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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 19:06:48 GMT
As I see it blame isn't important at all and not worth pondering. Another's actions are beyond our control, and so the only thing to really put energy into figuring out is how to respond and make healthy and insightful choices into our own actions and thoughts.
When you are able to keep yourself relatively safe in spite of the actions of another, meaning you are guided by care for yourself and the other without taking risks because of being driven by your own insecure behavior, then compassion comes easier because it's not a victim/perpetrator dynamic.
For example, getting healthier boundaries through self-work can provide a more realistic perspective of yourself and others. Dangerous (emotionally or otherwise) behavior looks dangerous, not appealing. Choice made from insightful awareness enables you to forego attachments that would prove to be harmful, at least give you much more of a chance than choices led by unconscious patterns of insecurity. I've been harmed by pathological persons as well and after a time of processing through it blame is irrelevant, because it was only in taking full charge of myself did I find the relief I was looking for. I don't find myself stepping in relationshit anymore, and that's in my friendships, business relationships, family relationships, and romantic relationship. That's not to say there aren't things to work through, but there is no need yo lay blame anywhere, there is no disaster to try to understand.
I may have strayed from the original question and don't mean to discount you. I'm just saying that in terms of healing, letting go of the need to determine intent frees you to just focus on your own intent to love yourself better than they did.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 19:23:07 GMT
I really like the saying, holding another's heart and mind in consideration. It's poetic. But seems like a virtuous strategy too. I shall incorporate it into my goals. Thankyou Introvert anne12 reminded me of this when I was struggling with anger and frustration about the behavior of my partner, it was earlier on as I asked him for a break. I felt truly hurt and exasperated but she was able to remind me of his heart in the situation also. So, that's the thing. We have these intentions to love well that we aren't always able to actualize, but that's what support is for. We don't have to be perfect but we just need to be able to soften our views away from survival into taking care of others too, from that secure place that does exist in all of us. I really believe it's there we just have to peel back some stuff to access it. At my best, this is easy to remember. When challenged or triggered, is when it's easy to forget. But that's when I ask for help. It's so powerful to be able to ask other compassionate people for help, can get you going the right way right away.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 29, 2021 20:27:19 GMT
For the record, I think this is a fantastic illustration of the lack of malice in an avoidant's actions. It's not malice it's unawareness that's operating when there is an insecure dynamic at play, on both the anxious and avoidant side. Two very different perspectives, not out to get the other but not out to protect the other either. Holding the other's well being in heart and mind, as well as one's own, is the foundation of secure relating and what I strive for in my relationships today. I would agree. well said. The difficult ethical point which comes from it though. Are most actions really ever malicious? Or just unaware. For example, the Narcassist. If they lack insight that their behaviours are manipulative can they really be blamed for what they do? I'm not saying yes, or no. Just that it's a difficult ethical question. And taking that to the extreme end of the argument, is the person that beats their children malicious if they grew up in an environment where they were beaten and it became the normal way to discipline a child? My experienced with borderlines initially resulting in a feeling of blame, but quickly turned to empathy when I realized they are often literally unaware of how ineffective/dangerous their actions are. I'm getting beyond the scope of attachment styles here. But You get my point. The grey areas of relational ethics are very grey. Hard to answer. Someone who is clinically diagnosed as a Narcissist has very low capacity for empathy…so to the degree that they cannot “walk in another’s shoes”….the manipulation is because they are only ever truly capable for understanding things from 1 vantage point which is their own. That is why it is so challenging to understand a narcissist….it requires having the same low level of empathy….it is also why many are attracted to very empathetic individuals.
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Post by alexandra on Jun 29, 2021 21:12:37 GMT
My experienced with borderlines initially resulting in a feeling of blame, but quickly turned to empathy when I realized they are often literally unaware of how ineffective/dangerous their actions are. I'm getting beyond the scope of attachment styles here. But You get my point. The grey areas of relational ethics are very grey. Hard to answer. I agree it's important to have empathy for who people are and where they've come from. The next step is to do it in a way that's also healthy for you, again as was said, strengthening your own boundaries to be healthy. You can feel for someone without trying to come to their rescue, point out their issues, or take their abuse, etc. Giving acknowledgement of who they are and acting in a respectful manner to them without blame while keeping a healthy distance for yourself (which may be complete no contact) is secure if the dynamic is harmful to you, even if they don't have bad intentions. Easier said than done, I know, but part of the process.
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annes
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Post by annes on Jun 29, 2021 22:44:27 GMT
Thank you all for sharing your wise insights. Actually, re-reading my post after seeing your comments I find it so naive lol. I love the wisdom of people in this forum. We kinda look like a very disenchanted crowd but that's actually solid self-awareness. A zero bullshit approach I guess - exactly why we are all here right? So, my thoughts on what has been said. I think my thoughts about the "secure base" were not really about "testing" secure attachment, but about building it. I'm working on building security and I seek any situation that would help me to get there. So I've thought this situation might serve this purpose because it makes me feel better overall, no worrying and no fixation. But yeah, I think you are right that it's probably because now there are no stakes and it's objectively easy. I agree with tnr9 though that anyone who makes you feel more "you" can add up to your healing somehow. That was my point. It's like, I like to think that people that make you feel safe add up to your internal sense of safety, as if they were teaching you this totally unfamiliar thing just by being around them. But yeah I guess things are more complicated than that.
I've referred to an emotional void that I experience often as an AP when I'm not romantically involved with anyone. So the FWB situation brought me to a position of not feeling that void anymore, of course I know this may be temporary, I'm not expecting this will last forever and I'm okay with that. I agree that it is an easy way to meet certain emotional needs with almost zero costs. However, I am more skeptical about the view that FWB is just an insecure shit. Been through the toughest time of my life, one heartbreak after another and extreme loneliness, all of this due to codependency. So I guess right now I just want the benefits without the costs. And I'm ready to let him go if it comes up that I cannot meet his needs. In other words, it's just that I am at a point that I don't want a relationship because I usually rush into them out of my neediness. Getting to this point is absolutely not obvious for an AP like me. I've always been in relationships for my entire life, only to discover that the actual reason was codependency. I usually rush into relationships and that's the AP shit I want to get rid of. So I guess keeping this situationship as it is is a form of progress to me, despite what it seems. If anything, I'd go extremely slow, if the guy wants to wait. Otherwise fine, I am okay with letting him go if I can't meet his needs. I certainly agree that attachment stuff kicks in when things get serious, but to be honest, in my experience I have struggled the most with attachment stuff in the early stages of dating instead. That's why this new guy feels so refreshing. The last time someone behaved like him AND I was interested I ended up in a 10+ years relationship, to give an idea. For the records, that long relationship started as a sexual relationship. So I don't agree that postponing sex makes necessarily the relationship better, at least that's not my experience. Actually, quite the contrary. I had a soulmate connection with a DA a while ago, we waited so long to have sex but then I was so disappointed to see that sexually we weren't that compatible (still, AP me wanted him so bad nonetheless...APs would stick around even when sex isn't great, right?). Not having to worry and obsess about a guy's interest all the while not being un-interested myself and having some needs met, is kinda nice. I guess I'm hoping this "insecure dream" will last long, but yeah, as some of you wisely said, it's probably not going to happen. What really struck a chord are the comments about me mistaking this as a "secure base" just because I'm pursued and therefore I feel more in power. Gosh, that might be true. I agree that sooner or later we will need to have a talk to define the situation/expectations better, as I wouldn't dream of being the emotional free-rider here as @introvert suggested. Zero malice on my side for sure, but you're right. I agree that this situation can't last forever unless we're both happy with this baseline level of needs being met (love alexandra 's comments as usual, and sorry if I don't quote all of you but I've found every single comment very insightful). What would happen if he ghosted me? Honestly I feel bad anytime people act like assholes, colleagues or friends included, so yeah I would feel bad but that doesn't necessarily signal, I think, insecure attachment, just being a human maybe? I dunno, I am a pretty sensitive person so I would lie if I said any change in his behavior wouldn't sting a bit. But my expectations are so low right now and I am so invested in feeling good after so much suffering that I can't imagine myself being devastated for this. I'd probably be over it quickly after some sadness. The problem then would be the same though: That unbearable emotional void when I'm not involved with anyone. This is really what makes me hardcore AP, and it is my top priority to fix this. But I've been working on this for so long now, that it's become somehow familiar and I can sit with it knowing that I'll survive. It's just massive sadness creeping up sometimes followed by a better day usually, in a sort of neverending cycle. To overcome codependency though, I feel like this is my boundary: Not rushing into anything with anyone just because that void feels unbearable. Does that make sense? Actually, learning how to live with that void equals being secure to me. So part of my journey is definitely not to stick with someone just in order to not feel that void. I don't want to get into a relationship with this guy just because I hate feeling that void. That would bring me back to my old codependent patterns. I want to choose a partner, not to need it. But thank you guys for helping me understand these dynamics better. I don't want to be the DA here or anything. I've thought he might accept this but if that isn't the case, it's fair if he walks away. Maybe I'll start the conversation myself so things are clear and no one gets hurt.
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Post by krolle on Jun 30, 2021 10:46:25 GMT
Thank you all for sharing your wise insights. Actually, re-reading my post after seeing your comments I find it so naive lol. I love the wisdom of people in this forum. We kinda look like a very disenchanted crowd but that's actually solid self-awareness. A zero bullshit approach I guess - exactly why we are all here right? So, my thoughts on what has been said. I think my thoughts about the "secure base" were not really about "testing" secure attachment, but about building it. I'm working on building security and I seek any situation that would help me to get there. So I've thought this situation might serve this purpose because it makes me feel better overall, no worrying and no fixation. But yeah, I think you are right that it's probably because now there are no stakes and it's objectively easy. I agree with tnr9 though that anyone who makes you feel more "you" can add up to your healing somehow. That was my point. It's like, I like to think that people that make you feel safe add up to your internal sense of safety, as if they were teaching you this totally unfamiliar thing just by being around them. But yeah I guess things are more complicated than that.
I've referred to an emotional void that I experience often as an AP when I'm not romantically involved with anyone. So the FWB situation brought me to a position of not feeling that void anymore, of course I know this may be temporary, I'm not expecting this will last forever and I'm okay with that. I agree that it is an easy way to meet certain emotional needs with almost zero costs. However, I am more skeptical about the view that FWB is just an insecure shit. Been through the toughest time of my life, one heartbreak after another and extreme loneliness, all of this due to codependency. So I guess right now I just want the benefits without the costs. And I'm ready to let him go if it comes up that I cannot meet his needs. In other words, it's just that I am at a point that I don't want a relationship because I usually rush into them out of my neediness. Getting to this point is absolutely not obvious for an AP like me. I've always been in relationships for my entire life, only to discover that the actual reason was codependency. I usually rush into relationships and that's the AP shit I want to get rid of. So I guess keeping this situationship as it is is a form of progress to me, despite what it seems. If anything, I'd go extremely slow, if the guy wants to wait. Otherwise fine, I am okay with letting him go if I can't meet his needs. I certainly agree that attachment stuff kicks in when things get serious, but to be honest, in my experience I have struggled the most with attachment stuff in the early stages of dating instead. That's why this new guy feels so refreshing. The last time someone behaved like him AND I was interested I ended up in a 10+ years relationship, to give an idea. For the records, that long relationship started as a sexual relationship. So I don't agree that postponing sex makes necessarily the relationship better, at least that's not my experience. Actually, quite the contrary. I had a soulmate connection with a DA a while ago, we waited so long to have sex but then I was so disappointed to see that sexually we weren't that compatible (still, AP me wanted him so bad nonetheless...APs would stick around even when sex isn't great, right?). Not having to worry and obsess about a guy's interest all the while not being un-interested myself and having some needs met, is kinda nice. I guess I'm hoping this "insecure dream" will last long, but yeah, as some of you wisely said, it's probably not going to happen. What really struck a chord are the comments about me mistaking this as a "secure base" just because I'm pursued and therefore I feel more in power. Gosh, that might be true. I agree that sooner or later we will need to have a talk to define the situation/expectations better, as I wouldn't dream of being the emotional free-rider here as @introvert suggested. Zero malice on my side for sure, but you're right. I agree that this situation can't last forever unless we're both happy with this baseline level of needs being met (love alexandra 's comments as usual, and sorry if I don't quote all of you but I've found every single comment very insightful). What would happen if he ghosted me? Honestly I feel bad anytime people act like assholes, colleagues or friends included, so yeah I would feel bad but that doesn't necessarily signal, I think, insecure attachment, just being a human maybe? I dunno, I am a pretty sensitive person so I would lie if I said any change in his behavior wouldn't sting a bit. But my expectations are so low right now and I am so invested in feeling good after so much suffering that I can't imagine myself being devastated for this. I'd probably be over it quickly after some sadness. The problem then would be the same though: That unbearable emotional void when I'm not involved with anyone. This is really what makes me hardcore AP, and it is my top priority to fix this. But I've been working on this for so long now, that it's become somehow familiar and I can sit with it knowing that I'll survive. It's just massive sadness creeping up sometimes followed by a better day usually, in a sort of neverending cycle. To overcome codependency though, I feel like this is my boundary: Not rushing into anything with anyone just because that void feels unbearable. Does that make sense? Actually, learning how to live with that void equals being secure to me. So part of my journey is definitely not to stick with someone just in order to not feel that void. I don't want to get into a relationship with this guy just because I hate feeling that void. That would bring me back to my old codependent patterns. I want to choose a partner, not to need it. But thank you guys for helping me understand these dynamics better. I don't want to be the DA here or anything. I've thought he might accept this but if that isn't the case, it's fair if he walks away. Maybe I'll start the conversation myself so things are clear and no one gets hurt. I'm rooting for you Anne. And I'm really glad you feel quiet content at the moment, especially since you say you were suffering for a long time. I understand the void you feel when out of a relationship. I feel it too. I feel it now, since it's been so long since I dated actually. An existential emptiness so to speak. Im just worried about a few potential red flags that might cause you some pain down the road. I'm not an expert. So take what I say with a pinch of salt. Just notice a few things that resonate with my experiences,and in hindsight are now things I feel wary of. For example you say you are searching for situations that make you feel better overall. But I think it's important to clarify do you mean better overall long term, or short term? What I mean is this guy basically like your co-dependant equivalent of methadone? Your getting your "hit" from a less dangerous/intense source maybe, but is it still just a "hit" that helps you avoid a painful reality? which is the source of most addictions I'm told. Could perhaps the situation that might make you grow be sitting with that uncomfortable aloneness you felt before? I'm sure it has something to do with building a better relationship to yourself, but I'm not quiet there in my journey to understand that concept. So maybe someone else can add more on that. My fear as previously discussed is the fact this guy is chasing you is giving you false sense of secure. Because I'v been there. Was with a girl for around 6 months and thinking wow, this is so much healthier than situations I'v been in before. She doesn't seem anywhere near as volatile as people I'v been with previously and seems to want me. Same as you, didn't feel the need to Google behaviours, had some really great deep conversations, great sex, really intimate connection. And felt secure enough to continue with other areas of my life, often times barely even thinking about her.....But I only felt that faux security because I knew subconsciously I'd get my hit of intimacy with her a couple times a week. Then suddenly the ghosting came, and I was heart broken. literally like a drug addict going through withdrawal. couldn't eat, couldnt sleep, ruminating, internalizing things as my fault. struggled at work etc. And all that came after me being completely convinced that I didn't need her, and If she left I'd be totally fine. But when she did, I wasn't. My feelings to that were human as you rightly said. But my reactions were very insecure. And I realized after just how manybted flags I ignored. I don't want to tell you to stop enjoying yourself with this guy. I'm just a dude l, on a forum struggling with his own sh*t. For all I know it might turn out to be the most secure relationship of your life lol. I just get a feeling like "...ugggh this feels....familiar, from your post. I guess I'm just asking you to try be mindful, I mean really mindful of your reality and your thoughts/motivations. Also read Pia Mellody "facing love addiction" I think it would be a great read for you.
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 30, 2021 17:31:37 GMT
For the record, I think this is a fantastic illustration of the lack of malice in an avoidant's actions. It's not malice it's unawareness that's operating when there is an insecure dynamic at play, on both the anxious and avoidant side. Two very different perspectives, not out to get the other but not out to protect the other either. Holding the other's well being in heart and mind, as well as one's own, is the foundation of secure relating and what I strive for in my relationships today. I would agree. well said. The difficult ethical point which comes from it though. Are most actions really ever malicious? Or just unaware. For example, the Narcassist. If they lack insight that their behaviours are manipulative can they really be blamed for what they do? I'm not saying yes, or no. Just that it's a difficult ethical question. And taking that to the extreme end of the argument, is the person that beats their children malicious if they grew up in an environment where they were beaten and it became the normal way to discipline a child? My experienced with borderlines initially resulting in a feeling of blame, but quickly turned to empathy when I realized they are often literally unaware of how ineffective/dangerous their actions are. I'm getting beyond the scope of attachment styles here. But You get my point. The grey areas of relational ethics are very grey. Hard to answer. I think about this every day. Even so far as to question the law, lol. Like murderers and such. Obviously not innocent if one legitimately murders someone else, but I don't think we have 100% free will. That's obvious, no?
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Post by annieb on Jun 30, 2021 18:00:10 GMT
I agree, it's obvious and evident. And for example, a person, who's been tortured their whole life, finally kills their torturer by law will be convicted of murder. or when you watch the ticktocs and people are cheering prisoners, who murdered other child molesters, they are getting applause and their accounts replenished. There always seem to be exceptions to the ethics and morals. Life is long. Things change, customs change, and we change. I am on the side of applauding the killers of the child molesters in this very moment. But the child molester was most likely themselves violated growing up. So how do we avenge them and should we? Can we?
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 30, 2021 18:06:27 GMT
All very good questions, annieb. Thanks for sharing. This is a big reason why I love this forum. People here are very insightful and intelligent (emotionally and otherwise).
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Post by mrob on Jul 3, 2021 16:23:58 GMT
From your original post, I think you’re triggered already, in the act of putting distance between you when he tries to see you more. The triggering is in the dread that comes before the pushing away.
I’ve sat on both sides of this insecure fence. I fell hopelessly for a FWB with obvious problems that would normally be dealbreakers for me. I didn’t think I could fall. In fact, I thought falling was a load of rubbish for me. For me, falling seems to be mostly an attachment related response, which isn’t pleasant.
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Post by maryisback on Jul 11, 2021 4:01:06 GMT
My philosophy has always been, if it feels good, why rock the boat? I have had FBs that have lasted years. BUT no, none of them were a secure base (or I should say, I was not a secure base), none of them meant much to me and none of them helped me be more secure. FBs are easy. They don't need much watering, they serve a purpose and don't complicate my life. Can you tell I am DA? LOL.
For an AP, I would think it would feel a bit like a security blanket though for the times you don't have a relationship. It's something to soothe the inner demon. For a DA, it's a way to get needs met without an entanglement (demands).
A DA could probably be a forever FWB where it will eventually be unsatisfying for an AP or not enough.
But back to my original point. If it serves your purpose for now, why over analyze it?
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annes
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by annes on Jul 31, 2021 23:44:15 GMT
Thanks everyone for your answers. Time for an update. I've been sitting with the discomfort of loneliness for so long, that I am now somehow skeptical of this idea krolle - I'm not attributing it to you! - of emotional martyr, of avoiding dating if it's not leading to something serious because it's a sign of insecurity etc. If anything, hurt is always around the corner anyway, loneliness sucks, being rejected sucks, so at least why not having some fun between one hurt and another lol. I mean, at least this is what I need right now, let's see it as a transition phase between deep loneliness working on myself and being able to look for a relationship in a secure way. I really value the importance of being able to sit with loneliness, but I've felt the need to enjoy life without expectations, taking a break from that for a little while.
So this is what I've learnt. Had 2FWBs in the last three months, and it seems like I made progress. The guy I was talking about in the post turned out to be very secure. For the first time, I've found myself being attracted to this quality. In the past I couldn't care less - the more avoidant you were, the more I wanted to earn your attention and felt drawn to you. Secure showing your actual feelings? Turn off. Now it's really like something changed. After two years of emotional turmoil and the last one actively working on overcoming insecurity, I find myself naturally admiring security. The guy admitted feelings for me and was so mature in the way he handled my response, which to be honest was a massive turn on. I respect him a lot and feel like a sense of being adults enjoying each other company. We ended it in good terms. When we ended it, I didn't start craving him like crazy as I used to, I just have this feeling that we had a nice thing together and there is mutual esteem, but I don't want a relationship. And for someone who's been historically codependent, being okay with saying "I don't want a relationship" is something. It was so easy to communicate. I admire his comfort with vulnerability and I think he actually taught me something valuable - that kind of comfort with showing how you feel without putting pressure and giving a sense that if you'll be rejected you'll survive. I don't know how to better explain it.
The second guy was an entirely different thing. There was massive attraction and maybe more shallow but fun interactions. After a while he started reaching out less, and the thing is: I was pretty sure I didn't want anything more than sex and fun with him, but I started somehow obsessing about him, why isn't he contacting me as much as he used to? etc. This made me realize I was just triggered, which distracted me from the fact that I actually didn't want a relationship with him. THese triggers are dangerous because they trick you into believing you want someone when you actually don't, you are just caught in the trap of anxiety caused by their inconsistent communication. However, and this is the result of months and months of work on myself, instead of waiting for him to be more consistent or chasing him or clinging to him etc. with zero hesitation I've told him clearly I don't like hot/cold and then backed off completely. He told me he "liked me" but I "reached in" and realized something still felt off. I trusted myself more than his words. I didn't want to end up trapped in another toxic cycle so basically I cut him off abruptly and that's it. It is fascinating how easy it was. Zero guilt, zero second-guessing my own decision, zero fantasizing about him - that is, I've become waaayyyy more comfortable with cutting people off than I used to be. In the past this would have been the start of an endless frustrating cycle where I'd torture myself over and over. It's like now I've internalized the idea that whenever someone cannot consistently contribute to my wellbeing, 1) they are not going to change, 2) it is okay to cut them off without looking back. No regret at all. I think I'm still insecure deep down because, after all, I am still attracted to avoidance. However, I really can feel a difference. It comes from awareness and keeping a distance between me and the trigger.
Even if there was no deep attachment in either case, I feel like I've learnt something that, no matter how small, can somehow contribute to my journey towards security. More precisely, I've learnt that attachment triggers distract you from yourself and from what you really want. The secure guy gave me so much space to see clearly what I wanted, because there were zero triggers. It's like a cloudless sky. The flakey guy triggered me, which for a moment made me believe I wanted him, but all the work I've done on myself has helped in recognizing the pattern and being able to back off.
maryisback , good question, but to be honest, I am a person who does a lot of introspection and I always want to learn from experiences, so I don't see this as pointless overanalyzing. I do this kind of checking in and reflection with everything in my life, this doesn't prevent me from enjoying things, rather, it is a way to make sense of things and putting them into a broader narrative and meaning. I think probably most of you were right saying that a secure base cannot come from a FWB because the stakes are just too low. But I also feel like I've benefited from this lightness, so to speak, to come out of that "emotional martyr" of sitting with the discomfort of loneliness for so long with zero expectations.
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