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Post by alexandra on Dec 28, 2021 21:43:27 GMT
I do anecdotally know avoidants IRL who did get shaken by breakups into working on their on issues. But it was never in this sort of standard anxious/avoidant dance situation. It was always REALLY traumatic stuff with a partner who ended up being all out emotionally abusive. I don't really know of avoidants who got swayed by the anxious person trying really hard and the avoidant person wanting more space-style breakup, where everyone involved was a reasonably kind person and trying their best but the attachment style conflicts were too much to work. I've seen those situations make the avoidant partner think but not drive change. None of my avoidant ex partners changed based on our breakups that were like that and left me devastated. Remember that change tends to come from it being truly more painful to stay the same and not change.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 21:53:50 GMT
I do anecdotally know avoidants IRL who did get shaken by breakups into working on their on issues. But it was never in this sort of standard anxious/avoidant dance situation. It was always REALLY traumatic stuff with a partner who ended up being all out emotionally abusive. I don't really know of avoidants who got swayed by the anxious person trying really hard and the avoidant person wanting more space-style breakup, where everyone involved was a reasonably kind person and trying their best but the attachment style conflicts were too much to work. I've seen those situations make the avoidant partner think but not drive change. None of my avoidant ex partners changed based on our breakups that were like that and left me devastated. Remember that change tends to come from it being truly more painful to stay the same and not change. I agree. In fact it was an emotionally abusive partner that opened my eyes to the need to "wake up". I did not grieve him, I grieved what my kids went through more than anything. The point really is- it's the trauma that comes with staying asleep that gets most of us, from what I've seen. More than a breakup. Something that really took a chunk out of you, is what opens eyes.
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Post by fijiwater on Dec 29, 2021 10:57:19 GMT
alexandra you're right, it really is a trap. I know it is as well but I can't get it out of my head, particularly as I feel in limbo where I am waiting to move into my own house so I am surrounded by the reminders of the relationship. 'Pulling teeth' is such an accurate way to describe the communication! I was absolutely more secure when we first met, and I was so patient and listened to what he said, and I do believe he tried too. But then I leant into anxious traits and he leant into avoidant traits even more so. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, and I expect that exact same result would pan out for me if it ever came to it. You're absolutely right that I'm focusing on imagined potential and not what's really in front of me. I don't know how to stop though!
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Post by fijiwater on Dec 29, 2021 11:01:48 GMT
@introvert yes I agree, it's a total waste of time to try to compensate for an avoidant by trying super hard. This is absolutely what I did. I think the secure/avoidant pattern is also doomed, unless the avoidant is aware of and wants to explore their avoidant tendencies. And as you say, this often can't happen unless something soul shaking happens. This is why, when people ask me "why didn't he try harder for you?", I know it wouldn't and shouldn't be as a result of another person (in a romantic setting).
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Post by fijiwater on Dec 29, 2021 11:07:29 GMT
Remember that change tends to come from it being truly more painful to stay the same and not change. alexandra it's really interesting and helpful to hear other experiences and viewpoints. Thinking but not driving change seems fitting for my situation.
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Post by fijiwater on Dec 29, 2021 11:27:13 GMT
I think today I just feel shaken up by it all. I posted on a different forum and was immediately told "there's another woman!". Whilst this has crossed my mind, I don't think it is true. He struggled with being intimate with one person, so how would he on earth get that comfortable with another. My gut feeling is he thinks that a house, car, pets and money will equate to what he wants, which is a marriage and family. But he doesn't know/understand the intricacies that a relationship with another person involves. It's strange as he drove majority of things in the relationship, and booked holidays and asked me to move in with him. But when those things happened, he didn't seem to be fully present to enjoy them or enjoy being with me. He looked to the future constantly, and couldn't enjoy what was in front of him - it was always like "when XYZ happens, then I'll be happy." I don't think I could have done any more, and it ultimately left me feeling confused and at a loss about what to do. I do wonder what it will take for him to look inside and explore those avoidant tendencies. In my anxious moments I think it'll be another woman, but in my more lucid moments I simply don't see how that would be the case. But to have a happy and fulfilling relationship surely you have to understand yourself and correct those unhelpful approaches/inability to be comfortable with intimacy.
I really appreciate all of your replies - thank you so much for sharing your views. It really helps, and makes me feel less alone. It's just such a galling feeling to know that it was all there in front of us, but it didn't work. And it's hard to drown out the noise of people saying there's another woman, that he should have changed for me, that it's all such a waste, that I could have done more etc. I know him as well as I could, and I feel fairly confident that the issue surrounds fear of intimacy, fear of difficult conversations, inability to share difficult feelings with another person and wanting to deal with things alone rather than within a partnership.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2021 12:53:38 GMT
As hard as it is, try to stop analyzing him. You have described an emotionally unavailable man here. And, he was emotionally unavailable from the start. You wrote that you tried many ways and many times to get him to open up, to no avail. From the beginning you thought (and were confident) he would change (open up, become emotionally available). He put down all the markers of a relationship except emotional availability. There is no security without emotional availability and the intimate connection (trust, vulnerability, openness).
The question is, why did you try so hard (and so codependently) with an unavailable man? That's the question you need to answer. You speak of anxious and avoidant "tendencies" and I think you minimize and deny the drivers of this situation - your anxiety and his avoidance. It's more than tendencies that create an ending like this. It's insecure attachment, codependency, unavailable relating. It didn't develop out of security, it was there from the beginning, he was closed off and you mistakenly thought you could change that. That is the foundation of an insecure relationship. Everything you built was built on that foundation and it crumbled.
It's sobering to face the fallout of our own insecure approach to relationships, but that's what we have to do because looking for answers in the ex is fruitless.
I think you must also have some heavy grief to process, do you have a therapist to work through all of this with?
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Post by fijiwater on Dec 29, 2021 13:22:44 GMT
As hard as it is, try to stop analyzing him. You have described an emotionally unavailable man here. And, he was emotionally unavailable from the start. You wrote that you tried many ways and many times to get him to open up, to no avail. From the beginning you thought (and were confident) he would change (open up, become emotionally available). He put down all the markers of a relationship except emotional availability. There is no security without emotional availability and the intimate connection (trust, vulnerability, openness). The question is, why did you try so hard (and so codependently) with an unavailable man? That's the question you need to answer. You speak of anxious and avoidant "tendencies" and I think you minimize and deny the drivers of this situation - your anxiety and his avoidance. It's more than tendencies that create an ending like this. It's insecure attachment, codependency, unavailable relating. It didn't develop out of security, it was there from the beginning, he was closed off and you mistakenly thought you could change that. That is the foundation of an insecure relationship. Everything you built was built on that foundation and it crumbled. It's sobering to face the fallout of our own insecure approach to relationships, but that's what we have to do because looking for answers in the ex is fruitless. I think you must also have some heavy grief to process, do you have a therapist to work through all of this with? Thank you so much - you are absolutely right. I think the over analysis is giving me excuse not to face my full loss, and to face my insecure attachment style (you're dead right that I'm trying to minimise this when I should face up to it). Particularly as the reason I tried so hard within the relationship was because I felt he would give me security (if that doesn't make me face up to my insecure attachment then I don't know what else will!!).
I do have a therapist who I'm seeing again next week - from our first few sessions it quickly became apparent that we need to explore my fears of security, how I can create security within myself, why I have chosen partners who I perceive as needing to be 'saved'/supported through their internal trauma, and how I can become secure.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2021 13:34:03 GMT
As hard as it is, try to stop analyzing him. You have described an emotionally unavailable man here. And, he was emotionally unavailable from the start. You wrote that you tried many ways and many times to get him to open up, to no avail. From the beginning you thought (and were confident) he would change (open up, become emotionally available). He put down all the markers of a relationship except emotional availability. There is no security without emotional availability and the intimate connection (trust, vulnerability, openness). The question is, why did you try so hard (and so codependently) with an unavailable man? That's the question you need to answer. You speak of anxious and avoidant "tendencies" and I think you minimize and deny the drivers of this situation - your anxiety and his avoidance. It's more than tendencies that create an ending like this. It's insecure attachment, codependency, unavailable relating. It didn't develop out of security, it was there from the beginning, he was closed off and you mistakenly thought you could change that. That is the foundation of an insecure relationship. Everything you built was built on that foundation and it crumbled. It's sobering to face the fallout of our own insecure approach to relationships, but that's what we have to do because looking for answers in the ex is fruitless. I think you must also have some heavy grief to process, do you have a therapist to work through all of this with? Thank you so much - you are absolutely right. I think the over analysis is giving me excuse not to face my full loss, and to face my insecure attachment style (you're dead right that I'm trying to minimise this when I should face up to it). Particularly as the reason I tried so hard within the relationship was because I felt he would give me security (if that doesn't make me face up to my insecure attachment then I don't know what else will!!).
I do have a therapist who I'm seeing again next week - from our first few sessions it quickly became apparent that we need to explore my fears of security, how I can create security within myself, why I have chosen partners who I perceive as needing to be 'saved'/supported through their internal trauma, and how I can become secure. You're on the right track. We find what we are ready for... you found an emotionally unavailable man because you are also emotionally available. The best people for us to repeat our insecure patterns with is other insecure people. It's great that you recognize the pattern in yourself, and that's where you will need to keep your focus. Anxious tend to believe that they are available... but they are in their own insecure relating that mimics but isn't actually ready and capable of intimacy and secure relating- there is too much of their own narrative to make room for someone else to be seen. It's a lot of fantasy and then working to make reality out of that fantasy. And then ending up surprised when reality crashes through. It's painful on both sides but the only side you can take care of is your own. I'm glad you have a therapist. Keeping her advice in mind as you write here might help you stay accountable to your own process instead of veering off into the ditch focusing on him. Take good care of yourself too, turn that energy around into making sure you do what you need to do to be healthy in your body and your emotions. You're probably overdue for some TLC so give that to yourself.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 29, 2021 15:25:51 GMT
As hard as it is, try to stop analyzing him. You have described an emotionally unavailable man here. And, he was emotionally unavailable from the start. You wrote that you tried many ways and many times to get him to open up, to no avail. From the beginning you thought (and were confident) he would change (open up, become emotionally available). He put down all the markers of a relationship except emotional availability. There is no security without emotional availability and the intimate connection (trust, vulnerability, openness). The question is, why did you try so hard (and so codependently) with an unavailable man? That's the question you need to answer. You speak of anxious and avoidant "tendencies" and I think you minimize and deny the drivers of this situation - your anxiety and his avoidance. It's more than tendencies that create an ending like this. It's insecure attachment, codependency, unavailable relating. It didn't develop out of security, it was there from the beginning, he was closed off and you mistakenly thought you could change that. That is the foundation of an insecure relationship. Everything you built was built on that foundation and it crumbled. It's sobering to face the fallout of our own insecure approach to relationships, but that's what we have to do because looking for answers in the ex is fruitless. I think you must also have some heavy grief to process, do you have a therapist to work through all of this with? Thank you so much - you are absolutely right. I think the over analysis is giving me excuse not to face my full loss, and to face my insecure attachment style (you're dead right that I'm trying to minimise this when I should face up to it). Particularly as the reason I tried so hard within the relationship was because I felt he would give me security (if that doesn't make me face up to my insecure attachment then I don't know what else will!!).
I do have a therapist who I'm seeing again next week - from our first few sessions it quickly became apparent that we need to explore my fears of security, how I can create security within myself, why I have chosen partners who I perceive as needing to be 'saved'/supported through their internal trauma, and how I can become secure. I completely understand about hoping the guy you dated would give you security. I had the same hope with the guy I dated….and at times, I felt he provided it…but at others (and frankly more often) I was searching to get back to that feeling of security. My therapist used to remind me on a regular basis that the desire for security was a valid need, but that the person I thought was going to provide that was not a good choice. In that desire, I had created a fantasy version of B that I clung to….disregarding all of the ways I felt insecure with him. She suggested I mourn the loss of the need and not B because it truly wasn’t him that I felt I had lost as part of the break up…but a fantasy relationship based on that need being met. The more I made it about addressing the need versus about losing him…the more I was able to gain distance from the fantasy.
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Post by fijiwater on Dec 29, 2021 15:28:19 GMT
@introvert ha, absolutely right about a lot of fantasy and then working to make reality out of that fantasy. So much hard work which ultimately would not lead to fruition! My therapist has already gently called me up on staying accountable to my own process rather than focusing on him. She's a good therapist as she challenges me in this way, much like this forum is helpful in this way too. I feel like there is a bigger picture here that I'm not quite grasping yet though - that I am emotionally unavailable myself - I guess it's learning what being emotionally available means. I have let self care slip, in terms of not eating well or taking care of myself through exercise. I've bought the ingredients for nourishing meals, but the energy of making anything feels too great. I just need to wade through and forward.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2021 16:43:09 GMT
Maybe you could cook with a friend!
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Post by alexandra on Dec 29, 2021 21:15:40 GMT
One of the reasons I post here often is because internet dating advice is generally terrible if people giving it aren't familiar with attachment styles. And most aren't. Then everything is about exactly what you said: they are seeing someone else, they're just not that into you, if they really loved you they'd change. No no no. While there are some people of poor character out there who are cheaters and jerks, most "confusing" partners are simply emotionally unavailable, as @introvert said, and that comes with a huge range of still-in-use dysfunctional defense mechanisms that applied to whatever they grew up with but does not apply to healthy adult relationships. On both ends, both the avoidant and anxious, this isn't about the other person beyond you have chosen someone unavailable. And if there's a pattern of doing that in your relationship history, it's for a reason (and the reason is related to whatever caused your insecure attachment style to develop to begin with). I'm sure his history of family and dating is full of red flags, and I'm sure yours is too. Avoidance is driven by fear of engulfment and anxious is driven by fear of abandonment. Both generally based in how you experienced childhood and needed to adapt to stay attached to people who couldn't fully meet your needs, since kids can't survive on their own and do need older people around for food and shelter. I continue to post to help people get to the right information instead of the unhelpful framing of, be suspicious and vigilant there's another woman! Or whatever, which is generally not the issue or the solution. The outcome is still the same, though. You broke up because of emotional unavailability issues, and the way out is to focus on yourself and your own fears, to heal and process your own past. That sets you up to start earning security and from there eventually choosing better partners. That's what working with a therapist will help you with. You do need time to mourn your loss, but ruminating is an anxious way to avoid processing, as in general there tends to be a fear that if you stop dwelling it will sever the connection "for real" (though the connection is already severed for real). But again, this goes back to whatever has happened in your experience that primed you to find ways to stay attached to people who don't meet your needs consistently and may even act unforgivably. Anxious internalize bad behavior against them as somehow their fault, partially because they see others as better and more trustworthy than self, and partially because if it's truly not your fault then it means accepting you have no control over another person and there's nothing you can do to get the relationship you believe you want from this person. And then how do you ever get your needs met??? However, the trick is, it's the relationship and connection to yourself that is the one truly abandoned and that you need to work on to overcome the pain you're feeling. It isn't a fast process but it's very worth it. Don't feel sorry for me that things didn't work out. He was a terrible partner for me, and the pandemic has just magnified the value chasm between us. Wasting my time for such a big portion of my dating life (being AP) was annoying to say the least but it led to me earning secure and opening up, and I now have an absolutely amazing partner. Not idealized amazing, actually amazing: very consistent, mature, dependable, kind, actually enthusiastically building a life together with me. Here's some food for thought in regards to understanding attachment triggering: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2372/overcoupling-stress-response
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2021 23:55:36 GMT
Yes please keep posting here alexandra we need you 😂
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Post by fijiwater on Dec 30, 2021 11:36:45 GMT
Thank you so much - you are absolutely right. I think the over analysis is giving me excuse not to face my full loss, and to face my insecure attachment style (you're dead right that I'm trying to minimise this when I should face up to it). Particularly as the reason I tried so hard within the relationship was because I felt he would give me security (if that doesn't make me face up to my insecure attachment then I don't know what else will!!).
I do have a therapist who I'm seeing again next week - from our first few sessions it quickly became apparent that we need to explore my fears of security, how I can create security within myself, why I have chosen partners who I perceive as needing to be 'saved'/supported through their internal trauma, and how I can become secure. I completely understand about hoping the guy you dated would give you security. I had the same hope with the guy I dated….and at times, I felt he provided it…but at others (and frankly more often) I was searching to get back to that feeling of security. My therapist used to remind me on a regular basis that the desire for security was a valid need, but that the person I thought was going to provide that was not a good choice. In that desire, I had created a fantasy version of B that I clung to….disregarding all of the ways I felt insecure with him. She suggested I mourn the loss of the need and not B because it truly wasn’t him that I felt I had lost as part of the break up…but a fantasy relationship based on that need being met. The more I made it about addressing the need versus about losing him…the more I was able to gain distance from the fantasy. tnr9 It's so tough isn't it  That makes sense to mourn the loss of that need rather than the person. Particularly as we can cultivate a sense of security within ourselves. The security I felt within the relationship was financial, but really, I can take care of myself that way. And it wasn't shared in a partnership way really. I do need to gain distance from the fantasy too I think.
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