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Post by lovebunny on Aug 20, 2021 20:36:57 GMT
I just finished reading LIVING WITH LIMERENCE, will reread. I've seen this word in various forums and books, but just thought was an old-fashioned term for what has been re-branded as "New Relationship Energy" or "love addiction" depending on who you ask. It helped me to look at limerence as a more specific psychological phenomena. Definitely, I am "a limerent"--someone prone to this state. Most AP are. Falling in love for us can feel like a mental disorder. We struggle to concentrate on anything else, and our beloved's behavior towards us far too greatly colors our moods.
My current partner is non-limerent. He doesn't experience falling in love this way! He doesn't lose his mind in New Relationship Energy and is much more chill about relationships. It's securely attached, yes, but it's easy for him to be secure because he doesn't experience the limerent state.
According to the book, to trigger limerence, the beloved must at least show some interest, intermittent reinforcement is one way to create limerence but not the only way, and there must be obstacles to us being together.
My current partner is definitely one of the archetypes that trigger me with his whole credo of free love and his (over)valuing of personal autonomy. Yet he rarely veers into anything I recognize as avoidance. He definitely isn't using intermittent reinforcement, he's reliable, he's invested in our relationship, he even wants me to move in with him. The obstacle, then, becomes my own ability to recognize that he IS both feet with me, if not in a way I recognize because it's different from mine.
The good news is limerence doesn't seem to last more than a few years and I've already lasted a year and a half. If I look at it like a fleeting mental state, I can use some of the tools I've learned to detach after breakups with narcissists and borderlines, maybe free up mental space from thinking about the relationship all the time.
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Post by krolle on Aug 21, 2021 14:11:30 GMT
Great post. I might check out said book you recommend. I definately have a hard time with limerance too.
As an FA, and quiet a romantic but ultimately unavailable guy, I also trigger it a lot in my partners.
I think the barrier to overcome this state is that I don't know what love would look like without it. I have heard a lot of people talk about the difference between the two. And how in their secure "real love" there was a lack of sparks comparatively.
But then I struggle with that, because I say well, if there's no spark, what's the point in being in the relationship. This type of love seems more goal driven and 'clinical' to me. which I have a hard time articulating the reasons....But it feels wrong...like self centred or something.
As a general rule, this relationship to self and looking after ones own needs creates a sense of disgust in me that's been a big barrier to progress. I was conditioned to be a martyr in relationships, and that it is virtuous to be that way.
My expected relationship path has a grim outlook. it's one of the reasons I struggle with commitment. you can see why if I wholeheartedly believe the following inevitable trajectory.
1.Limerance 2.Conflict 3.Boredom 4.indifference 5.dissolution
I understand that's a very insecure way of looking at love. But as of yet I can't seem to see things another way. The secure perspective is not accessible to me. As much as so twist myself into knots to try see it.
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Post by annieb on Aug 21, 2021 15:06:44 GMT
krolle - could you describe what you think the four stages of a secure relationship would be? Like you described an insecure relationship? Could you also describe “sparks”? What are they?
I like that you say that secure love is self centered and maybe insecure love is then other centered? What do you think of that? Is it a value judgement as well?
What do you think you deserve? And what do you think you would need to do to become “self centered”?
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Post by lovebunny on Aug 21, 2021 15:56:41 GMT
The book talked about "spark" and said it is actually something we should avoid, lol. Not sure how I feel about that part of the doctor's philosophy, and a few other things seemed unrealistic, like a limerent is not supposed to even flirt with anyone outside of their relationship, ever.
But it nailed the reason why falling in love rarely feels like puppies and roses to me. He's calling "limerent" what I call "lovesick."
Incidentally, in my longest, most stable relationship (my marriage) I did not experience limerence. But ultimately there wasn't enough passion to overcome the incompatibilities that grew greater over our years together.
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Post by iz42 on Aug 21, 2021 18:38:24 GMT
The book talked about "spark" and said it is actually something we should avoid, lol. Not sure how I feel about that part of the doctor's philosophy, and a few other things seemed unrealistic, like a limerent is not supposed to even flirt with anyone outside of their relationship, ever. Do secure people experience sparks? Is that unique to limerence? I have secure friends that have described feeling like there was a spark early in a relationship... but maybe they were describing something different.
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Post by alexandra on Aug 21, 2021 20:09:45 GMT
iz42, my best way to describe it is there's attraction without anxiety. For me, "sparks" were in retrospect always an overwhelmed nervous system. They would come up either because I didn't know someone well and I was projecting positive fantasy elements into the gaps, which makes turning things into a fantasy much easier, right?? Or because I was encountering attachment conflict and not having my needs fully met because I was dating avoidants. So that would spark all sorts of anxiety for connection, which would be temporarily quieted by physical intimacy, which created a desire for more physical intimacy, and in that sense a lack of stability would be very exciting! And exceedingly stressful. I felt like if I kept living my life that way, the level of stress was sure to have very negative long-term impacts on my body because that's how life works. On top of feeling emotionally devastated all the time and not getting any closer to accomplishing any of my romantic life stage and family planning goals. In my secure relationship, the attraction is there, physical intimacy is there, but without the anxiety it feels like safety and connection. Even though that means no heightened fantasy state of emotional and anxiety overwhelm, I'm much happier because I can be a complete person on my own whether he's around or not, and he adds to my life instead of defines it. But I still prefer to be around him. The way he puts it is, in the past (since remember, he's also earned secure and had his fair share of tumultuous relationships with APs and FAs), he felt he had to expend all his emotional energy on overfunctioning to keep the other equally insecure person happy and keep the relationship going and constantly solving conflict that often had nothing to do with him (for example, exes triggered anxious by family dynamics) and then repairing with the significant other after rocky fights between them. All while feeling he wouldn't be accepted as himself if he were completely authentic because they seemed to need something slightly different, and he wanted to give them what they seemed to need. He said with me, he gets to expend all emotional relationship energy on simply enjoying the relationship and not worrying about it, which then allows him to use that energy to plan fun things (and responsible adult things, like career and cohabiting type stuff) and keep enjoying our time together instead. krolle, I completely understand what you're saying, but your view of a secure dynamic of a more selfish and possibly pointless love and insecure dynamic of being a martyr as more ideal is a great example of what the disconnect between secure and insecure is. I don't think I ever thought of secure love as all out selfish, though it was quite foreign, because it is still two people committed and devoted to each other. However, if you're looking at it as mostly transactional, then you'll of course see it that way. And if the concept of a familiar, comfortable, and trusting love and devotion without the same types of sparks is too foreign a concept (and again, I get it, it was to me as well), then of course it would seem like well if it's not intensity all the time then what keeps you together, must be convenience which is transactional. The food for thought I'll give you is, the martyr model develops when a kid is put in a situation where they are forced to accept unacceptable behavior from their primary adult caretakers. How else do you justify being treated like crap or controlled or manipulated or ignored while needing to stay attached for your own survival? In a lot of situations, it's being convinced that love is sacrifice and it's commendable to accept any treatment and forgive that person over and over, for men there's even more pressure to do it stoically. I'm VERY familiar with the martyr model because of the personality disorders that run in my extended family. Just keep reading the different perspectives because I too had to break out of that mindset that was drilled into me when I didn't understand what healthy boundaries actually were. I think the insecure approach is the one that is selfish because it's driven by defense mechanisms and isn't really about the romantic partner or who they are. Which isn't the fault of the insecure person, it's part of the lack of awareness and not learning those tools growing up. But that's what leads to boredom and indifference. What is the baseline state of an FA who spends a lot of life being triggered either anxious or avoidant? What's it feel like to not be triggered? I have long hypothesized the answer is... bored and numb. So of course relationships will start going that direction once you're not overwhelmed either by limerance or by them triggering you. Because to change it, you need to work through some of that inward stuff so that your baseline shifts. It's really difficult to know what you actually want, connect sustainably with someone else, and make deliberate decisions that aren't based in a pattern of self-protection when that's still your default baseline state. But that's why you're asking all these questions, to figure out what you want to do with the answers.
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Post by mrob on Aug 22, 2021 5:59:56 GMT
The book talked about "spark" and said it is actually something we should avoid, lol. Not sure how I feel about that part of the doctor's philosophy, and a few other things seemed unrealistic, like a limerent is not supposed to even flirt with anyone outside of their relationship, ever. But it nailed the reason why falling in love rarely feels like puppies and roses to me. He's calling "limerent" what I call "lovesick." Incidentally, in my longest, most stable relationship (my marriage) I did not experience limerence. But ultimately there wasn't enough passion to overcome the incompatibilities that grew greater over our years together. Same as you. The longest and most successful relationship I’ve had (2nd marriage) was without the full on crazy spark.
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Post by iz42 on Aug 22, 2021 6:14:07 GMT
alexandra that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining. I think some of my confusion is about definitions…some people use “sparks” to refer to romantic or physical attraction in a generic sense. Up until my 30s I only dated secure and secure-leaning AP guys, and I only experienced limerence with unavailable crushes that I never dated. Some of those crushes lasted for years and I remember my nervous system getting intensely activated by them. I would obsess and develop elaborate fantasies in a very AP way. In actual relationships it felt different (I would describe those relationships as primarily secure if dysfunctional in other ways) and I didn’t experience limerence in relationships until I dated two avoidant guys in a row in my 30s. Horribly painful, but I guess also good in a way because it forced me to really deal with my attachment issues that had been bubbling up for most of my life.
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Post by krolle on Aug 22, 2021 11:28:00 GMT
krolle - could you describe what you think the four stages of a secure relationship would be? Like you described an insecure relationship? Could you also describe “sparks”? What are they? I like that you say that secure love is self centered and maybe insecure love is then other centered? What do you think of that? Is it a value judgement as well? What do you think you deserve? And what do you think you would need to do to become “self centered”? I appreciate the way you ask the right questions to help us come to our own conclusions. It's quiet enjoyable that you validate the thought process, but also try steer in a healthier direction. Alexandra is quiet good at this too. Having said that. I'm afraid I could not describe the stages of a secure relationship without cheating and googling it. Though I'm sure I'v heard of them whilst listening to Thais Gibson's videos. The words power struggle and bliss spring to mind. Though my brain would convince me they were a fallacy anyway in a cynical manner. In terms of what sparks would mean. Then I'll tie in to what Alexandra said. They are mostly a feeling I guess. That is a combination of the sensation of neurochemical and transmitter activity plus some accompanying cognitive excitement. An intoxicating feeling. Scared but excited. Butterflies in the stomach. A blend of excitement and anxiety. But for me personally the anxiety part still has to be there for the sparks to be there because of the nature of value and loss. If I value something, I fear losing it. I have had 'relatively' successful relationships without what I consider the spark. But as has previously been said on this thread, there wasn't that biochemical passion to fight for the relationship when difficulties arose. I didn't have the accompanying anxiety because I didn't really care if they came or went in the end, so there wasn't much fear of loss. Hence little anxiety. As was stated by Alexandra It would be desirable to have the good stuff without the anxiety. But I'm too insecure about loss to have one in absence of the other. It's like holding onto a winning lottery ticked before you cash it in. It's so exciting to have, but the fear of the wind blowing it away or dropping it down a storm drain would make you nervous as all hell. This feeds into the other point you and Alexandra made regarding self love and faith in self in general etc. Then I can completely understand your logic. To bring back my lottery ticket metaphor, the fear of losing said lottery ticket would be somewhat mitigated if you already had a bunch of other secure sources of income. And especially if you were confident enough in your ability to provide money for yourself that you weren't going to be broke and destitute if you lost the ticket. This is of course true with many fear based dysfunctional relationship behaviours. The belief that I cannot look after that need for my self. The other becomes a source of both reverence, fear and often resentment, because we need them to fulfil something we can't ourselves. But because they are 'other'we also can't control them. So we fear. The obvious solution is to learn to love oneself enough to provide yourself with that knowledge you can at least somewhat meet your own needs. This is part of my current self development goals. But personally I can't find a way to do it in a healthy manner. Take for example, the need for companionship and sexual intimacy. In the past I have been able to have feel confident in meeting that need 'myself' in a pseudo healthy way, and certainly with less short term discomfort. But It wasn't really healthy, my confidence came from simply getting good at meeting women. (yes Alexandra, my copy of 'The Truth' arrived today, I'm sure much will resonate with me lol) To become 'self centred'I would have to redefine my very deep intrinsic value system. Which sounds like an insurmountable task. Though I'll give it a shot. The sense of disgust at even thought of being self centred is a huge barrier. Having said that my latest readings are leading me to concur with Alexandras statement that the kind of "love" I engage in is actually very self centred in an ironic way. I'm very co-dependant, and form the martyr side of that dance. But whilst my partners 'abuse' is very obvious. My caretaing and martyrdom is just as selfish, if in a less obvious way. But the proceeding struggle I have with that and what Alexandra said is my fundamental belief that all human relationships are transactional. And it seems, to believe anything else is far too Disney for me. Though, as usual I concede it may just be my perception as opposed to reality. Jeez, I feel twisted in knots after writing that lol.
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Post by krolle on Aug 22, 2021 11:39:49 GMT
"bored and numb" Very astute Alexandra. Throw some fear in there and you have worked out the cocktail 😁
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Post by DearLover on Jan 3, 2022 11:10:18 GMT
Such a great topic. I am still 'in love' with a FA even after he broke up with me in March 19, so it will be 3 years soon. We had a very short and casual fling that lasted 2.5 months, started with magic but the final few weeks was dragged on by his anxiety in losing what we had and fear of being together, so definitely intermittent reinforcement there, it was brutal. He came back around a couple of times but I remained strong not wanting to get into another cycle which sometimes I deeply regret thinking it would be better been on the rollercoaster rather than without him.
I still pine for him daily and I thought I was healing well but then I decided to check his social media and found out he moved to a different city which spiralled me down again. A month after I found an excuse to text him after a very long time of NC and we had a nice back and forth that he was happy to maintain for a few hours then left the chat and left me hanging when I mentioned the word love - I said something about his cat loving him even more now that he has a garden (he was before living in an apartment) so I guess the word love - loving - freaked him out and scared him away.
Now I am just accepting what I feel but also working everyday on having dignity and self respect. I am not going to lie to myself anymore, I would love to have him in my life and although I accept that he doesn't feel the same way, I am not make me wrong because what I feel is pure and he is an amazing person despite the attachment issue. Working on the fear of never meeting someone that I connect with so deeply.
Check "the crap childhood fairy" on YouTube, she has amazing videos and weekly free zoom meetings for support and techniques healing from childhood trauma.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 3, 2022 15:57:17 GMT
Such a great topic. I am still 'in love' with a FA even after he broke up with me in March 19, so it will be 3 years soon. We had a very short and casual fling that lasted 2.5 months, started with magic but the final few weeks was dragged on by his anxiety in losing what we had and fear of being together, so definitely intermittent reinforcement there, it was brutal. He came back around a couple of times but I remained strong not wanting to get into another cycle which sometimes I deeply regret thinking it would be better been on the rollercoaster rather than without him. I still pine for him daily and I thought I was healing well but then I decided to check his social media and found out he moved to a different city which spiralled me down again. A month after I found an excuse to text him after a very long time of NC and we had a nice back and forth that he was happy to maintain for a few hours then left the chat and left me hanging when I mentioned the word love - I said something about his cat loving him even more now that he has a garden (he was before living in an apartment) so I guess the word love - loving - freaked him out and scared him away. Now I am just accepting what I feel but also working everyday on having dignity and self respect. I am not going to lie to myself anymore, I would love to have him in my life and although I accept that he doesn't feel the same way, I am not make me wrong because what I feel is pure and he is an amazing person despite the attachment issue. Working on the fear of never meeting someone that I connect with so deeply. Check "the crap childhood fairy" on YouTube, she has amazing videos and weekly free zoom meetings for support and techniques healing from childhood trauma. One thing that really helped me was to distinguish what I loved “about” B from B himself. What characteristics were appealing about this guy you dated? Also, 2.5 months is still in the honeymoon phase of things…so you haven’t really seen how the two of you would actually be…whether you truly would be compatible. Even at 10.5 months of dating,I did not fully experience a relationship with B because he was conflicted, which made him unavailable. Moving on was very tough for me when my fantasy of him was reinforced by occasional hanging out. I know you love him…nothing wrong with loving someone…but you can love someone and still acknowledge that the relationship was not giving you what you needed. Hugs.
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Post by DearLover on Jan 3, 2022 23:51:22 GMT
Such a great topic. I am still 'in love' with a FA even after he broke up with me in March 19, so it will be 3 years soon. We had a very short and casual fling that lasted 2.5 months, started with magic but the final few weeks was dragged on by his anxiety in losing what we had and fear of being together, so definitely intermittent reinforcement there, it was brutal. He came back around a couple of times but I remained strong not wanting to get into another cycle which sometimes I deeply regret thinking it would be better been on the rollercoaster rather than without him. I still pine for him daily and I thought I was healing well but then I decided to check his social media and found out he moved to a different city which spiralled me down again. A month after I found an excuse to text him after a very long time of NC and we had a nice back and forth that he was happy to maintain for a few hours then left the chat and left me hanging when I mentioned the word love - I said something about his cat loving him even more now that he has a garden (he was before living in an apartment) so I guess the word love - loving - freaked him out and scared him away. Now I am just accepting what I feel but also working everyday on having dignity and self respect. I am not going to lie to myself anymore, I would love to have him in my life and although I accept that he doesn't feel the same way, I am not make me wrong because what I feel is pure and he is an amazing person despite the attachment issue. Working on the fear of never meeting someone that I connect with so deeply. Check "the crap childhood fairy" on YouTube, she has amazing videos and weekly free zoom meetings for support and techniques healing from childhood trauma. One thing that really helped me was to distinguish what I loved “about” B from B himself. What characteristics were appealing about this guy you dated? Also, 2.5 months is still in the honeymoon phase of things…so you haven’t really seen how the two of you would actually be…whether you truly would be compatible. Even at 10.5 months of dating,I did not fully experience a relationship with B because he was conflicted, which made him unavailable. Moving on was very tough for me when my fantasy of him was reinforced by occasional hanging out. I know you love him…nothing wrong with loving someone…but you can love someone and still acknowledge that the relationship was not giving you what you needed. Hugs. Yes absolutely I am aware that most of it is pure fantasy in my head He is also a self proclaimed perfectionist so I have not seen his normal side just the front he was putting on He is a people pleaser in recovery too so when he got really really involved he suddenly pulled back full force for fear of becoming too attached and dependant and losing himself in pleasing me He is super self aware, very sincere and works hard on his issues with professional help, suffers from chronic migraines and insomnia, it is so sad I have a huge lists of things that I love 'about' him but I know that I also love him himself, it is hard to describe the feeling, I had numerous passionate relationships before, but with this guy, being with him was like being with me - that feeling of having one heart, one body, one mind shared between the two of us, crazy stuff But what I love about him the most is that he knew he would end up taking me on a excruciating painful journey so he spared me, he was in so much pain during the break up but he had the courage to do it anyway, good that he is more rational than I am, there were lots of practical and emotional obstacles between us and he knew I was becoming unhealthy in my mind because of him Now a days I have gratitude Because of him I discovered sides of me that I could never dream possible and pressed on to achieve some big dreams that seemed un-attainable, I opened up to become my best version and I am loving the journey, maybe it is because I want to impress him lol but my life is so much better than it was before him and it is improving so I am glad
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 4, 2022 0:46:45 GMT
One thing that really helped me was to distinguish what I loved “about” B from B himself. What characteristics were appealing about this guy you dated? Also, 2.5 months is still in the honeymoon phase of things…so you haven’t really seen how the two of you would actually be…whether you truly would be compatible. Even at 10.5 months of dating,I did not fully experience a relationship with B because he was conflicted, which made him unavailable. Moving on was very tough for me when my fantasy of him was reinforced by occasional hanging out. I know you love him…nothing wrong with loving someone…but you can love someone and still acknowledge that the relationship was not giving you what you needed. Hugs. Yes absolutely I am aware that most of it is pure fantasy in my head He is also a self proclaimed perfectionist so I have not seen his normal side just the front he was putting on He is a people pleaser in recovery too so when he got really really involved he suddenly pulled back full force for fear of becoming too attached and dependant and losing himself in pleasing me He is super self aware, very sincere and works hard on his issues with professional help, suffers from chronic migraines and insomnia, it is so sad I have a huge lists of things that I love 'about' him but I know that I also love him himself, it is hard to describe the feeling, I had numerous passionate relationships before, but with this guy, being with him was like being with me - that feeling of having one heart, one body, one mind shared between the two of us, crazy stuff But what I love about him the most is that he knew he would end up taking me on a excruciating painful journey so he spared me, he was in so much pain during the break up but he had the courage to do it anyway, good that he is more rational than I am, there were lots of practical and emotional obstacles between us and he knew I was becoming unhealthy in my mind because of him Now a days I have gratitude Because of him I discovered sides of me that I could never dream possible and pressed on to achieve some big dreams that seemed un-attainable, I opened up to become my best version and I am loving the journey, maybe it is because I want to impress him lol but my life is so much better than it was before him and it is improving so I am glad Can you own those achievements and not associate them to him? He may have been a bit of a catalyst, but you took those chances. Associating anything back to him makes the process of moving on harder….but I get the impression that you want to stay connected…and that is fine as long as you accept that choosing this story with him makes you unavailable to anyone else who might be a better fit…especially given how short of a time the two of you were together.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 4, 2022 1:12:39 GMT
Can you own those achievements and not associate them to him? He may have been a bit of a catalyst, but you took those chances. Associating anything back to him makes the process of moving on harder….but I get the impression that you want to stay connected…and that is fine as long as you accept that choosing this story with him makes you unavailable to anyone else who might be a better fit… I want to like this x1,000. He was a meaningful catalyst, but you did the work for yourself from there!
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