|
Post by fijiwater on Dec 30, 2021 12:02:11 GMT
One of the reasons I post here often is because internet dating advice is generally terrible if people giving it aren't familiar with attachment styles. And most aren't. Then everything is about exactly what you said: they are seeing someone else, they're just not that into you, if they really loved you they'd change. No no no. While there are some people of poor character out there who are cheaters and jerks, most "confusing" partners are simply emotionally unavailable, as @introvert said, and that comes with a huge range of still-in-use dysfunctional defense mechanisms that applied to whatever they grew up with but does not apply to healthy adult relationships. On both ends, both the avoidant and anxious, this isn't about the other person beyond you have chosen someone unavailable. And if there's a pattern of doing that in your relationship history, it's for a reason (and the reason is related to whatever caused your insecure attachment style to develop to begin with). I'm sure his history of family and dating is full of red flags, and I'm sure yours is too. Avoidance is driven by fear of engulfment and anxious is driven by fear of abandonment. Both generally based in how you experienced childhood and needed to adapt to stay attached to people who couldn't fully meet your needs, since kids can't survive on their own and do need older people around for food and shelter. I continue to post to help people get to the right information instead of the unhelpful framing of, be suspicious and vigilant there's another woman! Or whatever, which is generally not the issue or the solution. The outcome is still the same, though. You broke up because of emotional unavailability issues, and the way out is to focus on yourself and your own fears, to heal and process your own past. That sets you up to start earning security and from there eventually choosing better partners. That's what working with a therapist will help you with. You do need time to mourn your loss, but ruminating is an anxious way to avoid processing, as in general there tends to be a fear that if you stop dwelling it will sever the connection "for real" (though the connection is already severed for real). But again, this goes back to whatever has happened in your experience that primed you to find ways to stay attached to people who don't meet your needs consistently and may even act unforgivably. Anxious internalize bad behavior against them as somehow their fault, partially because they see others as better and more trustworthy than self, and partially because if it's truly not your fault then it means accepting you have no control over another person and there's nothing you can do to get the relationship you believe you want from this person. And then how do you ever get your needs met??? However, the trick is, it's the relationship and connection to yourself that is the one truly abandoned and that you need to work on to overcome the pain you're feeling. It isn't a fast process but it's very worth it. Don't feel sorry for me that things didn't work out. He was a terrible partner for me, and the pandemic has just magnified the value chasm between us. Wasting my time for such a big portion of my dating life (being AP) was annoying to say the least but it led to me earning secure and opening up, and I now have an absolutely amazing partner. Not idealized amazing, actually amazing: very consistent, mature, dependable, kind, actually enthusiastically building a life together with me. Here's some food for thought in regards to understanding attachment triggering: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2372/overcoupling-stress-responseYes, thank you so much for your posts This is all incredibly helpful.
|
|
|
Post by fijiwater on Dec 30, 2021 12:24:38 GMT
I am looking forward to my own healing journey, and focusing on myself rather than on him, and on rumination. Last night I had a good cry, really felt like I was grieving. Today I don't feel well, I feel anxious and my stomach hurts but I know I need to take care of myself.
Whilst the feelings are so painful, and I feel like I can't breathe from the sadness and loss sometimes, I am glad I have access to my emotions and can learn how to manage them and move into a healthier and more secure way of living with myself.
I did ask him a while back why he kept in touch with me and his response was "I hadn't really thought about it". Which was common, as he would often say "I don't know what to say" or "I hadn't ever thought about it" when asked about emotions, or during a discussion about someone else's behaviour. He could give very good practical advice, and provided financial and logistical support. And whilst it seems like over analysis, I just think how sad to not be in touch with your feelings and to not have those connections with memories, with another person, and to experience the highs and lows of life and a relationship. He always seemed neutral - never happy or sad, occasionally angry - which he passed off as being 'mild mannered'. And that's where I (wrongly) took the responsibility on to myself, as a challenge to help him feel those emotions because I wanted him to enjoy life and the relationship. But that is an insecure approach and a failure from the start and it's helpful for me to acknowledge this and my insecure actions.
I feel at a loss though, and I'm looking forward to exploring my insecurities further with my therapist, and through the forum and the helpful reading and insights offered by others.
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Dec 30, 2021 12:57:03 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 15:44:47 GMT
I am looking forward to my own healing journey, and focusing on myself rather than on him, and on rumination. Last night I had a good cry, really felt like I was grieving. Today I don't feel well, I feel anxious and my stomach hurts but I know I need to take care of myself. Whilst the feelings are so painful, and I feel like I can't breathe from the sadness and loss sometimes, I am glad I have access to my emotions and can learn how to manage them and move into a healthier and more secure way of living with myself. I did ask him a while back why he kept in touch with me and his response was "I hadn't really thought about it". Which was common, as he would often say "I don't know what to say" or "I hadn't ever thought about it" when asked about emotions, or during a discussion about someone else's behaviour. He could give very good practical advice, and provided financial and logistical support. And whilst it seems like over analysis, I just think how sad to not be in touch with your feelings and to not have those connections with memories, with another person, and to experience the highs and lows of life and a relationship. He always seemed neutral - never happy or sad, occasionally angry - which he passed off as being 'mild mannered'. And that's where I (wrongly) took the responsibility on to myself, as a challenge to help him feel those emotions because I wanted him to enjoy life and the relationship. But that is an insecure approach and a failure from the start and it's helpful for me to acknowledge this and my insecure actions. I feel at a loss though, and I'm looking forward to exploring my insecurities further with my therapist, and through the forum and the helpful reading and insights offered by others. I hesitate to mention his side of things simply because this isn't about him, it's about you (non/shaming, just referencing your inner work to identify your own issues). And, I don't want to give you something to wish you had done differently because that's an anxious trap too, if you see a way you triggered him, you might ruminate about that. This is actually a way to try to show you why the anxious + DA dynamic just can't can't can't work. Your biggest drive and desire, to fix him, heal him, give him access to what you imagine he's missing, is a huge trigger for a DA. It's the opposite of Live and Let Live (a favorite credo) and it's very invasive. It also can be viewed as active rejection and judgment (you can't accept that I'm fine, you are trying to mind read me, I am different from you and your emotional expression is something I don't really get, do you see me bothering you about it? and what he said at the end.."I can never be what you want me to be.") For him, it's like for four years you imagined he needs gloves, and that he just didn't realize it. He is a grown man and has been living without gloves all his life, and he enjoys his life, he feels he's doing pretty dang good. And yet here you are, the constant subtle hinting... where are your gloves dear? You must be wanting some gloves. Here are my gloves, have you ever had a pair of gloves? Let's see if we can get you some gloves." Over time, it would become exhausting for both of you, exasperating. I don't have the experience as a DA of someone probing for my feelings (I've had partners be invasive in other ways)... but I do know what it's like to feel that someone wants to actively impose their way of life, values, and world view on me. I've been TOLD what I think and feel when I had no words to defend myself, that was terrible and I felt totally run over, smashed. It's pretty unpleasant and feels like emotional/psychological assault and control . It's also damn insulting when someone who doesn't have it all together(we see things you don't think we see!) thinks they need to show me a thing or two about myself. What about all the ways he showed his intention and care? That's just not enough. All the help, practical advice, showing up for you in ways that he could, they just can never be enough for an anxious person. It's a defeating place to be, for him and for you. So, again- I'm not beating you up but I'm showing you the other side of the controlling, fixing behaviors. That is not secure love, it's the blind trying to lead the blind. There is no way and I mean no way that a partner probing me could have led to my awakening. It takes someone who wants nothing from me, who has no agenda, who isn't dysfunctionally dancing with me, to assist in that journey. It's a low volume kind of life, the DA inner world is private, and somewhat enigmatic to even us. But it's not a total wasteland like someone might imagine, it's our own inner world where we are safe and content for the most part. It's home! We didn't know being in a relationship would suddenly render that invalid. That's what it feels like. Our whole inner world is invaded and scrutinized and there goes the hope that we can be accepted and respected for who we are. 'Why did you get together with me if you didn't accept me?' You can't judge someone else's insides to be inadequate- that's essentially what you're doing. You're operating through YOUR lens, your trance. Im not saying being a DA is the prime way to be, but it's a deeply personal journey to heal from that and no codependent partner can be safe as a travel partner. The same is true in reverse. An avoidant cannot help heal you. Cannot give you what you think you need, let alone what you actually need. Heres a clipping from the thread that describes healing DA attachment. Again, not sharing to give you ideas about what you could have, should have done- because the anxious/avoidant insecure trap is a big no go. It's just a perspective that I hope shows you that you two are just bad for each other, as two insecurely attached people incapable of being 'safe' for each other.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 16:07:22 GMT
Also alexandra , want to congratulate you on finding a great love. You've worked really hard with your emotional pain and it continues to inspire me in my own process. I'm in a good place too but have hit some tough spots- your presence here is part of what keeps me sharing those times and asking for support here. You're a pillar of the community so to speak- so thank you for your generous offering of wisdom to people of all insecure styles.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 16:30:07 GMT
fijiwater I am guessing that alexandra or someone else that's come through anxious attachment consciously could describe how you're projecting in your fix it missions... seeing the DA's inner journey as your assignment, neglecting your own lost inner child while searching for his, etc. I can't speak to the specifics of the anxious healing journey but we all tend to project things onto others when we are in an insecure trance. And we choose partners who mirror our own issues with ourselves. For me, I chose men who mirrored my own blind, destructive attitudes toward myself. It's all self protection and guarding against what feels unbearable. I covered vulnerable emotions with emotional armor, denying the softer feelings and replacing them with indifference (sometimes chosen sometimes not, it's automatic to turn the volume down on pain. Numbing and minimizing is as a way to protect my inner fear and vulnerability to loss. Subconscious maneuvers and actual physiological interference creates that emotional packing foam around the heart of an avoidant, we aren't robots we are just natural hiders. Distance is maintained in the presence of others because that's what we know how to do.) The men I've been with have denied my vulnerable emotions by mislabeling them, denying their existence, invalidating them, treating me as if I am a monster instead of a person.
|
|
|
Post by fijiwater on Dec 30, 2021 16:31:43 GMT
<abbr data-timestamp="1640879087000" title="Dec 30, 2021 15:44:47 GMT" class="o-timestamp time">Dec 30, 2021 15:44:47 GMT</abbr> introvert saidI hesitate to mention his side of things simply because this isn't about him, it's about you (non/shaming, just referencing your inner work to identify your own issues). And, I don't want to give you something to wish you had done differently because that's an anxious trap too, if you see a way you triggered him, you might ruminate about that. This is actually a way to try to show you why the anxious + DA dynamic just can't can't can't work. Your biggest drive and desire, to fix him, heal him, give him access to what you imagine he's missing, is a huge trigger for a DA. It's the opposite of Live and Let Live (a favorite credo) and it's very invasive. It also can be viewed as active rejection and judgment (you can't accept that I'm fine, you are trying to mind read me, I am different from you and your emotional expression is something I don't really get, do you see me bothering you about it? and what he said at the end.."I can never be what you want me to be.") For him, it's like for four years you imagined he needs gloves, and that he just didn't realize it. He is a grown man and has been living without gloves all his life, and he enjoys his life, he feels he's doing pretty dang good. And yet here you are, the constant subtle hinting... where are your gloves dear? You must be wanting some gloves. Here are my gloves, have you ever had a pair of gloves? Let's see if we can get you some gloves." Over time, it would become exhausting for both of you, exasperating. I don't have the experience as a DA of someone probing for my feelings (I've had partners be invasive in other ways)... but I do know what it's like to feel that someone wants to actively impose their way of life, values, and world view on me. I've been TOLD what I think and feel when I had no words to defend myself, that was terrible and I felt totally run over, smashed. It's pretty unpleasant and feels like emotional/psychological assault and control . It's also damn insulting when someone who doesn't have it all together(we see things you don't think we see!) thinks they need to show me a thing or two about myself. What about all the ways he showed his intention and care? That's just not enough. All the help, practical advice, showing up for you in ways that he could, they just can never be enough for an anxious person. It's a defeating place to be, for him and for you. So, again- I'm not beating you up but I'm showing you the other side of the controlling, fixing behaviors. That is not secure love, it's the blind trying to lead the blind. There is no way and I mean no way that a partner probing me could have led to my awakening. It takes someone who wants nothing from me, who has no agenda, who isn't dysfunctionally dancing with me, to assist in that journey. It's a low volume kind of life, the DA inner world is private, and somewhat enigmatic to even us. But it's not a total wasteland like someone might imagine, it's our own inner world where we are safe and content for the most part. It's home! We didn't know being in a relationship would suddenly render that invalid. That's what it feels like. Our whole inner world is invaded and scrutinized and there goes the hope that we can be accepted and respected for who we are. 'Why did you get together with me if you didn't accept me?' You can't judge someone else's insides to be inadequate- that's essentially what you're doing. You're operating through YOUR lens, your trance. Im not saying being a DA is the prime way to be, but it's a deeply personal journey to heal from that and no codependent partner can be safe as a travel partner. The same is true in reverse. An avoidant cannot help heal you. Cannot give you what you think you need, let alone what you actually need. Heres a clipping from the thread that describes healing DA attachment. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Again, not sharing to give you ideas about what you could have, should have done- because the anxious/avoidant insecure trap is a big no go. It's just a perspective that I hope shows you that you two are just bad for each other, as two insecurely attached people incapable of being 'safe' for each other. Thank you for your reply and this viewpoint. I must admit I do feel pretty crappy about it all but I do reject the view that I essentially spent 4 years badgering him to feel a certain way. I am realising that I am insecure and this was a poor pairing - but I don't believe that any relationship could solely survive on the practical and logistical ways of showing up - surely all relationships would thrive further with more than this? Would a secure person accept him exactly as he was and therefore be the safe travel partner they needed - without any awareness on the avoidants side? To me it is sad to not feel your emotions and to be unable to express them, but I am not saying that my way of feeling or expressing them is healthy either.
To me this does read that I could have done things differently (anxious trap as you say), and that if I had been secure it would have had a different ending. But I just can't believe that as there was no acknowledgement on his side that he was avoidant. Overall it just makes me feel like a terrible, cajoling, nagging person who should have accepted him exactly as he was?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 16:36:09 GMT
fijiwater I said, I'm not blaming you. I also explained that I am giving a perspective of HIS insecure side. I never said here that how a DA is , is healthy, in fact I've mentioned in this thread the need for awakening, for HEALING. Here you are responding as if I said He's Fine, the problem is You, He'd be great in a relationship with a secure! I didn't say that at all. That's you thinking you just weren't good enough. An avoidant is insecure no matter who they are with and not able to deeply connect the way that is necessary for secure relating. You yourself said that you tried to get him to open up, many times and many ways. I didn't use all the adjectives you used to describe your attempts. That's your voice. I told you my own experience with men who controlled me and you seem to take that as an accusation although I tried to describe a DIFFERENT scenario. You've internalized it in a way I didn't intend. I hesitated to post this fearing it would trigger all your anxious defenses and now I regret it, I'm sorry. But I do ask that you not put words in my mouth so to speak. Take what I said at face value as objectively as you can, and I will bow out from here. I can't be helpful at this juncture.
|
|
|
Post by fijiwater on Dec 30, 2021 16:44:03 GMT
fijiwater I said, I'm not blaming you. I also explained that I am giving a perspective of HIS insecure side. I never said here that how a DA is , is healthy, in fact I've mentioned in this thread the need for awakening. You yourself said that you tried to get him to open up, many times and many ways. I hesitated to post this fearing it would trigger all your anxious defenses and now I regret it, I'm sorry. But I do ask that you not put words in my mouth so to speak. Take what I said at face value as objectively as you can, and I will bow out from here. I can't be helpful at this juncture. Thank you so much for all your insight and input - it honestly is so helpful and I do appreciate it. I apologise for putting words in your mouth. It's hurtful to know the pain I have caused him so I am deflecting in a way that is inappropriate and unfair - so I am sorry for this. I'll re read the post tomorrow or in a few days and will mull it over. It's all very raw for me still, and I've held on as best I can to not chuck all the blame onto me which I have previously done (so many patterns!)
Also I appreciate your approach to things as it challenges my thought patterns - which does cause me to spike BUT it's a positive thing!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 16:46:59 GMT
fijiwater . I'm experiencing the anxious side of you, and it's rough. I am sorry if I've offended but I just don't know how to talk to an anxious person in pain. I'll reflect too- I'm baffled at how my attempt was received. It's all a learning process for all of us.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 17:01:49 GMT
I was trying to RELATE to you as an insecure person who chose men not good for me. I did the same thing and tried to describe that above. I know what it's like to face my own patterns and pain, but I don't think you're able to empathize with my empathy, (?)you're seeing it as an attack. Sorry if how I approached it was confusing.
|
|
|
Post by fijiwater on Dec 30, 2021 17:13:24 GMT
I was trying to RELATE to you as an insecure person who chose men not good for me. I did the same thing and tried to describe that above. I know what it's like to face my own patterns and pain, but I don't think you're able to empathize with my empathy, (?)you're seeing it as an attack. Sorry if how I approached it was confusing. I really do appreciate your input and I am truly sorry for my reaction - it's absolutely lead me to reflect on how I react but that isn't fair as it shouldn't be at the detriment as someone else - I am sorry. 'React' is the key to my response - I react, 'blow up'/dramatise and misconstrue others words to fit my narrative which comes from a place of pain, rather than to consider and respond. It's overwhelming for me so I expect would be even more overwhelming for someone to receive. So hey, it's another thing to add to my list to explore and work on
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 17:19:53 GMT
I was trying to RELATE to you as an insecure person who chose men not good for me. I did the same thing and tried to describe that above. I know what it's like to face my own patterns and pain, but I don't think you're able to empathize with my empathy, (?)you're seeing it as an attack. Sorry if how I approached it was confusing. I really do appreciate your input and I am truly sorry for my reaction - it's absolutely lead me to reflect on how I react but that isn't fair as it shouldn't be at the detriment as someone else - I am sorry. 'React' is the key to my response - I react, 'blow up'/dramatise and misconstrue others words to fit my narrative which comes from a place of pain, rather than to consider and respond. It's overwhelming for me so I expect would be even more overwhelming for someone to receive. So hey, it's another thing to add to my list to explore and work on I can easily forgive this. I am still learning how to express myself, and I know I haven't mastered it or my own reactions to things. The feeling I got from this was sad, not angry. Because I have felt very misunderstood my whole life. So yes, we all have our pain that we are trying to work through. I am glad that you are able to get where I'm coming from but I am truly sorry I triggered you. Another person in your shoes could probably support you better, knowing what to say and how to say it to help you not beat yourself up. I really don't want you to beat yourself up, I just want you to see that the anxious:avoidant trap is very emotionally messy on both sides, that's all. Both sides have to do a lot of healing to show up good for themselves and for the other, it's not all you. He's living half a life and doesn't know it. There will be plenty of pain when/if he realizes that. But the really v important thing here is to take care of YOUR pain and your broken heart. You're grieving. I should have been more sensitive to that, my attempt at helping you was clumsy and I'm sorry for that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 19:38:36 GMT
The reality is, anxious and avoidants don't process breakups in the same way. Avoidants more easily grasp the reality of incompatibility because that's their world view, and they know they are different or unsuitable on some level, most seem to have accepted it and it's part of their narrative. Anxious tend to beat themselves up and so interpret things from that perspective.
I'll keep it in mind when and if I respond to an anxious person's pain. I can see where it wouldn't be immediately helpful, even if the intention is to be helpful.
|
|
|
Post by fijiwater on Jan 17, 2022 12:23:35 GMT
Hey all.
I've been off here for a while, just continuing to process the whole situation.
I feel more frequent moments of clarity, and a hell of a lot of sadness.
It's been interesting to explore that it is typical of an anxious attachment style to want to "fix"/"heal" someone. It's something I feel compelled to do, when it's not been asked of me and the person doesn't need to be "fixed" and it's purely my perception.
We are still sharing the house (although don't see each other) and pets until I move soon. My ex has thrown himself into renovating the spare room, which deeply upset me as this was meant to be a room for our future child. His logic is that the house is very cold and the room needs doing up (which is true).
We have spoken briefly on the phone. He says he isn't happy, and it all feels strange. I said perhaps we didn't understand each other very well. He agreed.
I'm seeing a therapist, I'm journalling, having nice bubble baths and self care. Sometimes feel like I'm free falling and can't find my footing. But it's to be expected.
Sending much gratitude and thank yous to everyone who has commented and offered support and alternative view points. It's incredible food for thought and has been so helpful.
|
|