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Post by iz42 on Oct 16, 2020 1:51:19 GMT
Thanks serenity. I appreciate your note. I haven't watched much Thais Gibson stuff but I'll check out her videos. Hope you're doing ok!! <3 |
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 16, 2020 2:55:00 GMT
Just something to consider. What is important... AP=needs, DA=boundaries, FA=vacillates between the two. Although Mary is correct that externalizing validation is not a great choice.....for APs, this really isn’t a choice...it was a matter of survival. If I don’t know if mom or dad will be happy with me or not...then I will try to anticipate things while trying to control how they act towards me by altering my behavior....and at the same time, trying to get the love I need through looking for validation that they still love me, am I enough etc. The issue is..as Mary pointed out....this behavior to someone who is DA or FA leaning avoidant will be exhausting which just perpetuates that old pattern and my needs never get met and my partner’s boundaries get triggered and he pulls away. It really does take 2 people who are reacting towards each other out of their attachments to create the dance. I am not saying 1 is right and 1 is wrong...but that both are wrong for each other. That's a helpful perspective. Thanks tnr9. I'm think I'm partly trying to picture how things would work in a healthy, secure dynamic. Obviously there is self-work that needs to be done outside of a relationship to get to a point where I, as someone with AP tendencies, have self-soothing techniques. I would want to make sure I'm not putting too much pressure on my partner to validate me and that I'm able to communicate my needs in an appropriate way. We all (even secure people) have needs and expectations in relationships, right? I guess I hope that if I were feeling frustrated with something that my partner was doing or wanted to explain why I was having a particular reaction, they would be receptive and try to understand. Then we could resolve the conflict and move on. In my previous relationship we never moved on--it was an endless loop of me trying to explain and him shutting down. I'm not trying to put all the blame on him or saying his behavior was bad, I'm just saying that I would not allow myself to be a situation where I was stuck in a cycle like this. Soooo....I think a healthy relationship starts with self...meaning, having a good relationship with yourself, be your own advocate and best best friend. No one is perfect, but I find that people who are secure are secure in who they are....they have needs and they have boundaries....but they are clear about both to their partner and if their partner cannot meet them at that level, then they wish that person well and move on. Perhaps the lesson in al of this is not to wonder why he could be empathetic towards you, but rather....why you stayed with him even when he wasn’t truly there for you. What was the attraction? What was the hope? What was the story? Because we don’t stay with people unless we are getting something from the relationship. So what were you getting or hoping to get? |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 16, 2020 4:16:58 GMT
That's a helpful perspective. Thanks tnr9. I'm think I'm partly trying to picture how things would work in a healthy, secure dynamic. Obviously there is self-work that needs to be done outside of a relationship to get to a point where I, as someone with AP tendencies, have self-soothing techniques. I would want to make sure I'm not putting too much pressure on my partner to validate me and that I'm able to communicate my needs in an appropriate way. We all (even secure people) have needs and expectations in relationships, right? I guess I hope that if I were feeling frustrated with something that my partner was doing or wanted to explain why I was having a particular reaction, they would be receptive and try to understand. Then we could resolve the conflict and move on. In my previous relationship we never moved on--it was an endless loop of me trying to explain and him shutting down. I'm not trying to put all the blame on him or saying his behavior was bad, I'm just saying that I would not allow myself to be a situation where I was stuck in a cycle like this. Soooo....I think a healthy relationship starts with self...meaning, having a good relationship with yourself, be your own advocate and best best friend. No one is perfect, but I find that people who are secure are secure in who they are....they have needs and they have boundaries....but they are clear about both to their partner and if their partner cannot meet them at that level, then they wish that person well and move on. Perhaps the lesson in al of this is not to wonder why he could be empathetic towards you, but rather....why you stayed with him even when he wasn’t truly there for you. What was the attraction? What was the hope? What was the story? Because we don’t stay with people unless we are getting something from the relationship. So what were you getting or hoping to get? I don’t think it matters anymore why he wasn’t very empathetic with me. I just want to learn how to take better care of myself next time. When we first met I was recovering from a breakup and not looking for anything serious. I was the one wanting space. After a few months he came to me and said he wanted to be in a more committed relationship. At that point I had developed feelings and it made things that much harder when he inevitably started distancing. I think I got hooked trying to convince him to understand why it hurt so much when he put distance between us. It was probably a familiar dynamic as my parents had similar issues with communication. I’m sure I absorbed a lot of that. I really thought that if I could just get through to him our relationship would somehow stabilize. I neglected myself and my own needs. I’ve done enough work now to see that if you have to convince someone over and over to treat you the way you want to be treated, it’s not a good situation. I do feel like I know what my boundaries are now and I can’t imagine ever getting so far along with someone who didn’t support me. Part of this is that I never learned healthy conflict resolution. I’m practicing having better boundaries with friends and it’s been amazing. I just think that the kind of messy fights I got into with my ex were very familiar and I had trouble seeing how we were in this anxious avoidant trap that was never going to improve (or more likely, I did see that but I wasn’t ready to take steps to change it). I read Attached in the middle of our relationship and tried to talk to him about it but it took until last year for me to really see that I had been AP and understand why I had participated in something so unhealthy. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 16, 2020 4:19:26 GMT
I guess my own opinion about that is intermittent reinforcement dynamics in a relationship take on a life of their own. And its a stealthy thing..it happens because the relationship started out with consistency, and flipped at some point to a state of inconsistency. I honestly have seen no evidence that only "X" type is vulnerable to this. It seems secures, Anxiously attached FA's and AP's all become "trapped" in a way by intermittent reinforcement. Even animals do. It works on something limbic within us, related to oestracisation anxiety and then biological factors turn it into an addiction.
Its too simple to suggest that a victim of intermittent reinforcement "just move on" and its also a kind of victim blaming. It takes a process to first recognise it for what it really is, then a process of dedicated detachment, and usually a period of space lasting months as neurotramsmiters and hormones rebalance. Its as complicated and difficult as beating a drug addiction that noone warns you about..
If we were taught all this in school and knew the dangers, then we could possibly make ourselves more accountable. But usually avoiding intermittent reinforcment relationships takes experience and pain. I know I wouldn't put myself through it again, knowing what it was now, and just how much it takes to get out of it.
I don't blame my exes for it either. They are vulnerable people who experience intimacy as a threat. They were only trying to get comfortable, and when they couldn't, they used all kinds of distancing strategies and relationship sabotage to get to a place that felt safe. I feel sad, if anything, that they are people who can't experience and embrace love in the way I can, and I know they feel pain because of it.
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 16, 2020 10:05:07 GMT
Soooo....I think a healthy relationship starts with self...meaning, having a good relationship with yourself, be your own advocate and best best friend. No one is perfect, but I find that people who are secure are secure in who they are....they have needs and they have boundaries....but they are clear about both to their partner and if their partner cannot meet them at that level, then they wish that person well and move on. Perhaps the lesson in al of this is not to wonder why he could be empathetic towards you, but rather....why you stayed with him even when he wasn’t truly there for you. What was the attraction? What was the hope? What was the story? Because we don’t stay with people unless we are getting something from the relationship. So what were you getting or hoping to get? I don’t think it matters anymore why he wasn’t very empathetic with me. I just want to learn how to take better care of myself next time. When we first met I was recovering from a breakup and not looking for anything serious. I was the one wanting space. After a few months he came to me and said he wanted to be in a more committed relationship. At that point I had developed feelings and it made things that much harder when he inevitably started distancing. I think I got hooked trying to convince him to understand why it hurt so much when he put distance between us. It was probably a familiar dynamic as my parents had similar issues with communication. I’m sure I absorbed a lot of that. I really thought that if I could just get through to him our relationship would somehow stabilize. I neglected myself and my own needs. I’ve done enough work now to see that if you have to convince someone over and over to treat you the way you want to be treated, it’s not a good situation. I do feel like I know what my boundaries are now and I can’t imagine ever getting so far along with someone who didn’t support me. Part of this is that I never learned healthy conflict resolution. I’m practicing having better boundaries with friends and it’s been amazing. I just think that the kind of messy fights I got into with my ex were very familiar and I had trouble seeing how we were in this anxious avoidant trap that was never going to improve (or more likely, I did see that but I wasn’t ready to take steps to change it). I read Attached in the middle of our relationship and tried to talk to him about it but it took until last year for me to really see that I had been AP and understand why I had participated in something so unhealthy. There is a great article titled why you will marry the wrong person. It speaks to the familiar and how we are all drawn to it. I think intermittent reinforcement + a feeling of familiarity equals an incredibly difficult relationship to leave/end because there is this sense of wanting things to turn out differently.....as you said, it becomes an investment. Boyish, intermittently emotional available FA men are my weakness...I can fall “in fantasy love” with them in an instant. I get hooked into the “available”, protective, loving moments and tend to down play the “unavailable”, distant, avoidant ones. |
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Post by maryisback on Oct 16, 2020 13:52:17 GMT
I guess my own opinion about that is intermittent reinforcement dynamics in a relationship take on a life of their own. And its a stealthy thing..it happens because the relationship started out with consistency, and flipped at some point to a state of inconsistency. I honestly have seen no evidence that only "X" type is vulnerable to this. It seems secures, Anxiously attached FA's and AP's all become "trapped" in a way by intermittent reinforcement. Even animals do. It works on something limbic within us, related to oestracisation anxiety and then biological factors turn it into an addiction. Its too simple to suggest that a victim of intermittent reinforcement "just move on" and its also a kind of victim blaming. It takes a process to first recognise it for what it really is, then a process of dedicated detachment, and usually a period of space lasting months as neurotramsmiters and hormones rebalance. Its as complicated and difficult as beating a drug addiction that noone warns you about.. If we were taught all this in school and knew the dangers, then we could possibly make ourselves more accountable. But usually avoiding intermittent reinforcment relationships takes experience and pain. I know I wouldn't put myself through it again, knowing what it was now, and just how much it takes to get out of it. I don't blame my exes for it either. They are vulnerable people who experience intimacy as a threat. They were only trying to get comfortable, and when they couldn't, they used all kinds of distancing strategies and relationship sabotage to get to a place that felt safe. I feel sad, if anything, that they are people who can't experience and embrace love in the way I can, and I know they feel pain because of it. Victim? I don't think it's right that one person is a "victim" in the relationship. There are 2 people and they are both trapped in a sense. They are both in it because they are getting something (something not healthy but it is something). To boil this down to a "prey victim" is too simplistic. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 16, 2020 19:14:09 GMT
I guess my own opinion about that is intermittent reinforcement dynamics in a relationship take on a life of their own. And its a stealthy thing..it happens because the relationship started out with consistency, and flipped at some point to a state of inconsistency. I honestly have seen no evidence that only "X" type is vulnerable to this. It seems secures, Anxiously attached FA's and AP's all become "trapped" in a way by intermittent reinforcement. Even animals do. It works on something limbic within us, related to oestracisation anxiety and then biological factors turn it into an addiction. Its too simple to suggest that a victim of intermittent reinforcement "just move on" and its also a kind of victim blaming. It takes a process to first recognise it for what it really is, then a process of dedicated detachment, and usually a period of space lasting months as neurotramsmiters and hormones rebalance. Its as complicated and difficult as beating a drug addiction that noone warns you about.. If we were taught all this in school and knew the dangers, then we could possibly make ourselves more accountable. But usually avoiding intermittent reinforcment relationships takes experience and pain. I know I wouldn't put myself through it again, knowing what it was now, and just how much it takes to get out of it. I don't blame my exes for it either. They are vulnerable people who experience intimacy as a threat. They were only trying to get comfortable, and when they couldn't, they used all kinds of distancing strategies and relationship sabotage to get to a place that felt safe. I feel sad, if anything, that they are people who can't experience and embrace love in the way I can, and I know they feel pain because of it. Victim? I don't think it's right that one person is a "victim" in the relationship. There are 2 people and they are both trapped in a sense. They are both in it because they are getting something (something not healthy but it is something). To boil this down to a "prey victim" is too simplistic. I agree that harmful people can be victims of their own traumas. But when a person chooses to harm another, and is fully aware of the impact, then they, alone, are the perpetrator. And the recipient of that harm is the victim. So many of us got trapped for years in bad relationships because we didn't see it that way. We understood, we loved, we tried to change ourselves and compromise, we depersonalised. When what we really needed to do was remove ourselves from harms way. |
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 16, 2020 21:00:39 GMT
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Post by iz42 on Oct 16, 2020 21:18:26 GMT
I don't know whether my ex knew that he was harming me or did it intentionally. I'm sure he would say I harmed him when I got anxious and kept trying to push him into relating to me differently. All I know is that if I had approached it from a standpoint of taking care of myself and looking out for my own interests, I would have followed my instincts, set stronger boundaries from the beginning, and walked away when I realized that he couldn't give me the kind of stability and emotional intimacy I was looking for. I think these are the most important lessons. At one point very early on I did actually break up with him because I was having trouble trusting him - he told me how much he cared about me and convinced me to try again. I now see his focus on sexual sparks as a red flag too, and it says a lot that he basically puts an expiration date on all of his relationships by saying that he's done when the spark is gone. In our case, that meant that he wanted to see other women and downgrade me to friend status but still have sex. I used to think that the kind of heartbreak I experienced with my ex is inevitable, but as long as I'm aware of the dynamics and my tendencies, I don't think it is. It's disappointing when something doesn't work out and I tend to get pessimistic and frustrated with dating, but tying myself in knots trying to make someone love me and then getting rejected over and over REALLY hurt. I know I willingly walked into that dynamic, but it was just unbelievably painful. I can see how feeling more secure in myself makes a difference in what I am attracted to and willing to put up with. tnr9 thanks for the article! I'll read it tonight. |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 17, 2020 1:54:22 GMT
So I have to admit that I continue to have some magical thinking about this ex’s new relationship, which is different than the one he was in when I first started posting here last year. I catch myself when my brain starts going in that direction and can usually redirect, but it still comes up. I have this belief that because he has become more reliable and stable now that he is sober and more successful in his career, that he must be more mature and his latest partner will “crack the code” so to speak. Before I cut off contact he told me had been thinking about wanting to get married (not to anyone in particular, just in general), which was shocking because he always said he would never marry. I think I’m trying to emotionally prepare myself for him to get married to the person he is dating. I’m actually embarrassed admit this. I hope that in time I can completely let go. I want to be in a place where I don’t feel at all affected by him or his current life. I’ve read enough threads here to know that magical thinking about an ex’s new relationship is counterproductive for my own healing. It’s really not useful to speculate about his new situation and I’m going to stop here. It’s just helpful to write this down to start to process it.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 17, 2020 3:03:15 GMT
iz42, I know this is a comparison trap issue, but I also hope this will be generally somewhat consoling... just because someone commits legally to marriage doesn't mean they commit to being a good partner (even if they believe they intend to be). I've seen how the stories play out very long-term with some exes in my life. In fact, another one recently got engaged who never fully commit to anyone before. Is there a twinge of feelings about that news? A nostalgic twinge, yes, I'm human, even though we dated for a long time almost 15 years ago. But... when I see how he portrays his life during the pandemic, I'm also relieved I do not have to deal with him (because I'd be anxious about his level of social distancing all the time). And I've felt similar relief after every weird mutual friend story I've heard about him the last few years. I think it's far less about my ex's fiancee cracking his code and far more that he got just stable enough to commit (maybe?) and found someone just unstable enough to meet him at the actual level at which he can provide commitment. And it works for them, and that's cool (social media tells me, for example, she's social distancing in the same iffy capacity as he is). But with all the work I've done for myself, would that level work for me? I don't think so, we're not actually so compatible even though he's not a bad person. So, it's truly not the comparison issue it appears. It doesn't particularly reflect on me in any way beyond, we simply didn't work out and went our separate ways.
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 17, 2020 4:02:22 GMT
So I have to admit that I continue to have some magical thinking about this ex’s new relationship, which is different than the one he was in when I first started posting here last year. I catch myself when my brain starts going in that direction and can usually redirect, but it still comes up. I have this belief that because he has become more reliable and stable now that he is sober and more successful in his career, that he must be more mature and his latest partner will “crack the code” so to speak. Before I cut off contact he told me had been thinking about wanting to get married (not to anyone in particular, just in general), which was shocking because he always said he would never marry. I think I’m trying to emotionally prepare myself for him to get married to the person he is dating. I’m actually embarrassed admit this. I hope that in time I can completely let go. I want to be in a place where I don’t feel at all affected by him or his current life. I’ve read enough threads here to know that magical thinking about an ex’s new relationship is counterproductive for my own healing. It’s really not useful to speculate about his new situation and I’m going to stop here. It’s just helpful to write this down to start to process it. So brene brown has an awesome way of dealing with magical thinking. She will say aloud...the story in my head is.....and then speak to what the magical thinking is. Speaking to it out loud as a story is very powerful and allows your emotions to get a pause from reacting. B did a lot of firsts with his gf after me.....and it is too easy to assume that these firsts point to positive changes... but....I have no way of knowing. I was told he proposed 8 months after making them FB official and married her 1 month later. I do wish them well. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 17, 2020 4:56:22 GMT
iz42, I am sure your ex did love you, you are a beautiful person and he was your partner for a long time. And if you asked him today he'd likely say that he loves you imo. Our hearts are able to love more than one person, and loving someone new doesn't mean the love he had for you is gone. That love takes a long time to fade for DA's, the ones I've known. They detach very slowly and cry for people who stuck with them who they lost decades ago. They can find it very hard to ajust to real friendship because they don't stop feeling love for you...which is the thing they're always pushing back from. Its like a dam that could burst for them, they can't stand the feeling of their neediness crashing in.
And i know that sounds strange when they do everything to sabotage the relationship when you're in it. But that behaviour has so little to do with whats really in their heart.
Out of all my exes, DA's and avoidant FA's were the ones who never really stopped loving me (or anyone they had let close). They've said so many times of the last 15-20 years, and I do believe them. If you can detach enough, they can make really terrific friends. But they need to do a lot of work to be good partners.
I don't know if this is the right advice at all. But when I feel a lot of bad energy in a relationship that still matters to me, if I think the timing is right I'll reach out and speak from the heart. Catch up on news, Tell them I love them and care. They usually say the same back. Wish them well if they are with someone new. Sometimes you can laugh at the dumb stuff that happened. I feel rebalanced when that happens.
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Post by iz42 on Oct 17, 2020 23:36:38 GMT
iz42 , I know this is a comparison trap issue, but I also hope this will be generally somewhat consoling... just because someone commits legally to marriage doesn't mean they commit to being a good partner (even if they believe they intend to be). I've seen how the stories play out very long-term with some exes in my life. In fact, another one recently got engaged who never fully commit to anyone before. Is there a twinge of feelings about that news? A nostalgic twinge, yes, I'm human, even though we dated for a long time almost 15 years ago. But... when I see how he portrays his life during the pandemic, I'm also relieved I do not have to deal with him (because I'd be anxious about his level of social distancing all the time). And I've felt similar relief after every weird mutual friend story I've heard about him the last few years. I think it's far less about my ex's fiancee cracking his code and far more that he got just stable enough to commit (maybe?) and found someone just unstable enough to meet him at the actual level at which he can provide commitment. And it works for them, and that's cool (social media tells me, for example, she's social distancing in the same iffy capacity as he is). But with all the work I've done for myself, would that level work for me? I don't think so, we're not actually so compatible even though he's not a bad person. So, it's truly not the comparison issue it appears. It doesn't particularly reflect on me in any way beyond, we simply didn't work out and went our separate ways. Yes, these are all good points. Thank you for sharing that story about your ex, alexandra . Beyond the comparison trap I think there is also regret and frustration because I supported my former partner in many ways and helped him build the more stable life he has now. In the few interactions we've had over the past year he has been much more reliable and respectful. When we met 5 years ago he was struggling with addiction and had trouble holding down a job, so from the outside it seems sort of like a night and day difference. He's even in a position to buy a house now. By all accounts he's come a long way, which makes me feel like if we were together now things would be different. This doesn't actually matter because he hasn't expressed a desire to be with me. Also I guess just because he's turned his life around, it doesn't mean that the deeper emotional stuff has magically gone away. I wouldn't want to wait around for him to realize he is FA and that he has work to do. He's only known his new girlfriend for a few months and even if they do get married, I don't see it being easy for him to maintain closeness. p.s. I want to say that I appreciate everyone here so much. These boards have been a lifeline for me! |
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Post by serenity on Oct 18, 2020 0:43:24 GMT
Yes, these are all good points. Thank you for sharing that story about your ex, alexandra . Beyond the comparison trap I think there is also regret and frustration because I supported my former partner in many ways and helped him build the more stable life he has now. In the few interactions we've had over the past year he has been much more reliable and respectful. When we met 5 years ago he was struggling with addiction and had trouble holding down a job, so from the outside it seems sort of like a night and day difference. He's even in a position to buy a house now. By all accounts he's come a long way, which makes me feel like if we were together now things would be different. This doesn't actually matter because he hasn't expressed a desire to be with me. Also I guess just because he's turned his life around, it doesn't mean that the deeper emotional stuff has magically gone away. I wouldn't want to wait around for him to realize he is FA and that he has work to do. He's only known his new girlfriend for a few months and even if they do get married, I don't see it being easy for him to maintain closeness. p.s. I want to say that I appreciate everyone here so much. These boards have been a lifeline for me! Hugs iz42, Alexandras right, when you see how these things play out over time, you realize its not exactly what you thought in your darkest moments. Over time they usually settle on a negative mindset about partners... find fatal flaws and reject them. And in future years they can completely do an about face and love those same things. They can get married, and you see those marriages fail. You can become the phantom ex though you felt treated like garbage when you were with them. The two DA's i dated in my 20's are in their 50's now. One got married and had kids, and is divorced now (very messy and costly divorce) and living with his mother now. He's not in a good way. The other just never settled, and hasn't dated in over a decade. Sending love. Appreciate you a whole lot too <3 |
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