Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 7:14:01 GMT
Overwhelmed and I feel like I need to vent... Almost two months in NC, and it seems I'm feeling a bit worse these days about it all. As things started to crumble I reminded myself to be accepting of all that might come, because it is not our job to "fix" anyone, but only support them up to a point.
I’ve been ruminating from time to time, because parts of it are really confusing to me. How it all switched up in a matter of days.
Sometimes I feel foolish for letting my FA leaning DA into my life again, after 2 years almost. And I resent that I could not ever seem to "click" with anyone all that well during that time apart when dating as I did so harmoniously with him. That's when I realized I genuinely love him. He never believed he was worth that love, it seems.
He said it all ended before because he was scared of commitment, he wasn't worthy of it with me in his eyes. That he was sorry. Maybe I should have taken it slower, became friends, assessed his growth better. There was some growth, according to him partially influenced by the talk I gave him when I pulled the cord years back - but it was not enough.
It was great when we started dating again, he spoke of marriage and kids. It was like we've fully turned a new leaf. Around 5 months in though, he said he was triggered by his mother and eldest uncles pressuring him to marry soon by shaming him thorough comparisons with cousins etc.
One of his reasons for wanting to end things was that he wanted to “cut the cord” before being pulled into a marriage because thinks he is not able to give me what I deserve/need at the moment, calling himself “crazy” for thinking so, and not wanting to hurt me in any way. He felt like he was uniquely damaged mentally in some way for throwing away something he saw as totally harmonious, benign and a dynamic that was quite highly compatible. After that he asked to be friends, which I did not agree to, but we then agreed to try to work things out and if they don’t? That’s life.
It seems he was ashamed for displaying any shows of love or affection toward me, insisting our relationship was his attempt at starting over with me and he had failed at that and he was stupid for thinking he was “ready”, and that everything was pure coincidence. At some point, he was resolved to the idea that he needed an "indefinite" amount of time to work through things alone, but was open to try and work things out together. I tried, and I'm sure he did too. But you cannot heal a person without them realizing their own self worth, or give them strength when all they seem to feel in the moment is fear or resignation. Therapy doesn't seem appealing in that state of mind, I don't think. Although I did appreciate him looking for therapists on his own volition, and I hope he sees brighter days since he's now more knowledgeable about his attachment style and patterns.
I felt shame for a while, for not walking away sooner. I should have pulled the plug when he had asked me "why" I hurt when I see and hear him almost constantly self deprecating, showing self hate and self sabotage. It boggles my mind sometimes how he could be so empathetic to others, but believes he deserves none himself.
I get the impression he felt pressured to be “perfect” in a certain time frame, that everything was black or white - either he goes into it fully healed, or he avoids it all.
We’re in hard no contact now, but no blocks on either end. It hurts. Sometimes I question if he had ever loved me at all, and that hurts too.
I feel anger. Anger at how society enables and normalizes child abuse and dismisses abusive relationship experiences for men in many ways. How things beyond both my and his control have pushed him into this cage of avoidance at any sign of true connection with anyone.
I'm sure with time, things will get easier. Recovery's trajectory is not a straight line.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Apr 10, 2021 13:55:45 GMT
Hi there and welcome to the boards....he sounds like a DA leaning FA...as in an avoidant leaning FA versus an Anxious leaning FA....which is what I am. I completely relate to his need to separate himself from his family....and i give him kudos for recognizing it for what it is versus moving forward because of feeling the pressure to marry. Honestly...if you look at things from where he is at...he has it pretty tough if his family is that involved in his dating life. Idon’r question that he loved you but he has bigger, more pressing family issues he needs to work through. This would be an ideal time for him to seek out some therapy but he has to come to that decision on his own. With all that he has going on...perhaps the two of you are not the best partners for each other. The question that would be good for you to ask yourself is..if things do not change...if he doesn’t get the help he needs...are you ok with him as he is? If the answer is no...then it is best to move forward with your own life.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 15:58:34 GMT
Thanks for your reply, tnr9 . He has tested consistently as FA leaning DA. Where I come from, dating is kept very strictly a secret from family, so I guess it was his own internal pressures to "live up" to societal standards in a timeline that did not suit him (he is very anxious in nature). I have chosen to let go because I recognize the dynamic as it is now is not helpful for neither me or him, and I refuse to enable behavior by being friends (boundaries are important!). Hopefully, he can work through his issues in time as he is also a very motivated person... |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Apr 10, 2021 23:39:28 GMT
Thanks for your reply, tnr9 . He has tested consistently as FA leaning DA. Where I come from, dating is kept very strictly a secret from family, so I guess it was his own internal pressures to "live up" to societal standards in a timeline that did not suit him (he is very anxious in nature). I have chosen to let go because I recognize the dynamic as it is now is not helpful for neither me or him, and I refuse to enable behavior by being friends (boundaries are important!). Hopefully, he can work through his issues in time as he is also a very motivated person... There really isn’t an FA leaning DA...if you look up fearful avoidant...they have a combination of avoidance and anxious traits....so an FA has both traits of an AP and a DA. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 3:22:51 GMT
I should have phrased that better, tnr9! What I mean to say is, he of course manifests the more avoidant side in relationships with AP or even secure (in this or my case, a secure partner). I say secure as well because he has expressed the unfamiliarity of a supportive partner. From what I gather from what I've been told by him, in his past relationships he almost exclusively gravitated toward older, emotionally unavailable women where he would manifest the anxious traits more.
Do you believe this idea of "resetting" a relationship with the same person is linked to FA traits, or maybe other underlying conditions like (unmedicated) ADHD - which he happens to have?
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Apr 11, 2021 5:25:42 GMT
FA is correlated with ADHD, so it's probably both. There's a reddit post with a lot of research links about ADHD and attachment issues. www.reddit.com/r/ADHD/comments/7p9eho/attachment_issues_and_adhd/But yes, it's also typical enough for FA to try to reset. I'd argue most on and off relationships involve at least one FA partner. The reset often happens when there's been enough distance for their nervous system to calm down. So, when threatened by fear of engulfment (which really happens with any unaware FA in a close romantic relationship with someone who isn't more avoidant than they are), they get overwhelmed, go numb, disassociate, shut down, can't connect with themselves to feel their feelings (triggered avoidant). Because they do attach and do care, but they've been conditioned that others are unsafe. However, they also don't trust themselves and have a weak sense of identity which can shift often and makes them very reactive to emotions, and leads to a fear of abandonment (triggered anxious, which means they have an overwhelming need to reconnect to emotionally regulate). That manifests as come-here-go-away-too-far-come-back. So once everything has reset, they can reconnect with their feelings for their attachment figure that were temporarily inaccessible... but if they haven't addressed their underlying issues then the same issues will pop back up and they'll end up back in the come-here-go-away circle. But they won't inherently understand that, and they usually can't explain why things don't feel right. They just get overwhelmed and need distance again to emotionally regulate (responding to fear of engulfment). It's good you recognize that you can't do anything more, in spite of the situation being extremely sad. But if you haven't been able to connect well with anyone in the last few years, then you may want to explore why that is. Is your connection to him reflecting any other connections you've had before meeting him, perhaps that felt unresolved? |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Apr 11, 2021 5:37:59 GMT
I should have phrased that better, tnr9 ! What I mean to say is, he of course manifests the more avoidant side in relationships with AP or even secure (in this or my case, a secure partner). I say secure as well because he has expressed the unfamiliarity of a supportive partner. From what I gather from what I've been told by him, in his past relationships he almost exclusively gravitated toward older, emotionally unavailable women where he would manifest the anxious traits more.
Do you believe this idea of "resetting" a relationship with the same person is linked to FA traits, or maybe other underlying conditions like (unmedicated) ADHD - which he happens to have?
Oh wow....now you are eerily heading into the last guy I dated...who also had ADHD on top of FA. 3 months into our relationship, B tried to break up with me and I am not sure if it was what I said in response or how I said it...but he ended up not breaking up with me and even ramping things up...which was a head scratcher but the desired outcome so I didn’t question it....which in hindsight I should have because the “doubts” he had never went away and ultimately resulted in him breaking up with me 7 months later. The cycling part is definitely FA and not ADHD....if you look back over this forum you will find many stories of FAs cycling. B never cycled with me,....but he did cycle with the girl who he married. I think what sometimes happens is that with enough space, distance and no contact...an FA will turn from avoidant to anxious...which then leads to wanting to try again....but...without doing any work on their issues....the FA will fall back into old patterns of behavior. I am an anxious leaning FA and I tend to fall for younger emotionally unavailable men....ie male FAs who lean avoidant. It usually stems from having emotionally unavailable parents. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Apr 11, 2021 6:23:45 GMT
That’s exactly what happens, tnr9. And the best description of attachment styles that aren’t linear. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 17:06:50 GMT
FA is correlated with ADHD, so it's probably both. There's a reddit post with a lot of research links about ADHD and attachment issues. www.reddit.com/r/ADHD/comments/7p9eho/attachment_issues_and_adhd/But yes, it's also typical enough for FA to try to reset. I'd argue most on and off relationships involve at least one FA partner. The reset often happens when there's been enough distance for their nervous system to calm down. So, when threatened by fear of engulfment (which really happens with any unaware FA in a close romantic relationship with someone who isn't more avoidant than they are), they get overwhelmed, go numb, disassociate, shut down, can't connect with themselves to feel their feelings (triggered avoidant). Because they do attach and do care, but they've been conditioned that others are unsafe. However, they also don't trust themselves and have a weak sense of identity which can shift often and makes them very reactive to emotions, and leads to a fear of abandonment (triggered anxious, which means they have an overwhelming need to reconnect to emotionally regulate). That manifests as come-here-go-away-too-far-come-back. So once everything has reset, they can reconnect with their feelings for their attachment figure that were temporarily inaccessible... but if they haven't addressed their underlying issues then the same issues will pop back up and they'll end up back in the come-here-go-away circle. But they won't inherently understand that, and they usually can't explain why things don't feel right. They just get overwhelmed and need distance again to emotionally regulate (responding to fear of engulfment). It's good you recognize that you can't do anything more, in spite of the situation being extremely sad. But if you haven't been able to connect well with anyone in the last few years, then you may want to explore why that is. Is your connection to him reflecting any other connections you've had before meeting him, perhaps that felt unresolved? I've seen threads about that on reddit as well, thanks for the link! I would say to answer your question about connection it's largely culturally specific. You could say both him and I are part of a "subculture" or minority in our society so it is pretty hard to find someone with shared core values, worldview, and similar experiences while also being physically attractive to me. Judging from how he was way back when and more recently, he is definitely more self aware about somethings being not right when in a relationship dynamic (he used to dump blame on external factors rather than self reflect at all), but not quite aware about how to manage or dissect what is going on effectively so definitely work to do there for him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 17:09:45 GMT
I should have phrased that better, tnr9 ! What I mean to say is, he of course manifests the more avoidant side in relationships with AP or even secure (in this or my case, a secure partner). I say secure as well because he has expressed the unfamiliarity of a supportive partner. From what I gather from what I've been told by him, in his past relationships he almost exclusively gravitated toward older, emotionally unavailable women where he would manifest the anxious traits more.
Do you believe this idea of "resetting" a relationship with the same person is linked to FA traits, or maybe other underlying conditions like (unmedicated) ADHD - which he happens to have?
Oh wow....now you are eerily heading into the last guy I dated...who also had ADHD on top of FA. 3 months into our relationship, B tried to break up with me and I am not sure if it was what I said in response or how I said it...but he ended up not breaking up with me and even ramping things up...which was a head scratcher but the desired outcome so I didn’t question it....which in hindsight I should have because the “doubts” he had never went away and ultimately resulted in him breaking up with me 7 months later. The cycling part is definitely FA and not ADHD....if you look back over this forum you will find many stories of FAs cycling. B never cycled with me,....but he did cycle with the girl who he married. I think what sometimes happens is that with enough space, distance and no contact...an FA will turn from avoidant to anxious...which then leads to wanting to try again....but...without doing any work on their issues....the FA will fall back into old patterns of behavior. I am an anxious leaning FA and I tend to fall for younger emotionally unavailable men....ie male FAs who lean avoidant. It usually stems from having emotionally unavailable parents. I definitely see the recurring doubts with my ex partner as well. He is always doubtful of himself/his capabilities and decisions as well as intentions behind my actions when offering support over time (which he asked for in the first place, lol) |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Apr 12, 2021 7:28:11 GMT
I would say to answer your question about connection it's largely culturally specific. You could say both him and I are part of a "subculture" or minority in our society so it is pretty hard to find someone with shared core values, worldview, and similar experiences while also being physically attractive to me. I can understand this perspective. One problem with major attachment style differences is it can feel like there's a very high % of compatibility, but the small % that's incompatible completely tanks the relationship, and "if only" these things could be different then everything would be wonderful. The truth is, even if it seems like a small %, it is actually some of the most important parts of a sustainable connection. Which means that core values and worldview aren't truly shared. And this is equally as important a consideration to a relationship's success as the shared cultural perspective and presumably family or societal pressure to find a partner with that shared cultural background and/or religious beliefs. What this translates to is, let's say 95% of the relationship feels like a match and strong connection but 5% doesn't work because of the attachment conflict. This is because your worldviews actually are quite different. If you are secure, then at your core, you have healthy boundaries and a healthy identity / sense of self, you trust both yourself and others appropriately, you are comfortable with independence and with interdependence. This is how you approach the world, which includes communication, conflict resolution, and coping with stress. If your partner is FA, they do not have healthy boundaries or a healthy identity / sense of self, they trust neither themselves nor others, they are uncomfortable with interdependence and possibly with independence. That is how they approach the world unless they seek to change themselves. It's not fair, they struggle because they were exposed to bad circumstances that weren't their fault. But they are still adults and must choose to take responsibility or not to face and overcome their trauma and heal, or not. Many don't, some do, and it's hard work that can take a long time and won't happen on anyone else's schedule (including his family's). It sounds like you've already done a lot of reading on this to understand it. I've been where you are, and it took a long time to understand that what seems like a small % is still the traits responsible for the relationship's foundation, at least for the type of secure, consistent, and enduring relationship it seems like you're looking for. It's okay to let go with love, to feel compassion, to feel anger, to mourn, to feel however you feel. It's not about whether or not he "ever loved you," which I'm sure he does, and to the best of his ability. It is about reconsidering what compatibility and connection looks like against your own long-term goals. He can meet your needs on shared cultural background, but he isn't currently capable of meeting your emotional needs. It's no one's fault (he isn't setting out to be difficult or hurt you), and it's incredibly disappointing, but at least you know that now after having gone through this with him twice. He's just not ready to fully face his issues and may never be. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2021 9:41:46 GMT
I would say to answer your question about connection it's largely culturally specific. You could say both him and I are part of a "subculture" or minority in our society so it is pretty hard to find someone with shared core values, worldview, and similar experiences while also being physically attractive to me. I can understand this perspective. One problem with major attachment style differences is it can feel like there's a very high % of compatibility, but the small % that's incompatible completely tanks the relationship, and "if only" these things could be different then everything would be wonderful. The truth is, even if it seems like a small %, it is actually some of the most important parts of a sustainable connection. Which means that core values and worldview aren't truly shared. And this is equally as important a consideration to a relationship's success as the shared cultural perspective and presumably family or societal pressure to find a partner with that shared cultural background and/or religious beliefs. What this translates to is, let's say 95% of the relationship feels like a match and strong connection but 5% doesn't work because of the attachment conflict. This is because your worldviews actually are quite different. If you are secure, then at your core, you have healthy boundaries and a healthy identity / sense of self, you trust both yourself and others appropriately, you are comfortable with independence and with interdependence. This is how you approach the world, which includes communication, conflict resolution, and coping with stress. If your partner is FA, they do not have healthy boundaries or a healthy identity / sense of self, they trust neither themselves nor others, they are uncomfortable with interdependence and possibly with independence. That is how they approach the world unless they seek to change themselves. It's not fair, they struggle because they were exposed to bad circumstances that weren't their fault. But they are still adults and must choose to take responsibility or not to face and overcome their trauma and heal, or not. Many don't, some do, and it's hard work that can take a long time and won't happen on anyone else's schedule (including his family's). It sounds like you've already done a lot of reading on this to understand it. I've been where you are, and it took a long time to understand that what seems like a small % is still the traits responsible for the relationship's foundation, at least for the type of secure, consistent, and enduring relationship it seems like you're looking for. It's okay to let go with love, to feel compassion, to feel anger, to mourn, to feel however you feel. It's not about whether or not he "ever loved you," which I'm sure he does, and to the best of his ability. It is about reconsidering what compatibility and connection looks like against your own long-term goals. He can meet your needs on shared cultural background, but he isn't currently capable of meeting your emotional needs. It's no one's fault (he isn't setting out to be difficult or hurt you), and it's incredibly disappointing, but at least you know that now after having gone through this with him twice. He's just not ready to fully face his issues and may never be. I appreciate the helpful thorough reply, and thank you for validating both my experience and my efforts to understand and research attachment theory - it is actually a great way to assess (and re-assess) other non-romantic relationships in my life from an alternative perspective!
I would also like to thank other contributors to my post, all your replies have been useful to remind myself again that despite an experience being quite painful in the moment, there is always something to be gleaned from it for both myself and others.
|
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on Apr 12, 2021 11:33:26 GMT
One problem with major attachment style differences is it can feel like there's a very high % of compatibility, but the small % that's incompatible completely tanks the relationship, and "if only" these things could be different then everything would be wonderful. The truth is, even if it seems like a small %, it is actually some of the most important parts of a sustainable connection. Which means that core values and worldview aren't truly shared. THIS THIS THIS. I definitely fell into that trap. They way I explained it to myself, is that I could see my ex for who they are as a "person" and who they are as a "partner". So in the beginning, I saw the "person" and thought they were great for those qualities. Plus this is before attachment wounds get activated, so everything seems so smooth in relationship, they are acting and talking through their mask of who they WANT to be from their CONSCIOUS mind. And then it is even more confusing as things crumble. It's not that their great qualities as a "person" change... but you start to see their deeper UNCONSCIOUS programs and beliefs specifically around being a healthy "partner" bubble up, which is so different than what they said and how they acted in the beginning. Not that they were lying, but that their unconscious fears hadn't taken over yet. So this great "person" still exists, but they just aren't capable of being a healthy "partner". And, well........ that's kind of an important part of a relationship. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Apr 12, 2021 19:09:38 GMT
@salientsensation, I saw in your other post that your mom has BPD. It's fantastic that you've taken it upon yourself to address your anxious attachment and earn secure. I've gone through that process (unrelated to BPD) and it is something difficult to be proud of yourself about.
In regards to not feeling as connected to others since your ex, this was more the sort of dynamic I was asking about. Don't discount the impact of how having a close attachment figure with BPD influences your choices in and attraction to romantic partners. FA shares many traits with BPD (though it's not as extreme, pronounced, or "fixed" in mindset, and there are more tools to address it and heal and potentially work through than are available for personality disorder management). While it's not conscious, you needed to find ways to stay attached to your mom even when her behavior was erratic. So as an adult, that type of dynamic (trying to be stable and support someone without much self-esteem or healthy emotional regulation abilities) may feel more familiar and comfortable to you in a close connection. It's what your nervous system recognizes a close connection feels like, even if it's not on a conscious level.
You of course still need time for your emotions to catch up to your brain in your situation, because you're still hurting from the breakup, and you may not be in a good place right now to delve into this. But once you give yourself some more time and start to feel better, if you are looking for a spot to introspect and perhaps heal within yourself, I'd suggest this is the next space to explore.
It's all connected to my last post about redefining compatibility and what a secure romantic relationship is. Part of that is seeing what core values is more holistically, and part is choosing a partner who is emotionally healthy for you without recreating older dynamics. I had to wade through both these concepts before I could start choosing (and feeling attracted to) healthier romantic partners.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2021 22:31:08 GMT
@salientsensation , I saw in your other post that your mom has BPD. It's fantastic that you've taken it upon yourself to address your anxious attachment and earn secure. I've gone through that process (unrelated to BPD) and it is something difficult to be proud of yourself about. In regards to not feeling as connected to others since your ex, this was more the sort of dynamic I was asking about. Don't discount the impact of how having a close attachment figure with BPD influences your choices in and attraction to romantic partners. FA shares many traits with BPD (though it's not as extreme, pronounced, or "fixed" in mindset, and there are more tools to address it and heal and potentially work through than are available for personality disorder management). While it's not conscious, you needed to find ways to stay attached to your mom even when her behavior was erratic. So as an adult, that type of dynamic (trying to be stable and support someone without much self-esteem or healthy emotional regulation abilities) may feel more familiar and comfortable to you in a close connection. It's what your nervous system recognizes a close connection feels like, even if it's not on a conscious level. You of course still need time for your emotions to catch up to your brain in your situation, because you're still hurting from the breakup, and you may not be in a good place right now to delve into this. But once you give yourself some more time and start to feel better, if you are looking for a spot to introspect and perhaps heal within yourself, I'd suggest this is the next space to explore. It's all connected to my last post about redefining compatibility and what a secure romantic relationship is. Part of that is seeing what core values is more holistically, and part is choosing a partner who is emotionally healthy for you without recreating older dynamics. I had to wade through both these concepts before I could start choosing (and feeling attracted to) healthier romantic partners. alexandra we must not neglect the help of some counselors or therapists I have went to (granted, some of them were not helpful at all and wanted me to "play along" with my mother for religious reasons which I refused to do adamantly)
If I were to begin thinking about the dynamic between my ex and I as well as other men with similar issues, I have left multiple situations with people quite quickly with the show of the slightest hint of insecure attachment traits because they were intrusive, verbally aggressive, possessive and overall controlling (which is to me how my mother generally acts, but also behaviors heavily associated with toxic masculinity).
In fact, my ex repeatedly tells me of the abuse he had received from a BPD ex partner who was the major contributor (according to him) to his distrust and fear of others when things start to move into serious territory with new partners.
So, maybe to answer your question it is the contrast between BPD behaviors seen at home, how men generally behave in society, and how my ex behaves in a non deactivated state, here are some examples: he would always bring up issues or concerns gently and "diplomatically" shall we say, I had ample space, and there was an honesty there where everyone was accountable rather than me receiving all the blame, I am seen as my own person rather than a responsibility, a possession, etc, and he is open to learn and change (maybe slow for someone with FA traits and ADHD doubly but it is the fact that he asked questions frequently on how to improve, even by the end of it).
^Additionally to that, I think it is needless to say there was a high level of rapport and chemistry both personality wise and physically.
A very very common dynamic here develops of men acting as a more patriarchal or fatherly figure to women when in a relationship and it is quite disturbing to me, and I avoid it at all costs no matter how "viable" the relationship is long term. If this behavior is displayed on any capacity no matter how big or small, I run for the hills.
I know most of what I have listed probably seems like "normal" behavior and quite low standards to most of you, but you must please keep in mind the idea of cultural relativity instead of judging through your cultural lens exclusively. It is our world, and there are different unspoken and spoken rules.
That being said, again I think it is unfair to discount the cultural aspect totally. The support of insecure men in a marriage for instance, with quite obvious and constant limited emotional regulation, those with terrible low self esteem, those that are physically abusive even is quite expected behavior from women here and not generally seen as problematic at all!!
Thank you for revisiting the post again, and I appreciate the further explication of your question to me to help me reflect.
|
|
