KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Jan 13, 2021 8:04:57 GMT
Hello,
it's funny. I suppose some of you ran into the same frustrating thing i do now, from time to time, depending on people.
Of course, when you breakup, and even more so when you break up having been in an emotionnally abusive relationship, you have to do a lot of talking. Unwind. At least that is my case. So your friends, family hear a lot about your stories.
-In my case, as she most certainly is an extreme FA (maybe borderline?), i had the very radical on/off breakup.
So of course, you sound like the innocent stupid guy that could'nt see "she was not that into you".
-Concerning her going back to her mediocre ex bf (her own words) straight away =
"sometimes people express hating somebody because in fact they are still in love". What ? Really ? Well, people that don't have a damn clue about what's going on inside of them, maybe. I saw that in very cheap romantic comedies, yes : the girl seemingly hating the guy all along, and all of a sudden, it turns into sexual tension, and bam, they are madly in love. But in real life, nope. "she was trying to convince herself that she wasn't in love with him anymore". all right. sigh. she was probably also trying to convince herself that she was head over heels in love with me at the same time. But why would she do that ? She could have just go back to him straight away.. Not dramatic enough ? i know....
-And, last but not least, when i try to talk about the theory of attachment, "you shouldnt' put people into categories". "sometimes, it just doesn't work, you don't know why". You don't know why, but wouldn't you like to know ?? To some of my friends, i have the impression that i sound crazy when i try to explain that yes, it exists, yes it explains a lot, yes once you begin to compare what has been studied about the way people act and what you can personnally witness in your life or close people in your life, there are some troubling patterns.
It's like people don't want to know/are too afraid of finding out it's not that magical. Or it can be magical but also "technical". It's like people don't want to find out that maybe the earth is not flat. "we are perfectly content with our belief that the earth is flat, we don't want to know about gravity and stuff, leave us alone".
So i stopped. I still talk to some of my friends about that, when they seem to be more open to it. If not, i just listen to their way of thinking, or change subject, or don't comment. Sometimes it's very frustrating. I don't know about you, but here, in France, very few people know about attachment... except people that have been really abused. (i had the same thing when i was involved with an unaware bpd, then a DA, then an aware bpd)
So what do you think ? Do you have some funny stories about how you were trying to express what happened for you and your S.O and people were like "nooooo, it's not like that, it's more probably that ...."
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Post by serenity on Jan 14, 2021 5:03:41 GMT
Hi Kai, I have just been catching up on some forum posts and read about your recent experiences  I'm so sorry for the pain you've been experiencing. A sudden breakup with someone you loved, combined with feeling instantly replaced, is a deeply traumatic experience for many people. Most of us here have sought each other out because of the confusion, the pain, and like you mentioned, the lack of real-world validation from those close to us. I agree its a shame that knowledge of mental health issues and literacy are kind of rare. With loved ones, I believe its best to ask for comfort, or maybe even distration, rather than the deep validation only someone with mental health knowledge can give. Try to figure out what the people who love you can give right now?. Sometimes a hug when you cry is so comforting...do you have a sister, a mother, a friend, who can give you that? Also, its fine to ask them to listen and hear you, without giving you advice. Or you can ask them to do something fun with you. The people close in your life love you for a reason, and they care. Even if they can't give you the deep validation you may need right now, they can still help you through this awful pain. I'm so sorry for your loss. The breakup was the very worst kind, and you didn't do anything to deserve that. Please be gentle on yourself, these next weeks will be hard, but you will get through it. |
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Jan 14, 2021 8:55:48 GMT
Thank you, Serenity,
of course you are right. i no longer try to talk people about it. There is so much insight on this board... I guess it's better to try and mention it to people that are struggling in their relationship, rather that speak from the angle of somebody in pain like i am : people find it suspicious and some of them probably think i just want to cover for the lack of love on her part. Now, i think in fact, she was beginning to attach to me, and it triggered her, and it was easier afterwards to run back to that guy, because he was available, and had been waiting all along, and that she may not like him that much, i mean, she probably likes him, but for now, he is not a threat. That's an hypothesis. There are others of course. But, it would make some sense. i'm not trying to excuse her, but god, how lost she must be to act like that.
Anyway, it's been nightmarish. Still is, lol. Fortunately, there are also moments when i'm relieved, in a way. Others when i crave her and what we had. It's really like mourning. The person i've known and loved is now a very distant dream. And i'm still having a hard time understanding where she's gone and if she ever existed. Still having a hard time figuring out my part in all this, but i'm getting close to it.
Today, i have to go get my stuff back, she was very vague about being present or not. I guess she wanted to be able to decide until the last moment. If she's not present, it's gonna be another disappointment. (what? she didn't even have the courage to meet me ? I think that, and then i'm saying to myself :there are so much fears inside of her, i hope someday she will be able to deal with them in an healthy way), If she is there, it's gonna be tough, so anyway, it's gonna be an important and tough day today. Another step to take.
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Post by annieb on Jan 14, 2021 17:59:37 GMT
To sound harsh, probably, we all at the beginning of our journey fell into psychoanalyzing our avoidant partner to basically feel better about ourselves. Because if we "figured them out", we would be in control. This is a good place for you to start letting go of that notion and see what it feels like if this is not in your control and that your friends are also right, there could be a million other reasons why it fell apart. That is a place of strength, to not care and wish them the best. And work on ourselves. Once you work on yourself, you understand the other person did you a favor to give you this opportunity.
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Jan 14, 2021 19:04:19 GMT
To sound harsh, probably, we all at the beginning of our journey fell into psychoanalyzing our avoidant partner to basically feel better about ourselves. Because if we "figured them out", we would be in control. This is a good place for you to start letting go of that notion and see what it feels like if this is not in your control and that your friends are also right, there could be a million other reasons why it fell apart. That is a place of strength, to not care and wish them the best. And work on ourselves. Once you work on yourself, you understand the other person did you a favor to give you this opportunity. When you get discarded like you are a piece of trash, after being sworn eternal love and that "you were the one", you do what you can do to survive emotionnally. It's more a matter of regaining control over yourself. I have not been trying to psychoanalyze her. I've been trying to use what i am learning here on the board to make sense of what i've just been put through, and yes it helps.
I don't need "harsh", annieb, i've had plenty of that recently, thanks. Alexandra and Annie12 have been doing a great job in leading me to do what you suggest here in a quite condescendent manner = work on myself.
They've been very patient and understanding, every time, and i think we need more of that kind of approach. You have to understand or remember idk, if you went through something like that, that you already feel like shit, so thank you for not making it worst
Also, maybe every step is important, and the focus on the partner first is something that has to be experienced to then put the focus on yourself + maybe you need to be able to recognize an unhealthy potential partner next time you cross path with one, and not put your heart in so much danger again.
This is my worst breakup by far, and i've been with bpds. Bpds are more obvious (at least the ones i was with), you can give them that.
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simon
New Member
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Post by simon on Jan 15, 2021 0:32:19 GMT
Woah, no.
I don't think what annieb said was harsh or "condescending" in nature at all. Sometimes if it hurts to hear something, that is more result of a sensitivity within ourselves, than the delivery or message from the messenger being "mean".
To be honest, yes I still hear a lot of pain and some anger in your posts, kind of in a "how dare could she do this to me" sort of tone. I think you are still taking it personally on some deep level, and yes an experience like this can be very traumatic in that regard so it is understandable.
However, it is very wise advice to turn the focus inward instead of outward, because that is where the true healing and growth will originate.
There is a very good chance that this person and behavior and situation might never make sense to you, so any repair to a wounded ego or sense of self can only come from YOU. And you will be better and stronger for it.
Ironically, you might even be re-traumatizing yourself by thinking about it too much, replaying events or situations or things she said, or recreating the effects of intermittent reinforcement (trauma bonding is DEEP) instead of moving forward, onward and upward.
Good luck.
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Jan 15, 2021 7:04:39 GMT
Hey Simon and Annieb,
Annieb especially, i'm so sorry about yesterday, i was just back from seeing her (1st time since the breakup and last time as far as i know, we have no reason to be seeing each other anymore + i have not minced her my words at some point) when i saw your post, and i was processing what had been said between us. Processing another step in my mourning of that relationship, and maybe the end of the way i have been living my r-ships so far. Which is definitely a good thing, but it's like moving to another country : you know what you are leaving, not where you will land. And there is the whole trip which you don't know how long it will last, if there's gonna be food, who you're gonna be sitted next to etc etc..
Plus this notion of working on the relationship is opposite to what we are trained to believe in all western culture (movies, books, songs) + what people are saying around you (the fantasy).
Anyway, i had no reason to lash at you like that, i re-read your post and i agree with Simon, it was perfectly ok, i was just on guard as soon as i read "i may sound harsh", i was too raw yesterday to take anything harsh anymore. So all my apologies, and thanks for taking the time to write that message, and take interest in what i am experiencing.
I know that i have to do that : look inward.f Fact is i'm still very curious of her ways, and how she finds explanation to the way she acts/reacts. Basically : none. "im just like that", "this is the way i work"
This is totally foreign to me, as i am trying to be consistent and reliable when i am committed in a r-ship witnessing that you can be completely volatile, and want/say sthg one day, and the opposite the next. (+ again, she didn't gave much hint prior to the breakup that she could be that way, she was very reliable and consistent until almost the end...)
I think i will wait a few days and will erase that whole thread, this is not bringing too much insight on the board ...
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Post by annieb on Jan 15, 2021 13:33:09 GMT
No offense taken and thank you for coming around. Both Alexandra and Anne12 have an amazing generous spirit that has helped so many here, myself included. I’ve spent countless hours reading their suggested literature and have nothing but gratitude for them. As for my own delivery I agree it’s not the best. In a way it’s intended that way. Because I don’t want to waste your time. I want you to see right away that in no possible way you are “trash” as you call yourself in the last post. I wish you never describe yourself like that ever.
My intention is for you to see and what came a giant surprise to myself that a relationship with an avoidant is there for a reason. It was there to hold a mirror to your face. To see why you try to gain an approval and validation from somebody, who is inconsistent at best. And harmful at worst. What is it about us that we seek out that person to outsource our self esteem to and take it as gospel and know that it’s not going to be good.
I here call everybody and avoidant, even the anxiously attached. Because it is self avoidance. I avoid my self esteem and rather have a poor self esteem validated from an inconsistent avoidant person than take responsibility for it. Self love, self acceptance, working on yourself will all gradually raise your self esteem. Therapy, if you can afford it, will accelerate it. In a year from now you will remember this person and you will feel compassion for them, as they were fumbling through their worst, and yet you handed them your self esteem like a life vest.
I remember doing that and I can’t imagine that being done to me. Actually I can imagine, as it had happened and I wanted nothing to do with that responsibility. It isn’t mine to take.
I lost my train of thought, but yes, I read your follow up message and thank you for that and it warms my heart to see your strength already. ❤️
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2021 11:08:36 GMT
In addition to annieb's insight on the relationship being a "mirror", I think "figuring out the other party" can be something very helpful in healing and seeing how the relationship is a mirror. For myself, figuring out the other party was crucial for my own well-being - understanding how different elements of the story (me, them, situation, childhoods etc) interacted and evolved to lead to where I am now allowed me to process my life and relationship in a compassionate way to both me and the ex. I think working on the self is a huge part, but only one part of the healing process. True forgiveness for both the self and the other comes from having empathy and compassion for all involved, and that requires some understanding. If figuring the other party out helps you make sense of the situation, see yourself AND the ex differently, and gain compassion and awareness for each other as human beings, then yes figuring it out is good. That comes with working on the self so that intention x action = change. I'm all for "figuring out so that one can be in control", but it is only healing if you also figured yourself out and saw how the relationship was a mirror to your own needs/issues. @kai, I hope that is is the outcome you achieve as you go through the process of figuring it out and healing from it. i think this was a very insightful thread, and nothing needs erasing. I also think it's very brave of you to apologize as well. |
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KAI
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by KAI on Jan 17, 2021 6:50:15 GMT
Hello shiningstar and annieb;
yes, annieb (thx for your kind and very interesting answer), i can see that what happened will give fruits at some point. I know, but right now i'm still sore (sometimes i'm even a mess), baffled, and broken. I guess i need to go through the pain, and process. And i think i will never be the same after that. For the better i hope. But in a sense, it makes me sad as well, because i know i will most probably always be on guard in my future relationships. I will probably never be able to give myself like i did in this relationship. Maybe it's good thing, as i've had this AP pleaser pattern going back over and over again in my last r-ships.
It's funny, because when i had this one-year relationship with an unaware bpd, which seemed to me like a very good r-ship at first (how innocent i was), amazing even, lots of love and laughters,but it slowly turned into a nightmare, which i had time to experience and was happy to be able to get away after having tried everything i could to make it work, i didn't even know about bpd, and found out afterwards, so you can imagine how bad this was, she was questionning my mnetal health. Of course when it ended, i was sad, crushed even, but i knew i could'nt have endured for a long time what that bpd put me through the last 6 months.
This time, I have the same desire to understand what went on with that supposedly-FA girl (or maybe bpd as well, i still wonder). I have the feeling that this is harder in terms of pain and disappointment, because it's more a brutal fall from paradise to hell. And that is why i'm trying to understand, how she could be all sweet and tender, and very eager to be reassured a lot, so much in love, and seemingly very stable to then switch off to another version of herself, more childish, irresponsible whose only way of explaining her doings is : "i was the first to be surprised", and "that's the way that i am". (well if she had given more honest signs that she was that volatile, i would have been more cautious..)
I hope i will be able to truly feel compassion in the future. At times, i can. But being wary/angry right now prevents me from trying anything to get her back. It's keeping me guarded against any desire i could have to take a step towards her, which i must admit i sometimes think about (i'm thinking : i could do the same as this guy, be a doormat waiting for her on the bench that she would take me back), it happens when i remember the core of th r-ship we had and the really good times. Or when i tell myself that it's not her fault, and then i follow the paths some of you have followed here : it's not her fault, she has issues, poor thing, i could help her with that, we could work them together, i would be patient (i read some of Alexandra's posts, and i tell myself that if Alexandra, with all her wisdom could'nt make it, i don't think i could either, alwasy going back to that very simple sentence : both parties have got to do the work, and she doesnt 't seem ready, she keener on going to the next guy that won't confront her with anything and take her back instantly, no questions asked). Well ok, it's not her fault, she has issues, but it's her responsibility to work on them, which she don't seem to be ready to do : last time i saw her i pointed out what she did to us and our r-ship, and to me and all she could say was "i'm like that, i act just as i feel/just follow my instinct". Well, it's most certainly a very good way of going on in life hurting people and yourself ..
Yes, looking at the other party as well can certainly act like a mirror to your own attachment style (i can't see how you would'nt be triggered and that kind of r-ships would'nt reveal the way you attach) like a kind of full-scale experience that would tell how you react under such circumstances, with your attachement style. Of course, it takes two. The other one counts too, it's very much a dynamic . In my case, I"m also very attentive and reactive to what i think the other one might want (AP), and with somebody that complex, it is hard to decipher, so i did what i know how to do : full force, which she seemed to like a lot, and then suddenly she declared "no more of that". But i now suspect after some reading on the board, and other sources that it's a conjunction of elements. ANd in my case, yes she felt engulfed, took space, so i took space as well, and was resentful (not angry, but we had a discussion/argument where i said i was not ok with her going cold on me all of a sudden whithout telling me first she needed space, that i needed to know beforehand, and so i also needed a little space). And i think the fact that i also took space and was resentful made her fear of abandonment pop out. "you can't dump me if i dump you first". I saw that on instagram, #fearfulavoidant. It really much felt like it. I think at that moment, it was too much for her, too much asking from me, and too much "ill take a moment too". After that, i had to ask myself if i wasn't a bit of an FA myself, because her taking space made me more of an avoidant in fact, and i even felt disconnected (deactivated?) at that moment..Maybe we just mirrored each other's actions. I'm all in, she's all in, she takes a little space, i take a little space.
Now, i'm thinking maybe i should push myself in dating right away. I'm kind of afraid i will never be able to trust anybody ever again, or commit again in a r-ship. It's also quite hard to meet people with the covid and restrictions here in France. ..
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Post by anne12 on Jan 17, 2021 9:49:43 GMT
To your two last sentences: " Now, i'm thinking maybe i should push myself in dating right away." No, don't do that. You haven't healed, and you will do the same as your ex! - but you know this!. I dont think that you will be able to see clearly right now when someone likes you. Also this pandemic is difficult for almost all of us at different times. I know properly more when you are single and also if you are a AP/FA leaning extroverted person.. You are just beeing Lucy from Peanuts right now and that is also okay from time to time and a typical way of AP thinking because of low selfworth and aps tendency to go into victim mode. (They dont do this on purpose - they have been a victim from a very early age because of emotionally caretaking of one of their parents). IT can also be a kind of a giving Up state. Lucy, Peanuts - No one is ever going to love me 😉 m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ohMo2dnDA4Something about why we fall in love: There are different perspectives on why we fall in love: - Imago - biological reasons - (Ensure the survival of the species, a man who can provide support and money, a women who can give birth to healthy children) - We complement eachother - We come from the same background and got the same level of education ect - Status 1) Francesco Alberoni: You fall in love, when you need a revolution. Italian psychologist Francesco Alberoni says: If you are a whole person, then you will not fall in love! He declares, that only when you need a revolution in your life, a change of the greater, only then you will fall in love! Seen with those glasses, even if you are not interested in this, you can fall in love. It can also be a way of getting out of a stagnant relationship. Falling in love with another can thus be a way of getting out of an unsatisfactory relationship. The love/crush gives the energy and possibly also the security to leave. 2) Why you will never fall in love with the wrong person: Jytte Vikkelsoe: jebkinnisonforum.com/post/29255"Do You know how all the men/women you've fallen in love with were both saviors and abusers. That they had both brought out the very best in you - AND they had activated your wound ? Isn't it better to find a man/woman who only redeems you and does not offend you ? We do not fall in love with people who - at some level - are unable to touch and activate our wounds. The offending element must be present in order for you to fall in love at all. But ... does that mean you should have joined up with some of your ex partners ? No. Because if they wouldn't work with you, then you were not a proper fit. we never fall in love with the wrong person, but that doesn't mean that all those we fall in love with are good partners for us. They are good for us in the sense that they invite healing when they unconsciously manage to activate our old unhealed wounds and emotions, but they are not necessarily good for us in the long run if they do not want to walk the healing path with us. That is ... if a partner can only love your persona (the part of you that effectively acts as a cover-up for your deepest shame / fear), and gets scared (or repulsed) by what's hiding beneath the surface - when love fades, masks fall and perfection crumbles ...then it's not necessarily the right partner...." 3) Imago's explanation of love: "The ultra-short version is: We fall in love with one who can restore our childhoods mental environment on the good and bad. Where the negative gives the sparks. This is because the love template is in the old part of the brain. This part of the brain is extremely primitive in relation to neocortex, where reason and conscious thoughts emerge! The old part of the brain does not operate with chronological time, but sees everything as being right now. Therefore, if you meet a person reminiscent of someone you know or have known, then it will confuse the person with this one. You will then feel safe or unsafe, comfortable or uncomfortable, etc. At the same time, this person whom you fall in love with has sides that you have repressed and lack to accept and / or develop yourself. That is, compensatory sides that makes the other different from yourself. If you are outgoing, you may fall in love with someone who is quieter and introverted. It gives you a feeling of being whole. Later in the relationship, these sides of the other oerson you fall in love wirh can be exactly the sides that bothers you the most. Put another way: The more a person potentially is able to give you the same kind of feelings that you experienced in childhood, the more in love you become! Unfortunately, especially the negative emotions give attraction. I could also say it like this: "The more in love - the more difficult problems later in the relationship". The point of is that to the extent that you have healed childhood scratches and thus the negative feelings, to this extent they will not bother you in the present...." jebkinnisonforum.com/post/26196/4) Stephen Porges - talks about romantic love - a love code - what state - social engagement and safety first of all - do you even like the person ? m.youtube.com/watch?v=EfkmuNm55us
5) Dr. Ramani talks about life transitions and who we can risk attracting when we go through them
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Post by dullboat123 on Feb 5, 2021 2:57:53 GMT
-Concerning her going back to her mediocre ex bf (her own words) straight away =
"sometimes people express hating somebody because in fact they are still in love". What ? Really ? Well, people that don't have a damn clue about what's going on inside of them, maybe. I saw that in very cheap romantic comedies, yes : the girl seemingly hating the guy all along, and all of a sudden, it turns into sexual tension, and bam, they are madly in love. But in real life, nope. "she was trying to convince herself that she wasn't in love with him anymore". all right. sigh. she was probably also trying to convince herself that she was head over heels in love with me at the same time. But why would she do that ? She could have just go back to him straight away.. Not dramatic enough ? i know....
Hi Kai, my FA ex did the EXACT same thing!!! She was romantically involved with this guy from another state, the guy flew her to his state to meet him but while in the air, covid situation in his state escalated and while he works in a hospital, his excuse for not meeting her completely is because he's busy with work. At that point of time, while me and her are still talking, she expressed that she hated me. Whilst she denies it, her anger was because I revealed to her I started chatting with another girl after her doing the same for months prior...erm, guy flying you to his state?? Double standard much? The guy turned out to be a fkboi where she returned to my state and had to do hotel quarantine at her cost. She turned back to me and wanted to fix things. I stupidly agreed. Went for couples counselling and she was back to verbalising "I love you" and even calling me "husband". Big term. I told her don't fk around with that but she is adamant that she meant it. I asked her the EXACT same thing - how can you hate me and within a month, love me? She said its scientifically proven that it can happen. I swallowed that hook, line, sinker. Fast forward 2 months into fixing things, she started getting flaky and my AP self lashed out accusing her of not reliable. She deactivates and now is doubting the fact that she came back to me is because she is afraid I'm alone. Now she says she needs space and while she is still deciding, if I move on, she won't be angry. I'm hurt so so much but is sick of this roller coaster of 7 months without any progress. |
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I'm so sorry for the pain you've been experiencing. A sudden breakup with someone you loved, combined with feeling instantly replaced, is a deeply traumatic experience for many people. Most of us here have sought each other out because of the confusion, the pain, and like you mentioned, the lack of real-world validation from those close to us.
