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Post by cherrycola on Jan 10, 2022 2:57:12 GMT
If she wanted comfort and was being healthy about it, she could have told you. "I'm overwhelmed, I'd like to vent now and can try fixing later." But there was no way she was going to be self-aware or connected enough with herself to say that. This is an important piece. It sounds like you might have gotten stuck in the drama triangle with her in the past and now you are trying to be healthier about your interactions but she might not have the tools to interact at an adult to adult level. Until I had done enough self work to understand when I was going into the rescuer or victim role, I wasn't able to get out of them. I used to get really annoyed when all I wanted was emotional support but everyone around me kept trying to problem solve, but I had no clue how to articulate that. I like alexandra 's suggestion of asking her what type of support she is looking for from you. The other thing I see here, and maybe this is projection on my part, but when people disregard our well meaning help it can feel bad. Especially if we don't agree with how they are choosing to do things. A close friend of mine is doing a dangerous diet and I voiced my concerns. I couldn't figure out why I was so annoyed when she didn't even acknowledge my concerns, but I knew continuing to push was going to cause problems. My counselor is having me explore my own childhood wounding around the feeling that she is ignoring my concerns.
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Post by seeking on Jan 10, 2022 15:31:34 GMT
This is an important piece. It sounds like you might have gotten stuck in the drama triangle with her in the past and now you are trying to be healthier about your interactions but she might not have the tools to interact at an adult to adult level. Until I had done enough self work to understand when I was going into the rescuer or victim role, I wasn't able to get out of them. I used to get really annoyed when all I wanted was emotional support but everyone around me kept trying to problem solve, but I had no clue how to articulate that. I like alexandra 's suggestion of asking her what type of support she is looking for from you. * I could probably use a refresher on the drama triangle. So, right - I guess I was the rescuer. Her ex the perpetrator and she the victim. This is very much overlaid with my mom right now. I was in Domestic Violence counseling in 2020 - not that long ago. I still have a narc ex in my life (father of my child) who still pulls narc moves (up until yesterday, his latest). So I'm already "primed" for this. Prior to my mom's accident, I told her to leave my father. They are in their mid 70s. My mom is Catholic and said she "couldn't" - I said I would find a way. Come stay with me. My mother is in a DV situation with my dad, and then he nearly killed her recently in a car accident b/c of his anger issues. I take this shit seriously. So I don't know if I was so much trying to "rescue" to fill a need of mine - though, again, it could be some fantasy of mine/mom stuff. But I felt like a friend recently said - I was yelling "STOP" when my friend (with her kids in the car) was about to like drive into a tree. And it was like she was falling asleep (the dissociation) at the wheel - and while I didn't realize that at the time, I think I got "louder" (not actually but I guess more "intense" according to her) so she wouldn't fall asleep behind the wheel. I honestly do not feel like I have any attachment to outcome. Would I like her to wake up and get herself out of this? Yes. But I've been her friend for a year. And there were other times when she stepped in and said "I have to do things my way." And plenty of times when I said "Want my advice? _______________ but no judgement." And I meant it. This time, I'm not sure what was different. And I'm still not sure where to go from here. She was the one who ended it. more soon have a call now. Thanks for your input here!
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Post by seeking on Jan 10, 2022 17:09:17 GMT
The other thing I see here, and maybe this is projection on my part, but when people disregard our well meaning help it can feel bad. Especially if we don't agree with how they are choosing to do things. A close friend of mine is doing a dangerous diet and I voiced my concerns. I couldn't figure out why I was so annoyed when she didn't even acknowledge my concerns, but I knew continuing to push was going to cause problems. My counselor is having me explore my own childhood wounding around the feeling that she is ignoring my concerns. I have zero attachment to her disregarding it. The only issue that came up here was that she told me I was "intense" and I didn't know what to do with it. That night, she said I was being harsh - so I backed off. We didn't talk for another 10 days, until she wrote and said "We should talk" -- 10 days later. And said, "You were intense." That's not a request/a boundary. I just didn't know what to do with it. I tried talking about it on the phone, but she wasn't open to that. So 10 days passed again, and I wrote her the email and she ended it. I did give her an out. I said it's how I am. I am intense in situations that are intense. And that she claimed I gave her a panic attack (which is her reality) but I said, I don't know that it was me. I think your situation was pretty panic-inducing and would be to most people. That's how I talked to her in the email. I was very clear, very direct, and owned only what I felt was fair and genuine (which is that when she said "this is hard" I kind of went into my own thing about how I did really hard things and she could do this - and apologized if that's not what she needed to hear) but I also said that I've seen this pattern with her over time and that other people reacted to it too (I witnessed them doing it - and they were more judgmental toward her and I was trying to be kind by confronting her - not standing back and just quietly judging her). I think that last part probably didn't go over well. But then I also couched the whole thing in saying that I would be happy moving forward and never talking about her ex or court again. It would make things easier on everyone. And that I didn't want to be in a position of her thinking I was acting as a therapist. So it was a strong/direct email. And it clearly just shut her down.
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Post by seeking on Jan 12, 2022 16:25:49 GMT
I'm considering writing my friend back after her "good luck" email.
I know the truth is - I don't want to lose her friendship.
But I also am watching myself not want to be vulnerable - like I was hoping, by now, she'd come back and say "Maybe I overreacted, etc" (she's gotten no response from me when she sent what appeared to be a reflexive "ending it" email).
I guess what I don't want is to be in survival/trauma mode and making that decision, so I've been taking my time but it is really hard to separate.
The are parts that are anxious/pursuing and just want to fix it so the world feels better to me. Then there are parts that are like, I have certain people I let into my life and I want her in -- but perhaps with more boundaries so this sort of thing doesn't happen again.
I also know that I could be pretty judgmental of her at times. And that doesn't feel good. The only way I was "managing" it was if I could be honest with her.
I'm still not sure enough how much of it to own - and wouldn't mind practicing being a little vulnerable. But my therapist's reaction was pretty strong - and I haven't discussed it with her since (we had other stuff to talk about last night) - so I'm hesitating still...
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Post by alexandra on Jan 12, 2022 18:17:03 GMT
Consider if you want her in, even though you can't meet each other's needs, miscommunicate, and her responses trigger you, because you're stuck in your patterns. Nothing about this friendship is healthy right now. She's a train wreck in her personal life, and you're doing the work to try not to be in yours. But you're used to having to support other people who are having personal and emotional difficulties who do not support you when it comes down to it (that's what you've described several times about several people in your life). Ultimately, the decision is yours, but my opinion is you can find healthier friendships because she's not too much of a friend and definitely not an adult. Sticking with her is just engaging in the dynamics you're used to in your life, which are the same dynamics which have led you right to where you are with her. It's back to that script and the roles and dynamics you create and recreate with the people you're closest with that have come up multiple times. What needs is being the stable, savior one meeting for you? I get that you're lonely with the pandemic making things tougher and it not being so easy to make friends after a certain age, but this just sounds like a sunk cost investment with someone you can't trust, and you're trying to bend every which way to salvage it because that's repeatedly what you've had to do in your life.
Having more boundaries is extremely unlikely to help or change anything. She doesn't want you to have more boundaries and won't react in the way you want her to / are hoping to "make" her do. You're also not showing good boundaries if you can't respect that she directly expressed she wants to end the friendship.
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Post by seeking on Jan 12, 2022 23:00:59 GMT
Consider if you want her in, even though you can't meet each other's needs, miscommunicate, and her responses trigger you, because you're stuck in your patterns. Nothing about this friendship is healthy right now. She's a train wreck in her personal life, and you're doing the work to try not to be in yours. But you're used to having to support other people who are having personal and emotional difficulties who do not support you when it comes down to it (that's what you've described several times about several people in your life). Ultimately, the decision is yours, but my opinion is you can find healthier friendships because she's not too much of a friend and definitely not an adult. Sticking with her is just engaging in the dynamics you're used to in your life, which are the same dynamics which have led you right to where you are with her. It's back to that script and the roles and dynamics you create and recreate with the people you're closest with that have come up multiple times. What needs is being the stable, savior one meeting for you? I get that you're lonely with the pandemic making things tougher and it not being so easy to make friends after a certain age, but this just sounds like a sunk cost investment with someone you can't trust, and you're trying to bend every which way to salvage it because that's repeatedly what you've had to do in your life. Having more boundaries is extremely unlikely to help or change anything. She doesn't want you to have more boundaries and won't react in the way you want her to / are hoping to "make" her do. You're also not showing good boundaries if you can't respect that she directly expressed she wants to end the friendship. Totally appreciate this. As I'm reading, a lot is opening up for me. Will think on it and post more soon and really appreciate you coming in strongly to wake up my head! Thanks, Alexandra.
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Post by seeking on Jan 14, 2022 13:20:43 GMT
I've reflected more on this and still think I have done something wrong. I'm not sure what. But it feels that way.
Like I was "harsh" that day - I think because I was activated/triggered and I was intense. I was willing to just let it all go but her calling me a week and a half later to tell me I was intense that day was weird. Like it wasn't a request/boundary - it was like I was supposed to do what? feel bad? So that's when I started defending myself and sort of making it about her.
She handled things how she handled things - she is a train wreck, she had the right to dissociate, and do whatever it is she was going to do. I just had a strong opinion on it because I have a strong opinion on the whole topic and I was trying to show her other people's reactions (kind of like - other people are finding your husband alarming - don't you see?)
In the email I wrote her I spelled things out very clearly - which may not have been very relational.
I said - both on the phone and in email - which is I think the part that upset her - that I've seen this pattern before - that people around her are alarmed, and she isn't and that they talk behind her back, where I'm just coming to her with it and I felt I was being kind and doing it out of love (which is true) - I am not gossiping behind her back. But maybe it came across like "I'm doing you a favor by being your friend." or something - not at all how I meant it - more like trying to wake her up that it's not just ME who is "intense"
But that probably didn't go over well.
She thanked me for my support and said it won't work as friends.
That's where she left it.
So I guess I'm still not wrapping my mind around something happened to me or I was treated badly in any way.
I'm aware she's a train wreck, but she still had good qualities as a friend that I think I valued -
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Post by seeking on Jan 14, 2022 13:21:50 GMT
BTW, alexandra - someone else recently talked about sunk cost investment with regard to a relationship situation - second time I hear it this week (not my relationship situation) but just curious what that means.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 14, 2022 17:53:36 GMT
It's usually a money term, but can be applied to anything that requires an investment of money, time, effort, etc.
Lol wow, I just learned "sunk cost fallacy" is now in the oxford dictionary! Didn't expect a phrase to get into the dictionary, but here it is:
sunk-cost fallacy
noun
the phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 14, 2022 18:14:32 GMT
BTW, alexandra - someone else recently talked about sunk cost investment with regard to a relationship situation - second time I hear it this week (not my relationship situation) but just curious what that means. As a project manager we use sunk cost to indicate the money spent on a project that is cancelled.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 14, 2022 22:23:15 GMT
I've reflected more on this and still think I have done something wrong. I'm not sure what. But it feels that way. I'm going back to what I said before. One disagreement doesn't tank a healthy friendship. It can easily tank a friendship between insecures because any sign of disagreement or confrontation is scary, since they don't have healthy tools to resolve conflict or positive experiences in overcoming conflict with loved ones in the past. If she can't forgive you for not responding how she most desired one time (which isn't actually you doing anything wrong...), then that in itself is the problem. You're adding to the problem by beating yourself up. While I still don't think you did anything wrong, even if you did, ruminating over it and searching and searching for the way to reconnect with her isn't having respect or grace for yourself. You are obviously disappointed that the friendship didn't work out, but you'll need to find a way to accept that she requested ending it instead of working through the issue -- which signals problems, and that you can't rely on her when the going gets tough. Which means it wasn't going to work out sooner or later, and that's okay. It doesn't mean you need to turn yourself inside out figuring out what you did wrong, there just wasn't good compatibility between your communication styles... plus there are inherent trust issues because she doesn't sound like she fully trusts others and can't fully be trusted herself. It's not the recipe for an enduring friendship, and that's not all on you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 23:11:25 GMT
I've reflected more on this and still think I have done something wrong. I'm not sure what. But it feels that way. I'm going back to what I said before. One disagreement doesn't tank a healthy friendship. It can easily tank a friendship between insecures because any sign of disagreement or confrontation is scary, since they don't have healthy tools to resolve conflict or positive experiences in overcoming conflict with loved ones in the past. If she can't forgive you for not responding how she most desired one time (which isn't actually you doing anything wrong...), then that in itself is the problem. You're adding to the problem by beating yourself up. While I still don't think you did anything wrong, even if you did, ruminating over it and searching and searching for the way to reconnect with her isn't having respect or grace for yourself. You are obviously disappointed that the friendship didn't work out, but you'll need to find a way to accept that she requested ending it instead of working through the issue -- which signals problems, and that you can't rely on her when the going gets tough. Which means it wasn't going to work out sooner or later, and that's okay. It doesn't mean you need to turn yourself inside out figuring out what you did wrong, there just wasn't good compatibility between your communication styles... plus there are inherent trust issues because she doesn't sound like she fully trusts others and can't fully be trusted herself. It's not the recipe for an enduring friendship, and that's not all on you. This! 🧡
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Post by seeking on Jan 15, 2022 0:04:49 GMT
Well I trust you guys. And Alexandra, what you said makes a lot of sense.
I just think I was harsh. Like who says "I've seen this pattern before with you." It's really judgmental. I really wouldn't have said that to another friend. But I guess the relationship had a sister-like quality (and my relationship with my sister truly sucks). But I'm fine if she was the unhealthy one or we were unhealthy together. (Meaning, I'm fine to let go of the relationship, if that's the case).
I'm really just left feeling like she was in her right and *I'm* the unhealthy one here or the one who was sort of inappropriate/out of bounds.
Not sure what that's about, but I'm able to let it go. I think I just wanted resolution on if there is a lingering something I did wrong, I would own it. It's just been pretty confusing. But I've also learned some good stuff through this -
Thanks so much for all this input and support. It really helped me quite a lot during a rocky couple of weeks here.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 15, 2022 0:35:20 GMT
How about this. If you want to introspect about something, you can look more into good communication and your own communication style. Do you feel you were properly expressing yourself, or were you talking in circles and dragging things out because you didn't know how to say what you wanted / needed? (And she didn't know how to receive it or do what you needed anyway?) And, were you staying on point or were you lashing out? People can always improve their own communication ability, and that may be a healthier way of channeling your rumination. If you hold things in until you're so frustrated that you lash out and make personal attacks, that's something you can do better in the future. Not with her, but it will help with your conflict resolution and communication skills with anyone else.
I don't think you being "intense" but honest was the problem here, though. She didn't want to hear or deal with what you had to say. If she was able to deal with her issues, her life wouldn't be a mess. That's why I'm more inclined to say you didn't do anything wrong, and find other people who appreciate and accept you as you are, intensity and all. But since I wasn't there, if you really truly were unfair and lashing out (as opposed to just being honest with someone who didn't want to hear it), then that's something you can work on going forward.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 15, 2022 1:41:24 GMT
Well I trust you guys. And Alexandra, what you said makes a lot of sense. I just think I was harsh. Like who says "I've seen this pattern before with you." It's really judgmental. I really wouldn't have said that to another friend. But I guess the relationship had a sister-like quality (and my relationship with my sister truly sucks). But I'm fine if she was the unhealthy one or we were unhealthy together. (Meaning, I'm fine to let go of the relationship, if that's the case). I'm really just left feeling like she was in her right and *I'm* the unhealthy one here or the one who was sort of inappropriate/out of bounds. Not sure what that's about, but I'm able to let it go. I think I just wanted resolution on if there is a lingering something I did wrong, I would own it. It's just been pretty confusing. But I've also learned some good stuff through this - Thanks so much for all this input and support. It really helped me quite a lot during a rocky couple of weeks here. I get it….the feeling of having done something wrong and re evaluating a situation….however, as alexandra pointed out….I believe the true issue is how negative towards yourself even though you were expressing a legitimate concern. True friendships should not be that fragile…true friendships forgive, clarify and continue forward. It was only once I was able to be my own best advocate that I was able to let go of momentary slip ups. I think you are on the right course and we are all here for you.
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