How should I break this cycle?

Hi T,
Well a lot of paticence is properly a good thing. "Be there without making demands" - kind of thing 

What is your own attatchemntstyle ?
For how long have you been dating ?
What do you "do" when you are dating ?
Do you just sit still and talk infront of the computer or ?
How do you sit on your chair when you are on the computer ? If you are leaning into the screen, you can be percived as a threat. Also our eyes can get fixated by looking into a screen.(like a predator animal that is fixated on its pray) There are different tips and tricks you can use to soften your eyes and regulating you own and her nerveussystem (co regulation). It is important to use a soft and a singsonging tone of voice, and use a non threating look in your face and bodylanguage ect.
www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EfkmuNm55us

Some tips and insights about what could be going on inside of her: (maybe she is not being imature, but shes just gone way out of her own "window of tolerance"):

The desorganised
Needs that things develops slow even if they can move fast themselves, things has to be clear, the respect of boundaries is important to them in relationships. If they are very desorganised they can find it difficult to feel their own and the other persons boundaries. If they are less desorganised they can maybe feel their boundaries but then they can doubt if their boundaries are okay
That there is clarity in the relationship. No ambiguities. Clear communication. However they may well have problems being clear and direct themselves.Smalll steps
Important that boundaries are respected and lovingly set.
The desorganised can be  looking out for small cues, and they can suddenly push the other away, give up and think: "This Will never Work and IT dosent even matter anyway"

Tips to when you are dating a desorganised (FA):
You may already have heard of unpredictable events, drama stories ect. They can share too much information about themselves.
They can Be VERY facinating to Be With. Creative and feminine.
They can interrupt themselves in sentences. Especially when they talk about the past.
They can use black and white, either / or thinking.
Esther you're my friend or my enemy
You can go into an adventure with Them with lots of intensity, making love all the time, you can spend a Lot of time together,  having fun, they can move in together fast.
Be prepared that you do not know what is going to happen. The relationship can end abruptly.
Be clear about your boundaries. Say clearly no and clearly yes.
Be clear, use short sentences. Rest in yourself.
Look at the examble with the dog Valdemar with desorganised trauma. Remember the desorganised likes
to be in control. So in the dating phase try to let the desorganised take the initiative.

On the unconscious/subconscious level the desorganized can date and think about the purpose of a relationship:
Can the other person cope with me, make me feel safe and loved, help me protect me from feeling crazy even if he/she has to cope with all my drama /even if I can create a lot of drama in the relationship.

The desorganised can go into panicmode when they are getting to know someone.
Even if they feel they have to get away, they are still interested.
They have to be aware of any over/underdog dynamics.
They also have to be aware of boundaries.(their own and the other persons boundaries)
Titrating in dating can be usefull

Remember to focus on being loving to yourself when you date are dating someone with desorganised attatchmentstyle.
Do not be pushy!!!
.If the disorganized moves too fast, then be gentle and loving. Say you just have to be able to follow, but that you are still interested. Is there is drama, land your own and the other' persons nervous system. The disorganized can be confused. While the ambivalent may be in doubt.

More tips:
Examine these topics to preserve your own health inside of a bond shared with a loved one with attachment injury or trauma.
Can You Maintain Healthy Boundaries?
We cannot change others, but we can control our reaction to their behavior. When your loved one or family member displays attachment injury, can you walk away or realize that their behavior is not truly related to you? This is difficult sometimes, as individuals often lash out due to chaotic emotions and the inability to self-regulate.
Letting your loved one know your boundaries can benefit you – and them. Is your loved one ready for help? If they are unaware of the area of attachment therapy, pointing him or her toward resources to help with secure attachment might be of value.

Display Sensitivity and Attunement
Realize that everyone comes from a subjective place. Often, showing attunement and compassion for your loved one with attachment injury gives them a taste of secure attachment while also setting a good example. It is possible to heal attachment at any age.

Attunement strategies include verbal and non-verbal qualities:
Affirmations
Acknowledgments
Active listening
Mirroring body language
Eye contact
Through attunement, your loved one can feel more secure, and being with less insecure people is far more pleasant.

Don’t Go on the Defensive
If your loved one shares a feeling with you, “I feel like my family doesn’t love or support me.” Or, “Everyone always lets me down.” Don’t come back with an immediate rebuttal. Respond while keeping in mind that it is their reality, their feelings. A compassionate response will validate their feelings and avoid the barrier that often arises with an instant rebuttal.
Sometimes we need to feel heard.

Good phrases to repair a disorganized attachment with your partner or other:
I notice you, and what you need
I'm sorry, I scared you
I want to protect you, and you can count on me
Let me make things clear for you

If your partner runs off and is triggered/situational triggered:
Remember they are looking for love and at the same time gets frightened by it.
You can try give your partner contact every day, if it feels natural to you.
But only short!
By sms short and loving.
By phone short and loving
If you meet, short and loving
Be clear in your communication.
No ambiguities. No long explanations. Brief/short, concistent and loving

If your partner could be under a lot of stress and stops the relationship out of nowhere:
Find out if there are many things happening in your partners life, so it's clear if your partners thoughts fly around on everything else. For example, a new apartment, a new job and a life as a student after some years of sabbath. Right now, your partners behavior is not normal, but you interpret it as a natural stage and do not know if you should let your partner push you away and sometimes hurt you every time, but support your partners situation right now and hope for a few days / weeks a normal level again? Does your partner ends up feeling sorry for her/his behavior and is willing to fight for it?
Solution:
Keep on having the dialogue with your partner.
Remind your partner, that there is so much happening in her/his life right now, that it might be overwhelming for her/him. Investigate what kind of support, that overwhelmed part of your partner needs

Remember - If you have too much threat going on in a relationship, you'll lose the part of your brain that's actually interested in connection, intimacy, love, authenticity, and vulnerability.

jebkinnisonforum.com/post/13491/

jebkinnisonforum.com/post/24518/

jebkinnisonforum.com/post/24584/

jebkinnisonforum.com/post/24490/ - The dog Valdemar
"The VAL method:
One of my friends has a dog called Valdemar. It has trauma and acts nerve-wracking to anyone other than my friend. Even she had to treat him carefully so as not to scare him away.
We went for a walk in the park and I pretended that Valdemar was not there, otherwise he would die of fear. At one point my friend would give me a treat I could give to the dog. I went there and held my hand as I walked, pretendend that the dog wasent there. After a while the dog came gently to me and took the treat. And I could also pat him.
I wanted to give the dog another treat and forgot to move carefully. I turned around and saw the dog into its eyes as I stretched out my hand with a treat.
The dog was getting a heart attack, so scared it became.
The dog jumped away with a kneejerk reaction.
It was too dangerous with my direct way.
This was also how it worked with my boyfriend.
Every time I reached out to him, he jumped away.
My method was to let my boyfriend come quietly to me.
My friend claimed that this method worked for most people. The method was to be there without making demands. Neither inside my head. The method was to rest in myself, just to be me.

I was curious about, what my boyfriend did without me having any projects on his behalf about what to do or not to do.
The more I practiced this method, the more it looked like love.
Wanting his best and my own best at the same time and giving freedom.

There was no sacrifice in this method and it did not require a lot of energy. It was just different from my auto pilot, that would be at the forefront of everything and have control.

My boyfriend became more attentive and he gave everything that I had longed for: closeness, enthusiasm, ease. Laughing together and having fun together at all levels."

There's also a possibility that she is testing your masculinity ?:
jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1052/story-dating-life


You can use deadlines, to make sure that you are not getting warned out
jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1864/deadlines

timtim, she is acting like FAs typically act. For now, this is who she is and you shouldn't expect her to change. This is how the relationship will be. Why are you looking to pursue someone you see as "immature" who you want to change to suit your needs? You date the person in front of you, not their potential. If you need her to change and try to date potential, you are setting both of you up for failure and a painful power struggle.

You can only break the cycle by not participating. You either be you and consistent, without keeping score, and see if she responds in kind, or you leave due to incompatibility. She's not going to change unless she wants to driven by her own motivations in life that are fully unrelated to you. As you probably would do the same and not respond well if she wanted to change you in some large way and didn't accept you as you are.

So, this is pretty enmeshing....this idea that through your actions she will change.....she is an adult and as such, she gets to have full autonomy over her life and actions.  If she chooses to stay immature and thus have to deal with the negative ramifications of those behaviors....so be it.  You be responsible for you....if this isn’t what you want, do what is best for you irrespective if she responds positively to it or not...but if you continue down the road of trying to change her....you will simply become more resentful.  People changing for others is the stuff of Hollywood movies.

timtim, we're not trying to discourage you. We're speaking from experience of been there, done that with avoidant partners, and giving you that perspective to consider. I've felt the same way, I care and want to help, maybe I can introduce attachment theory, they're struggling and unhappy in life and this will help, plus our relationship will be better too, etc. (Plus tnr9 is FA, so she is giving good advice.)

What I've learned from experience is, if the person isn't asking for help, they don't want it and probably aren't ready. You can tell her attachment theory exists and gauge her reaction, but beyond that, if she doesn't take initiative from there to find out more then she's not at that point in her process yet that she'll confront her trauma. Trauma you didn't cause nor can you fix. And that's very personal and you can't "do" anything to help her with that, get her there, inspire her... she needs to have already gotten there on her own.

What I've also learned is wanting to "help" in that way is a form of bad boundaries and therefore reflecting insecurity on our side. You're not accepting the other person as they are and therefore are trying to exert a form of control in a way. The "help" will make an FA panic anyway, sensing a threat to their autonomy, since they shift between fearing enmeshment and engulfment, and fearing abandonment.

I've dated many FAs and seen over years how their lives played out. None of my FA exes ever changed and they repeat themselves in unhappy and unsatisfying relationships with new partners, but only check out emotionally instead of physically because they had further commitments as they got older (ie children). They were never ready to face all the trauma that led to the attachment style, and they may never be ready since I've read studies that say only 25% of people shift attachment styles over the course of their lives. And for me, it took years of conscious work to do it. Not an easy thing, which is why it requires someone to be motivated to want to change aspects of their painful lives, even if they don't know it in the framework of "attachment theory." Usually this motivation only comes when it's finally too painful NOT to change.

As an aside, if you are actually open to feedback about yourself as you said in your post, saying you're normally secure but swing avoidant under stress is perhaps a signal to look into the possibility that your style is more avoidant. Not as a criticism at all, but from the perspective that attachment styles are actually reflections of your behavioral patterns under stress versus how you feel normally. When I was AP before taking a couple years to earn secure, when I wasn't stressed or triggered I seemed very secure. But I was still textbook AP because stress triggered my fear of abandonment, and that's how I made all my romantic relationship decisions (plus it explained my constant attraction to avoidants, and why my decisions were always to choose avoidant partners).

I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do with her! But acting as you need to for yourself, which means showing her affection as you wish to and not changing your behavior because you feel like you're walking on eggshells (even though she's not directly communicating anything including that she wants you to act differently), and being consistent and just being who you are, and maybe even mentioning attachment theory once then leaving it at that, is the way to go. If she gets scared off by it, then she's not ready and you're not compatible at this time, and that's okay. It's still the healthiest approach. If she is at a point in her life that she's ready for change, she'll let you know.

I haven't formally asked her yet what she wants in a partner, but it's a good idea, next time I will bring it up.
I do remember though once she said that in her view her sister and her brother-in-law are an ideal/best couple because they both constantly try to improve each other and help each other grow (I can't remember exact words but this was the jist)
So I will offer help in form of making a suggestion to see a therapist, if she rejects the suggestion then so be it!

It's true. People define "improve" very differently. It may be more on a surface level -- we help each other pursue hobbies, you make me a better cook, you go out running with me and help me stick to my exercise schedule, you help me ignore my problems and have fun so I'm a more relaxed person -- not on an interpersonal level. So direct communication and asking is important.

Personally, my FA exes defined goals in ways that made no sense to me once I got more detailed answers. If I assumed they wanted things similar to me and how I'd expect, I was wrong. In my case, I was very interested in self-growth and introspection, together or apart. They were not. Bringing up a therapist was like an immediate shutdown response... sometimes they'd begrudgingly say they had thought about going and knew they should, yet never did. You aren't receptive if you're too uncomfortable to even talk about it :/ And when I had a textbook insecure attachment style, I was the same way because there is a defensive stigma against therapy in my family. It's considered an insult.