself is worthwhile. If we also hit it off, have a good time, and the guy seems stable, and we want to see each other, even better. But if not, nothing is really lost either.
Totally agree. However, I went on a date that should have been 45 mins but ended up being 3 hours b/c we probably both just wanted to socialize. And, yes, I'm talking to a lot of people I might ordinarily not so it's a good opportunity to observe and learn. And with not a lot of pressure, a different pace.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jul 21, 2020 13:08:35 GMT
"But if it's coming down to nitpicking on voice, looks, feeling uncomfortable about something totally superficial, that's where I think mrob is right about it being deactivation. Leave your own expectations at the door, and be present and feel out if you like them as people and if their values, life views, and goals are compatible with yours. "My FA (or whatever I am - even though I'm posting in the wrong forum, I guess) is so bad that so far this guy is fine. We do seem to have the same values. But that already trips me up and I feel trapped - but he's not intelligent enough, he's overweight. He is a different "culture" than me. He acts young. So I don't want to like him. That's the other thing I do. If I find someone who ISN'T hitting my attachment wounds, I end up feeling "trapped" - So basically this is similar to what Kittygirl said the other day regarding having the "defences" already in place from childhood and it feeling familiar, and you have the ability to navigate moreso? Would that be an apt description/relevant? Thais Gibson has mentioned F-A's can feel trapped, helpless to the thought of "love". |
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Post by seeking on Jul 21, 2020 13:21:27 GMT
Also, I shared this with my best friend. He was a bit of an "accomplice" in my recent freak out around "good morning beautiful" guy.
There were two guys of the same name.
One is exactly the picture of my attachment wounds and it's pure attraction and we got off to that right away with pretty explicit "chatting" until I cut it off. He also lives in another state (you see where this is going, right?) We started texting again, but I knew it had that flavor of the old stuff that is SO SO POWERFUL but I don't want it anymore. I have a kid and I'm "sobering up" here.
So "good morning" guy - the guy I've been talking about here, has the same name and texted me recently (as I've said). He also wrote: "I need to pick up the ball and pursue you more attentively henceforth. You are worth it."
I took a picture of the texts and sent it to my friend. He saw the name (thought it was the first guy) and was like "Looks like he would be fun and his text packs a punch."
When I told him which guy it was, he was like, 'Oh, ew."
THIS DOESN'T HELP ME.
Why does my friend want to ENABLE ME?
His words had impact and got me scared off again. I was looking for some support. But I should have probably said that. But like someone said, since I don't trust myself with this, I do look to other people and am *so sensitive* to their responses, and often they just DO NOT GET IT!
My friend loves guy #1 - thinks that's how it "should be" and "should feel" and that's "not settling"- so it's hard to have support around this. But I did share this with him today so he isn't inadvertently encouraging me to be with people who are bad for me.
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