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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 0:31:51 GMT
iz42 Yes. Everything in your post is describing aspects of codependency, AP, or both. I felt like I had to do everything perfectly or I'd be left when I was dating avoidants, and usually I was right. They needed everything to be perfect because they couldn't handle true vulnerability, conflict, or feeling out of control of their own environment (which, in a healthy relationship, sometimes you are because you do need to be interdependent and balance someone else's needs). In those case the problematic feelings were on both sides. And you're right, it is exhausting. I think it's really good that you're identifying all your feelings and also the fact that they're not coming from him. I'm assuming he's not doing anything to make you feel like you need to be perfect? Not triggering you to walk on eggshells? AP is all about wanting to overfunction for the partner while ignoring your own needs. Codependency is wanting to do and fix everything for the other person, not exactly knowing where the boundary is where you end and they begin, and anticipating their needs with hypersensitivity even if they haven't asked or indicated they want you to do or help them with anything. My inkling is you're functioning from a very old script with this dynamic from earlier in your life that you need to rewire. Which starts with getting a stronger sense of your own boundaries and accepting that it's okay for you to have needs (even better that you're already practicing communicating those needs), and includes the exercise you're doing now of identifying your feelings and dividing them up into what's a you issue, what's a him issue, and what's a relationship (your dynamics interacting together) issue. There's also an aspect of learning that it's okay to make mistakes in life, and that's even how you learn. There's a definite fear of failure embedded in insecure attachment styles, and I think for anxious-leaning insecures, it comes out in shame, fear, and a perfectionism defense mechanism to try to protect against abandonment. I don’t think he’s doing anything to make me feel like I need to walk on eggshells. There are differences that have come to light and potential conflicts for us to work through so I think I’m feeling threatened by those. I can’t tell if any of this stuff will be a dealbreaker in the future. I know that at its core I’m dealing with a fear of abandonment. And it’s also behavior that I witnessed between my parents, as my mom was AP and my dad was emotionally abusive. My parents were terrible at modeling healthy conflict resolution so conflict makes me panic. It’s frustrating to me that even with all these years of work on myself I don’t seem to be making progress. I guess I haven’t really had a chance to practice being in a more reciprocal relationship before so it’s somewhat understandable that I’m still learning. it’s probably inevitable that some of this stuff would get triggered. My understanding is that codependency is a dynamic that usually happens when one partner is more unstable and the other becomes the caretaker/fixer, but my boyfriend isn’t unstable at all. So part of this is seeing that he can take care of himself and backing off. The hardest thing is for me to feel like a burden. That is a tape that replays over and over. It feels absolutely intolerable. And I had a very chaotic childhood so I think it comes from wanting to hold everything together when there was a lot of scary instability. I feel embarrassed that I’m still struggling with this stuff here. Thanks to you all for listening. I haven't had time to read everything in detail, but I feel compelled to highlight this point you made: feeling like a burden. My own experience is that I tried to work very hard at not being a burden to someone else, and then overcompensating by also trying to fix their issues etc etc. This feeling of being a burden may manifest in a relationship, and you may mistakenly try to fix it by focusing on the relationship/partner and how you behave in it. Backing off when your bf can take care of himself is an example of this - it's a positive behavior, but it can also be a response to "behave well" in a relationship by mimicking healthy behaviors, but not necessarily comes from a secure healthy space within yourself. The fundamental issue, however, that is often missed, is that this feeling of burden should be addressed by fixing your relationship with YOURSELF. It is about becoming comfortable with yourself, your strengths and limitations, and importantly - knowing that you can learn and deal with things as they come up. By being more aware and accepting of your value, worth, strengths, and limitations (or very simply, what you do bring to the table), you also become less concerned with what you don't bring to the table and feeling like a burden. In other words, you are there to contribute XYZ, not to do everything from A-Z. When we have chaotic childhoods (i had parents with terrible conflict resolution too), we feel compelled to do whatever we can to bring some stability and sense into the situation. And because the situation is chaotic, there is never only one thing you do that works, so you learnt to try everything to see what hits. that ranges from fixing your own problems to fixing other people's problems. and one typical thing is to not be a burden so that you don't add to an already chaotic situation. You seem plenty self-aware and it's great that you are able to point out and think about all these different issues! Progress is illusive; quite a few people here said that it seemed very slowgoing and then it switched suddenly one day, so it takes time and effort to get to that point. Keep it up and don't be so hard on yourself!
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Post by iz42 on Nov 22, 2021 6:29:11 GMT
I don’t think he’s doing anything to make me feel like I need to walk on eggshells. There are differences that have come to light and potential conflicts for us to work through so I think I’m feeling threatened by those. I can’t tell if any of this stuff will be a dealbreaker in the future. I know that at its core I’m dealing with a fear of abandonment. And it’s also behavior that I witnessed between my parents, as my mom was AP and my dad was emotionally abusive. My parents were terrible at modeling healthy conflict resolution so conflict makes me panic. It’s frustrating to me that even with all these years of work on myself I don’t seem to be making progress. I guess I haven’t really had a chance to practice being in a more reciprocal relationship before so it’s somewhat understandable that I’m still learning. it’s probably inevitable that some of this stuff would get triggered. My understanding is that codependency is a dynamic that usually happens when one partner is more unstable and the other becomes the caretaker/fixer, but my boyfriend isn’t unstable at all. So part of this is seeing that he can take care of himself and backing off. The hardest thing is for me to feel like a burden. That is a tape that replays over and over. It feels absolutely intolerable. And I had a very chaotic childhood so I think it comes from wanting to hold everything together when there was a lot of scary instability. I feel embarrassed that I’m still struggling with this stuff here. Thanks to you all for listening. I haven't had time to read everything in detail, but I feel compelled to highlight this point you made: feeling like a burden. My own experience is that I tried to work very hard at not being a burden to someone else, and then overcompensating by also trying to fix their issues etc etc. This feeling of being a burden may manifest in a relationship, and you may mistakenly try to fix it by focusing on the relationship/partner and how you behave in it. Backing off when your bf can take care of himself is an example of this - it's a positive behavior, but it can also be a response to "behave well" in a relationship by mimicking healthy behaviors, but not necessarily comes from a secure healthy space within yourself. The fundamental issue, however, that is often missed, is that this feeling of burden should be addressed by fixing your relationship with YOURSELF. It is about becoming comfortable with yourself, your strengths and limitations, and importantly - knowing that you can learn and deal with things as they come up. By being more aware and accepting of your value, worth, strengths, and limitations (or very simply, what you do bring to the table), you also become less concerned with what you don't bring to the table and feeling like a burden. In other words, you are there to contribute XYZ, not to do everything from A-Z. When we have chaotic childhoods (i had parents with terrible conflict resolution too), we feel compelled to do whatever we can to bring some stability and sense into the situation. And because the situation is chaotic, there is never only one thing you do that works, so you learnt to try everything to see what hits. that ranges from fixing your own problems to fixing other people's problems. and one typical thing is to not be a burden so that you don't add to an already chaotic situation. You seem plenty self-aware and it's great that you are able to point out and think about all these different issues! Progress is illusive; quite a few people here said that it seemed very slowgoing and then it switched suddenly one day, so it takes time and effort to get to that point. Keep it up and don't be so hard on yourself! @shiningstar you made a bunch of great points. Thank you! You're right that there is a lot here that I need to work out on my own. I also need to work on having more compassion for myself. I think one issue I'm facing here is that I can be in a very secure place on my own and then I get into a relationship and all of this "burden" stuff gets stirred up again. That's why it feels like progress is so slow. Before I met him I had done quite a bit of work on my self worth and I was feeling strong in myself. I have worked on maintaining my own life outside the relationship and we agree that it's important for us to have our own interests and our own lives. I may need to start by "acting" secure in the relationship and then work on the underlying issues in therapy and on my own. I feel like I'm going to have to practice trusting myself and trusting him. It's only been 5 months and the vulnerability of opening myself up and voicing my needs has been terrifying. It's been instructive to see old patterns play out and to see how desperately I feel that I have to hold everything together in the face of potential difficulty or conflict.. when he is very competent on his own. He is surprisingly well-adjusted and being with him calms my nervous system for the most part. He has been patiently reminding me that he can take care of himself. In most ways we feel like equal partners. It's just in moments of stress where I get triggered and reenact old habits. I think I'm just going to have to keep reconnecting with myself and catching myself when I go into these thought patterns because otherwise it's not going to change.
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Post by iz42 on Nov 22, 2021 21:17:13 GMT
One other thought -- I don't think i've ever been in a relationship where my partner could meet my needs in terms of emotional support and availability. Logically I know that I deserve those things and that they are part of a healthy relationship, but in reality it feels very vulnerable to be in a position where I'm asking someone to support me and they might let me down. It feels more vulnerable than any other part of this so far, and because it's so scary I end up thinking I'm "doing it wrong." I have so little practice with it. I end up wondering whether I'm being reasonable in terms of what I'm asking. I think it's just going to take time and practice to trust myself and see that he actually can show up for me.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 22, 2021 21:37:15 GMT
iz42, I'm sure you're not being unreasonable in what you're asking of him. Even if it feels that way because you're still practicing asking anyone for anything, and it's really hard to do that for the first time. It takes a while, but it's a muscle you can strengthen through practice. The progression into secure in this specific aspect is knowing you can still rely on yourself and will be okay if he can't meet a need one day. It's learning to be centered when under stress, sitting comfortably even when you're not in full control of something, which is done by practicing not abandoning yourself. This doesn't mean letting everything slide if he's not showing up for you on a regular basis, just that you can pick up the slack for yourself without it being a big deal if he's having an off day here and there. Or if he misses some of your bids for attention (but is still responsive to a majority of them). Ultimately, you can't control when other people will meet your needs, but you can learn to calm your nervous system and self-soothe and be more comfortable accepting yourself and relying on yourself in general. Which eventually will also lead to you not feeling like your partners can't meet your needs. A big part of that for APs is not having a good sense of how to emotionally regulate yourself, as your upbringing conditioned you that others regulate you and you regulate them. A smaller part of that is if you've only dated other insecures who reinforced that over and over while not meeting your needs (because that's pretty standard and inherent to the anxious-avoidant dynamic). Put those together, and your feelings still sound very normal AP to me. It's just a work in progress. And I'll reiterate something I've said before, agreeing with @shiningstar reminding you to be compassionate towards yourself: it took me about 2 years to feel comfortable in being secure even after I earned secure on paper. At that point I knew what was secure but it still felt foreign and like I had to get to know myself again because I couldn't predict my previously patterned responses to things anymore. I know you've read my thread over that time about dating as an earned secure. Now it's natural, but even reading and writing here to reinforce what was secure versus old insecures patterns (like when I recognized where in my old process someone new posting was coming from) was important the first year. It was kind of a constant reiteration and reminder of where I was trying to go.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 4:59:42 GMT
just to reiterate what alexandra said, a key component of earning secure is about practicing BEING secure, not just acting secure. security is a feeling, and acts of security are outcomes of that feeling.it takes lots of practice allowing that feeling to exist, because it can feel very foreign. You can behave securely, because that can be healthy for the relationship, but do not forget to make lots of space for feelings of security and the benefits and challenges of having those feelings! The latter (making space) is mainly for your benefit, not for the relationship. If someone lets you down consistently, or is very unpredictable on meeting your needs, that is exactly the information you need to judge the future of your relationship. the bigger question is - do you know what your emotional needs are and what they look like? What exactly are you asking for? Hugs? talks? walks? Try to come up with specific examples of (what actions) you would like to see in response to (what needs) you have, so that you gain clarity around what your needs really are. Otherwise, asking for a hug cos you had a bad day can feel like asking for the sky. I used to think that, and then I see people asking their partners for $50, 000 (and getting it) like it's not a big deal. Not that I need the 50grand, but I realized damnnnnn, I could do better in life. haha.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 0:52:45 GMT
I think you're doing great iz42 , to be so aware and working on this wound of yours. A note from the other side- it's stressful to experience a partner who cannot receive with grace. Other people have generosity and caring a inside of them which they want to express to their partner. To block that off with the mindset of having to do it all and by not being receptive to the efforts of others causes hardship in a relationship as well as within yourself. You're going to get there, keep up the good work!
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Post by iz42 on Nov 26, 2021 23:40:25 GMT
Thanks to you all for your support. I really appreciate it. I think it's just a matter of trial and error with this stuff. Part of the problem is that my boyfriend has been very stressed with work lately and it makes it harder for me to gauge where I stand when he's so overwhelmed. I've been picking up some of the slack just because he's so busy, which seems only fair, but then sometimes it's hard to figure out appropriate limits. The past month has been a great lesson in assessing my own limits. It's also hard to know what I can ask of him. For example, it's helpful for me to have updates if he's going to work beyond his normal hours. I asked him to do this, and the next day he went MIA again instead of updating me. I was waiting around for hours to find out whether we were still going to hang out that day. It's not like I expect constant updates - just one text if he's running late. He apologized, but my response was to assume that I had asked too much and needed to lower my expectations. When he is dealing with his own stuff, my instinct is to make myself as small and inconspicuous as possible so that I don't add to his stress. This stuff is deeply ingrained and very hard to unlearn. After processing in therapy, I do feel like it was a reasonable thing for me to ask him to update me. I have learned a lot even in just a few months, but whew it is difficult.
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Post by anne12 on Nov 27, 2021 7:49:37 GMT
iz42 So what did you do in the meantime when he forgot to get back to you ? Have you seen the post about moving forward when we are in a waiting position ? I like this tip: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2890/waitingI think that it is difficult to “deal” with men when they are stressed - also because they get tunnel vision and are hyper focused on their goal. (work). You can maybe ask your boyfriend to type a text in his phone, so that he can just press the button to send you a text if he knows he is running late or he is not able to see you. For some couples where one of them is an ambivalent. the partner can also just make a standard text in their phone they can send to their partner during the day in order to let their partner know that they are thinking of them, even if they are super busy and focused at work. But if one partner (or both) are super stressed over a longer period of time and they dont attend to eachother it can damage the relationship Good for you to ask for what you needed. You dont live together do you ? When asking for a need or when setting boundaries you can also write it down and give it to your boyfriend. I use these models myself. (When it’s more complicated than asking a boyfriend to call back) jebkinnisonforum.com/post/21793/ - needs jebkinnisonforum.com/post/25919/ - boundarie setting guide jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/3044/reach-out-help-care-loveRick Hanson - letting yourself be loved - youtu.be/35kztOPhY1Y
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Post by alexandra on Nov 27, 2021 8:06:56 GMT
iz42, asking for an update is fine. Was that only a one time thing? Did he hear your request and correct for it the next time? (And the majority of the future times?)
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Post by iz42 on Nov 27, 2021 18:19:03 GMT
iz42 , asking for an update is fine. Was that only a one time thing? Did he hear your request and correct for it the next time? (And the majority of the future times?) He did correct it and he's updated me the majority of the time since that happened.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 27, 2021 19:30:11 GMT
iz42, it is hard to unlearn the dysfunctional behavioral patterns, as you said. But what you describe, you voiced a need and he listened and incorporated your feedback to attempt to resolve the problem and continued to do so consistently, is secure relating in a relationship He didn't have to mind read, you communicated directly, he received the information, you found a solution together (he took your suggestion of fixing it by checking in), and now the last piece is internalizing that he's not secretly resentful and if he makes a rare mistake and forgets it's nothing personal. That's a good example of the balance between independence and interdependence.
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