annes
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Posts: 60
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Post by annes on Jun 28, 2021 16:22:55 GMT
As I'm working towards secure, I'm casually seeing several people but have one FWB whom I see regularly. We have nice nights together which always end in bed. He seems secure (maybe AP) and never made me question his interest in me. He seems 100% easy. Whenever his thought pops up in my mind, I smile and go through my day. For someone who is used to obsess about people, usually avoidants, this feels nice and new. I feel like I don't have to spend energy on trying to figure him out, second-guessing, worrying about hidden meanings, googling about weird behaviors, etc. I sincerely enjoy our time together and then focus on myself. I don't feel the need to meet him more than once a week or to be in touch with him often. Since I've started seeing him, I feel like my wellbeing has somehow increased. I feel more balanced. Like I usually spiral in sadness when I feel lonely but the background presence of this man is kind of reassuring. So I've thought that he's probably working as what in AT is called a "secure base" for me, which insecurely attached people usually lack. The lack of a secure base is what makes me spiral in sadness usually, and it feels like a very discomforting sense of void/emotional hunger. I don't want a relationship right now but it feels good to have this sense of reliance on/care from someone nonetheless. Yet, whenever he tries to see me more often or says something that would lead us towards a relationship I feel the urge to keep a distance (for the records, I do have a slight DA lean in tests, around 25%, and generally I care a lot about my own space/privacy, but that might amount to being an introvert). What's your experience with FWBs? Have they helped you earn security? I would like to think that this might facilitate the shift towards secure, but I'm curious to learn from your experiences.
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Post by krolle on Jun 28, 2021 17:04:23 GMT
It's hard to tell how secure things are until they are tested. And either one of you are in a triggered state. in my opinion.
I have felt comfortable in quiet a few relationships as they're chugging along nicely in the honeymoon phase. Then bam, ghosted, or enmeshed, and the insecure behaviours and internal pain abound.
How do you think you'd feel if he ghosted you? Or told you that he doesn't want anything to do with all of a sudden? Or started abusing you? Your response and feelings in a scenario like that would dictate your security.
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Post by krolle on Jun 28, 2021 17:07:01 GMT
So in my opinion FWB can offer some opportunities to 'practice secure' and certainly an easy way to meet some emotional needs. But not really give an indication of true security. Because the stakes and tests just generally aren't there.
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Post by amber on Jun 29, 2021 1:33:29 GMT
I don’t personally think you can have a secure base in a romantic dynamic someone outside of a committed r/ship…there’s less opportunities for triggers into insecurity which happen more often with someone when there’s the idea of a long term commitment and everything that goes with that,ie can I rely on this person? Can I trust them?Do they have my back? Will they be there for me during the bad time? I’m in a very similar situation myself and it went until about four months into the causal dynamic when the intimacy and closeness and heart openness became deeper than I started getting by triggered. My guy is secure and super honest and open…which is great to experience but long term probs not a good way to try to have a secure base as it ultimately lack security that goes with a long term committed r/ship
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 1:49:27 GMT
Insecure dynamics can certainly show up while dating, but everything I have read says that the deep stuff really shows up after commitment, when a partner becomes "deep family" and the original attachment gets activated more. I see this with my current relationship which has a lot of growth in it, still the attachment stuff got more profound with time. We are both committed to the relationship and to healing those things but they weren't noticeable as much before it got serious and we both became more and more invested.
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 29, 2021 2:53:10 GMT
FWBs = an insecure's dream. Ask me how I know.
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Post by alexandra on Jun 29, 2021 5:05:58 GMT
Lol blacksnow2. I don't think FWBs can be a secure base because the dynamic is inherently unstable unless both parties want indefinite FWBs and that's it. Someone in that arrangement is generally open to meeting someone else, whether to date or also sleep with, at any time. So, in addition to what other posters are saying about it taking time to form the kind of emotionally intimate bond which is most triggering, there's also a higher level of unpredictability than there is (in theory) in a committed relationship. So, it's much easier to have a healthy stable bond with a close friend or in a more committed relationship. That doesn't mean you don't have a connection or that you can't get anything good out of the situation. My last FWB was very helpful and empowering -- because I ended it. It didn't meet my long-term needs/goals, and embarrassingly I'd really never ended anything with someone I had a real romantic attachment with before. I always stayed and hoped things would change until I got dumped and devastated (yay AP!). This was a situation where I took responsibility for my needs and did something different, not just going through the motions, believing I deserved to find what I wanted and not wanting to get in my own way. He also was an FA but our dynamic was different than with my previous FA relationships and that allowed some healing for me too when I was still wrestling with having internalized ways the prior exes had withdrawn. I think you can get plenty out of this connection, as long as you're aware of your goals and which the FWB setup is meeting. But relying on it as a secure base won't be great in the long-term because you're ultimately looking for security from someone unavailable, and that will eventually reinforce the more negative insecure attachment narrative ideas if the situation changes.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 29, 2021 9:30:26 GMT
I think any relationship where you are allowed to be “you” is a step in a positive direction…just keep checking in with your heart because to the point raised by others…FWB has no commitment, so both parties are free to to see other people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 14:17:33 GMT
As I'm working towards secure, I'm casually seeing several people but have one FWB whom I see regularly. We have nice nights together which always end in bed. He seems secure (maybe AP) and never made me question his interest in me. He seems 100% easy. Whenever his thought pops up in my mind, I smile and go through my day. For someone who is used to obsess about people, usually avoidants, this feels nice and new. I feel like I don't have to spend energy on trying to figure him out, second-guessing, worrying about hidden meanings, googling about weird behaviors, etc. I sincerely enjoy our time together and then focus on myself. I don't feel the need to meet him more than once a week or to be in touch with him often. Since I've started seeing him, I feel like my wellbeing has somehow increased. I feel more balanced. Like I usually spiral in sadness when I feel lonely but the background presence of this man is kind of reassuring. So I've thought that he's probably working as what in AT is called a "secure base" for me, which insecurely attached people usually lack. The lack of a secure base is what makes me spiral in sadness usually, and it feels like a very discomforting sense of void/emotional hunger. I don't want a relationship right now but it feels good to have this sense of reliance on/care from someone nonetheless. Yet, whenever he tries to see me more often or says something that would lead us towards a relationship I feel the urge to keep a distance (for the records, I do have a slight DA lean in tests, around 25%, and generally I care a lot about my own space/privacy, but that might amount to being an introvert). What's your experience with FWBs? Have they helped you earn security? I would like to think that this might facilitate the shift towards secure, but I'm curious to learn from your experiences. My sense in re-reading this is that you are already in an insecure dynamic, with you on the avoidant, not secure end. You say that he tries to move this toward relationship (a huge NO-NO in casual situations, a red flag that this is NOT a "no expectations" arrangement). You may feel secure because he is in pursuit and you are in control. So, if you step into his shoes you might not feel so great. It's a typical avoidant move to keep a relationship on a string to meet one's needs, without putting both feet in. Also avoidant is the ability to recognize that someone wants more but to deny that in deference to one's own needs. The AP side of this is to recognize that one DOESN'T want more and to push an agenda to change that. So both sides are in a battle of seeking what they want from an inappropriate source, the insecure dilemma. In my opinion, the step toward secure with this situation is to end it, having already seen that this person wants the relationship that you don't. To let go in spite of your own enjoyment, to have integrity to know you don't want a relationship and are willing to give up your own agenda in order to honor the vulnerabilities of each person, would be the secure move. I don't think it's ok to continue to get your needs met with a person who wants more than you are willing to give. If you happen to read about the "How To's" of casual FWB dating, you will see you are in the red zone, the zone in which harm will be done or may have been done, and it requires emotional sensitivity to the other to be able to address it honestly, and with responsible action at the ready, to avoid the anxious/avoidant dance from here on out. (I'm primarily dismissive so not dogging you, just trying to speak plainly about what I see which may not be exactly what's going on. Just putting this out there)
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Post by alexandra on Jun 29, 2021 14:20:39 GMT
I agree with @introvert, but if he's secure and wants more he'll also end it at some point because he's not getting his needs met. But if he's actually AP, he won't. It still is an opportunity for you to practice secure boundaries if her take on your dynamic is correct, without waiting for him to take action.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 14:21:01 GMT
I agree with @introvert , but if he's secure and wants more he'll also end it at some point because he's not getting his needs met. But if he's actually AP, he won't. Yep. I also doubt the tendency of secure attachers to get into FWB situations. It sounds all slick and needless but what emotionally available person needs needless? Ive only known insecure people in casual. The emotionally healthy ones at least from my vantage point, date with a purpose beyond instant gratification. My personal experience is that every FWB situation I have been in has been unhealthy. In this relationship, we mutually postponed sex with the idea of a potential relationship in mind, so that sex wouldn't complicate matters with all the inherent hormonal consequences in the way. We also enjoyed a platonic connection for months before moving to the next level. The point being, expectations/intentions were aligned from the beginning and progressed mutually. I don't see that in casual situations, there typically seems to be an imbalance when it comes to expectation/intention, no matter what is expressed verbally. The deeper needs are there and going about it sideways is a great way to push an insecure agenda. I also agree with alexandra that if he is secure he will sooner rather than later walk, which could be a nightmare for you if you really aren't wanting to progress this. If you're unsure, that's not exactly healthy either, simply because dating without clear intentions is emotionally messy and lacks integrity. This, taken from my own dating history, and the shared experience of a zillion web communities probably.
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Post by krolle on Jun 29, 2021 14:52:04 GMT
I agree mostly with what has been said. But I also think that a FWB situation could be healthy in specific situations.
The main thing being that both parties are aware of its temporary non committal nature. And I don't mean SAY they are aware, and secretly want something to progress. I mean fundamentally aware that they have an itch that needs scratching and that's all it is. A practical way to meet a sexual need for both parties. I think the secure reaction in a FWB situation if there is such a thing is to not be hurt in any way when the other partner moves on or ends the situation, or they themselves feel like it's run it's course, and there's no hostility/ pain for either party.
But agree with blacksnow. The vast majority of FWB arrangements are engaged in by insecures.
But I mean in my opinion the dating lines are so blurred in 2021. I'v certainly lost track of what's real/acceptable/possible these days. what the heck do I know lol
I would also agree with what's been said earlier about the OP situation. It probably feels secure because he's chasing her. So the position of relative power feels safe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 14:53:26 GMT
For the record, I think this is a fantastic illustration of the lack of malice in an avoidant's actions. It's not malice it's unawareness that's operating when there is an insecure dynamic at play, on both the anxious and avoidant side. Two very different perspectives, not out to get the other but not out to protect the other either.
Holding the other's well being in heart and mind, as well as one's own, is the foundation of secure relating and what I strive for in my relationships today.
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Post by krolle on Jun 29, 2021 18:49:01 GMT
For the record, I think this is a fantastic illustration of the lack of malice in an avoidant's actions. It's not malice it's unawareness that's operating when there is an insecure dynamic at play, on both the anxious and avoidant side. Two very different perspectives, not out to get the other but not out to protect the other either. Holding the other's well being in heart and mind, as well as one's own, is the foundation of secure relating and what I strive for in my relationships today. I would agree. well said. The difficult ethical point which comes from it though. Are most actions really ever malicious? Or just unaware. For example, the Narcassist. If they lack insight that their behaviours are manipulative can they really be blamed for what they do? I'm not saying yes, or no. Just that it's a difficult ethical question. And taking that to the extreme end of the argument, is the person that beats their children malicious if they grew up in an environment where they were beaten and it became the normal way to discipline a child? My experienced with borderlines initially resulting in a feeling of blame, but quickly turned to empathy when I realized they are often literally unaware of how ineffective/dangerous their actions are. I'm getting beyond the scope of attachment styles here. But You get my point. The grey areas of relational ethics are very grey. Hard to answer.
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Post by krolle on Jun 29, 2021 18:59:29 GMT
I really like the saying, holding another's heart and mind in consideration. It's poetic. But seems like a virtuous strategy too. I shall incorporate it into my goals. Thankyou Introvert
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