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Post by seeking on Dec 24, 2021 21:13:09 GMT
I'm noticing this dynamic with folks that has always made me uncomfortable and go to shame. I probably do it myself to other people but when it's done to me, it feels awful. And it's not even like people doing it are that conscious of it, I imagine? Or intending to do it - but I know it comes from an avoidant side of them.
My sister for instance. She is very avoidant. Very bitchy, cranky, not compassionate - like at all. She'll be friends with you and like you if you can keep it light and if you have sort of a picture-perfect instagram feed with lots of little crafts and cookies and talk about things like angels and look really good -that's all she's ever talked about, what gets her attention, basically what she "approves of" - everything else gets sort of a long glance.
I grew up with this in my family - both parents, my sister. And now I'm just sensitive to it.
We have been talking lately, which always inevitably leads to problems - but in this round I'm just kind of noticing more what the sticky part is.
She wasn't feeling well yesterday and while I have had MAJOR TRAUMA happen here and she's never once asked if I was okay, how I am, etc. I decided this morning that it felt good to me to ask how she was - and that it was unusual for either of us to do that. I said "How are you feeling" She texted back "fine."
So that was that.
Later, I said something about my dad being draining. She gets annoyed with him all the time. But if I say it, she suddenly defends him - "He just is who he is." "You can't change people." I wrote back "not looking to change anyone, just may need a long break."
Then, since none of us can be together on Christmas, I suggested we meet on Zoom later - her kids, mine, and our parents -- one of whom is home with pretty bad covid, and the other who is in another room staying away from him. And my sister goes, "I hate zoom."
I guess the word - or energy of - rejection just comes up a lot -- and while I can be outside of it looking in with friends who experience this, it's hard! A friend yesterday was talking about how it makes her go to shame .... it feels like the opposite of acceptance. And while I have seen her give it a TON of power (which kind of reminds me of an anxious type chasing an avoidant), I've largely managed to stop giving it power - but I can still feel a bit de-valued. And I just don't know how to shift it or get away from it.
And you can't ever really address it with the person b/c they'd never in a million years acknowledge it. Sometimes I'm not even sure if they're aware they're doing it.
Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Relate?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 1:06:36 GMT
I get what you're saying.
It seems there's a part of you that wants to connect with your sister and she's not emotionally available. It's triggering, but it's also not something that you can bring up to the person because they are patently unavailable emotionally. It would go over like a lead balloon. They show that over and over, and yet- you still wish to connect.
I'm not sure how to go about fixing this. I guess these is a part of you that might believe that if she gave a damn, it would say something about you, and since she doesn't give a damn, it says something about you?
But people who don't give a damn just don't give a damn. It says nothing good or bad about you.
I'm probably not being helpful, just relating because I felt that way about my older sister. I always felt on the outside of her world. Then I came to learn that I wasn't alone in that, and that she was unreachable yo all, high on a throne with the instagram perfection you describe.
The most helpful thing I ever read about how to understand what was insufficient and wrong with that relationship was actually a buddhist article. It was a description of what buddha says is a good friend and it included:
A real friend tells you his secrets, and your secrets, he keeps.
It was about reciprocity. The relationship totally lacked reciprocity. I shared my insecurities, fears, awkwardness, imperfection with her, and she didn't reciprocate the vulnerability and the trust. She was a silent nodding witness to my pain without sharing any of her own and it felt wrong because she was emotionally unavailable to me.
That's all it took to make it a wrong relationship for me, but that's not all there was. Behind that, there was alcohol dependence, a strict religious influence that was extremely judgmental, and all kinds of ways that she cut herself off from others. (avoidant attachment in me had the same result in how I cut myself off from others...but I'm talking specifically about this dynamic where I was kid sister tagging along after my older sister. ) I think when it's someone in your family, it really gets you where it hurts. I thought I was 'safer' with my sister than I was with my mom but that wasn't true. She was very very much the same and I didn't see it til I was older. Ultimately as I became healthier the relationship died.
Not to say I don't have my issues! That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the rejection from family members has a special kind of sting to it, and often it's very simple but profound missing pieces that we can't put our finger on. But a lack of reciprocity is HUGE.
After I read that list of what makes a true friend I had kind of a standard for myself and for my relationships, what to try to deliver and what to ask in return. The best relationships, you don't have to ask, it's there. What I'm saying is, it's good to have a list of standards to judge your relationships by so your not just stuck judging yourself or wondering what the heck is missing.
You might try looking that up, what makes a good friend according to buddha. It's a great list, a good tool to have. I am not buddhist but I find it to be very universal, there isn't a doctrine tied to it.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 25, 2021 1:48:53 GMT
I'm noticing this dynamic with folks that has always made me uncomfortable and go to shame. I probably do it myself to other people but when it's done to me, it feels awful. And it's not even like people doing it are that conscious of it, I imagine? Or intending to do it - but I know it comes from an avoidant side of them. My sister for instance. She is very avoidant. Very bitchy, cranky, not compassionate - like at all. She'll be friends with you and like you if you can keep it light and if you have sort of a picture-perfect instagram feed with lots of little crafts and cookies and talk about things like angels and look really good -that's all she's ever talked about, what gets her attention, basically what she "approves of" - everything else gets sort of a long glance. I grew up with this in my family - both parents, my sister. And now I'm just sensitive to it. We have been talking lately, which always inevitably leads to problems - but in this round I'm just kind of noticing more what the sticky part is. She wasn't feeling well yesterday and while I have had MAJOR TRAUMA happen here and she's never once asked if I was okay, how I am, etc. I decided this morning that it felt good to me to ask how she was - and that it was unusual for either of us to do that. I said "How are you feeling" She texted back "fine." So that was that. Later, I said something about my dad being draining. She gets annoyed with him all the time. But if I say it, she suddenly defends him - "He just is who he is." "You can't change people." I wrote back "not looking to change anyone, just may need a long break." Then, since none of us can be together on Christmas, I suggested we meet on Zoom later - her kids, mine, and our parents -- one of whom is home with pretty bad covid, and the other who is in another room staying away from him. And my sister goes, "I hate zoom." I guess the word - or energy of - rejection just comes up a lot -- and while I can be outside of it looking in with friends who experience this, it's hard! A friend yesterday was talking about how it makes her go to shame .... it feels like the opposite of acceptance. And while I have seen her give it a TON of power (which kind of reminds me of an anxious type chasing an avoidant), I've largely managed to stop giving it power - but I can still feel a bit de-valued. And I just don't know how to shift it or get away from it. And you can't ever really address it with the person b/c they'd never in a million years acknowledge it. Sometimes I'm not even sure if they're aware they're doing it. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Relate? This happens with my mom and for decades I thought her inability to have a long conversation with me or even spend time just listening to me said something about me. But I have recently realized that it really says nothing about me….but it does give me a clue as to where my mom is at. Ideally, family is the rock that you can go to during tough times…but when there are a bunch of insecurely attached individuals within the family…the dynamic tends to be broken. I agree with @introvert….find some friends who have capacity and can be there for you when you need an emotional boost. I have an amazing friend…she and I are both insecurely attached but we are there to support each other because we both have family dynamics that are not ideal. What I do when my mom is brisk is that I will call one of my friends and speak to him/her instead. I just went through a whole car shopping/buying on my own because I could sense my mom did not have capacity to deal with it. Believe me….I wish things were different….but…..i can only be responsible for my side of the fence…and in that understanding there is a freedom. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 3:27:00 GMT
Also, at one point it hit me... my siblings and I all grew up at the same address. Meaning, we all were messed up by what happened in that house. It's sad, but it's just the way it is and we came through it differently but haven't managed to really heal TOGETHER. We've pretty much gone our separate ways and I think the burden of the history is too heavy.
I've been able to develop healthy friendships in place of the sibling relationships. I think the next generation in my family will do better, at least I hope so, because the level of awareness about all kinds of things is better. My parents didn't have the tools to pass to us kids.
Just good for thought about the sibling dynamics. She came by it honestly, if she's insecure, just like you did. It all sucks.
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Post by seeking on Dec 25, 2021 22:27:57 GMT
Hey, been reading this and doing Christmas with my daughter - but two thoughts I wanted to post - mostly so I don't forget, and in response to Introvert- I hadn't really thought of the term emotionally unavailable. But that strikes me. I have spent a lot of time thinking I had to some how "toughen up" or "not be triggered" but I think at the point I wrote this post, I realized I was just done with that attitude, and want to do something to protect and nurture myself more. But it's hard. They are all adult children and right now for instance my dad is pretty sick with covid and my sister and I go back and forth. We clearly both have the intention of helping him and my mom - but this morning, I woke up (after already deciding not to go to my sister's this year - before it got canceled due to everyone being sick) and didn't even want to look at my phone. I just wanted to be in Christmas morning space with my daughter and ZERO drama. It's like constant anxiety-ridden drama with them. And I need to really protect myself from it. Often, it's not malicious - just like people who can't seem to function or take care of themselves or need a lot of soothing and have high anxiety. So in some ways, it sort of pulls at my heart strings and it's hard to separate from. Saying anything, like I said, is like speaking another language. My sister chose years ago never to work on herself or do therapy. She just hires people to soothe her. And so that's about it. Mostly, I just try to keep my distance and always feel dread ....  I think if it weren't for having a child who is close in age to my sister's oldest daughter, I would be where I was years ago - living in another country, visiting occasionally and mostly distant. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 23:10:51 GMT
Yeah, I get it. You don't have to toughen up, actually you can just take it easy and spend time with people who are available and warm, and who feel good to you and not always challenging to your values and feelings.
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Post by seeking on Dec 26, 2021 2:18:16 GMT
Yeah, I get it. You don't have to toughen up, actually you can just take it easy and spend time with people who are available and warm, and who feel good to you and not always challenging to your values and feelings. It's crazy that its taking me this long to figure that out! And, its tough, too, because they seem so ridiculously helpless at times. It is hard for me to see anyone suffer unnecessarily - esp if there is something I can do to help. But it is generally exhausting, and I keep bringing myself back to - if I have something to give, I will. But I haven't lately. Well, I do some things - and I do what I can. Thanks for the support here. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 3:54:09 GMT
Yeah, I get it. You don't have to toughen up, actually you can just take it easy and spend time with people who are available and warm, and who feel good to you and not always challenging to your values and feelings. It's crazy that its taking me this long to figure that out! And, its tough, too, because they seem so ridiculously helpless at times. It is hard for me to see anyone suffer unnecessarily - esp if there is something I can do to help. But it is generally exhausting, and I keep bringing myself back to - if I have something to give, I will. But I haven't lately. Well, I do some things - and I do what I can. Thanks for the support here. I also feel a sense of duty to help, I hate to see people suffer. I think for a long time I kind of believed that by doing so I could justify my existence. But over time I have learned my boundaries and what it feels like to give "right" and what it feels like to give "wrong". I'm really glad you found the feedback helpful, it's my pleasure. |
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Post by anne12 on Dec 26, 2021 10:10:54 GMT
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Post by cherrycola on Dec 27, 2021 4:38:26 GMT
I'm noticing this dynamic with folks that has always made me uncomfortable and go to shame. I probably do it myself to other people but when it's done to me, it feels awful. And it's not even like people doing it are that conscious of it, I imagine? Or intending to do it - but I know it comes from an avoidant side of them. My sister for instance. She is very avoidant. Very bitchy, cranky, not compassionate - like at all. She'll be friends with you and like you if you can keep it light and if you have sort of a picture-perfect instagram feed with lots of little crafts and cookies and talk about things like angels and look really good -that's all she's ever talked about, what gets her attention, basically what she "approves of" - everything else gets sort of a long glance. I grew up with this in my family - both parents, my sister. And now I'm just sensitive to it. We have been talking lately, which always inevitably leads to problems - but in this round I'm just kind of noticing more what the sticky part is. She wasn't feeling well yesterday and while I have had MAJOR TRAUMA happen here and she's never once asked if I was okay, how I am, etc. I decided this morning that it felt good to me to ask how she was - and that it was unusual for either of us to do that. I said "How are you feeling" She texted back "fine." So that was that. Later, I said something about my dad being draining. She gets annoyed with him all the time. But if I say it, she suddenly defends him - "He just is who he is." "You can't change people." I wrote back "not looking to change anyone, just may need a long break." Then, since none of us can be together on Christmas, I suggested we meet on Zoom later - her kids, mine, and our parents -- one of whom is home with pretty bad covid, and the other who is in another room staying away from him. And my sister goes, "I hate zoom." I guess the word - or energy of - rejection just comes up a lot -- and while I can be outside of it looking in with friends who experience this, it's hard! A friend yesterday was talking about how it makes her go to shame .... it feels like the opposite of acceptance. And while I have seen her give it a TON of power (which kind of reminds me of an anxious type chasing an avoidant), I've largely managed to stop giving it power - but I can still feel a bit de-valued. And I just don't know how to shift it or get away from it. And you can't ever really address it with the person b/c they'd never in a million years acknowledge it. Sometimes I'm not even sure if they're aware they're doing it. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Relate? Wow. You saying this really resignated with me. I love my sister and with both our parents gone she is what I have left for family but I've come to realize she isn't a safe person for me. She has had years and years of therapy so I always thought the problem was me. I didn't have words for it, just that it made me feel terrible and I just hid anything authentic or vulnerable even further. As I've worked on myself I try to validate her, listen to her non-judgementally. Provide her empathy, but it's exhausting to not recieved much back. I recently admitted to my counselor I don't like my sister as a person. |
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Post by seeking on Dec 27, 2021 16:30:59 GMT
Wow. You saying this really resignated with me. I love my sister and with both our parents gone she is what I have left for family but I've come to realize she isn't a safe person for me. She has had years and years of therapy so I always thought the problem was me. I didn't have words for it, just that it made me feel terrible and I just hid anything authentic or vulnerable even further. As I've worked on myself I try to validate her, listen to her non-judgementally. Provide her empathy, but it's exhausting to not recieved much back. I recently admitted to my counselor I don't like my sister as a person. Sorry to hear that. It's a hard path. There is a kind of "default" there. But it's too painful. I am exhausted by how painful and confusing it is. Even this morning. She asked me a question - her friend is getting a dog, and should she _____________ - and my answer wasn't simple. I've been on a bit of a complicated journey with my dog. So I shared the bare minimum, but it was still like 4 little sections in text. I shared completely genuinely. And my sister freaking writes back "oh." Like why does every single exchange have to be so bizarre? What is wrong with "Thanks for the info!" That's what I mean about exhausting. Like that, to me, feels super draining. The world feels strange when you can't even be close to your own family members - and while I know it's a very common things for many, it still hurts in a very specific way that I don't know if I'll ever get over. But before I had a kid, I was never close to them - my mother, maybe. But she had that painful side to her too. I always envy people in a way who created closeness with friends and have a partner at least and their own family. Anyway, thanks for listening! |
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Post by cherrycola on Dec 27, 2021 20:56:04 GMT
Wow. You saying this really resignated with me. I love my sister and with both our parents gone she is what I have left for family but I've come to realize she isn't a safe person for me. She has had years and years of therapy so I always thought the problem was me. I didn't have words for it, just that it made me feel terrible and I just hid anything authentic or vulnerable even further. As I've worked on myself I try to validate her, listen to her non-judgementally. Provide her empathy, but it's exhausting to not recieved much back. I recently admitted to my counselor I don't like my sister as a person. Sorry to hear that. It's a hard path. There is a kind of "default" there. But it's too painful. I am exhausted by how painful and confusing it is. Even this morning. She asked me a question - her friend is getting a dog, and should she _____________ - and my answer wasn't simple. I've been on a bit of a complicated journey with my dog. So I shared the bare minimum, but it was still like 4 little sections in text. I shared completely genuinely. And my sister freaking writes back "oh." Like why does every single exchange have to be so bizarre? What is wrong with "Thanks for the info!" That's what I mean about exhausting. Like that, to me, feels super draining. The world feels strange when you can't even be close to your own family members - and while I know it's a very common things for many, it still hurts in a very specific way that I don't know if I'll ever get over. But before I had a kid, I was never close to them - my mother, maybe. But she had that painful side to her too. I always envy people in a way who created closeness with friends and have a partner at least and their own family. Anyway, thanks for listening! Of course. That is what we are here for. One thing I am trying is to accept her as she is. Some days that is really hard, but the more I do it, the easier it gets. This "sister" I have in my head doesn't exist. It is society and my own expectations that is making me feel we should have a different relationship then the one we have. As much as I want her to change, I can only control me. So I have changed my expectations of what I can expect from her. I know she is doing her best, we both went through trauma, we just cope differently. It doesn't mean I have to listen to her bitch on end or let her invalidate me but I also don't expect her to give me the warm validating responses I crave. I try to stop looking for them and turn to a trusted friend or my counselor instead. In terms of not having closeness. A counselor once challenged me that I don't feel connected because I was the one who was afraid of it. Now I know my sister is a different case to this but in general, I think he was onto something. I think I have tried to forge relationships with people who confirm my existing beliefs. I am now looking at who I can grow with and who I need to minimize in my life. Want to give a nod to @introvert . Lack of reciprocity is a great way of putting it and something I think I've felt a lot of with a lot of people and could never put my finger on. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 27, 2021 21:11:53 GMT
One thing I am trying is to accept her as she is. Some days that is really hard, but the more I do it, the easier it gets. This "sister" I have in my head doesn't exist. It is society and my own expectations that is making me feel we should have a different relationship then the one we have. As much as I want her to change, I can only control me. So I have changed my expectations of what I can expect from her. I know she is doing her best, we both went through trauma, we just cope differently. It doesn't mean I have to listen to her bitch on end or let her invalidate me but I also don't expect her to give me the warm validating responses I crave. I try to stop looking for them and turn to a trusted friend or my counselor instead. This. This is very close to what I was thinking of responding, and any familial relation can be substituted for sister. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 0:12:03 GMT
Sorry to hear that. It's a hard path. There is a kind of "default" there. But it's too painful. I am exhausted by how painful and confusing it is. Even this morning. She asked me a question - her friend is getting a dog, and should she _____________ - and my answer wasn't simple. I've been on a bit of a complicated journey with my dog. So I shared the bare minimum, but it was still like 4 little sections in text. I shared completely genuinely. And my sister freaking writes back "oh." Like why does every single exchange have to be so bizarre? What is wrong with "Thanks for the info!" That's what I mean about exhausting. Like that, to me, feels super draining. The world feels strange when you can't even be close to your own family members - and while I know it's a very common things for many, it still hurts in a very specific way that I don't know if I'll ever get over. But before I had a kid, I was never close to them - my mother, maybe. But she had that painful side to her too. I always envy people in a way who created closeness with friends and have a partner at least and their own family. Anyway, thanks for listening! Of course. That is what we are here for. One thing I am trying is to accept her as she is. Some days that is really hard, but the more I do it, the easier it gets. This "sister" I have in my head doesn't exist. It is society and my own expectations that is making me feel we should have a different relationship then the one we have. As much as I want her to change, I can only control me. So I have changed my expectations of what I can expect from her. I know she is doing her best, we both went through trauma, we just cope differently. It doesn't mean I have to listen to her bitch on end or let her invalidate me but I also don't expect her to give me the warm validating responses I crave. I try to stop looking for them and turn to a trusted friend or my counselor instead. In terms of not having closeness. A counselor once challenged me that I don't feel connected because I was the one who was afraid of it. Now I know my sister is a different case to this but in general, I think he was onto something. I think I have tried to forge relationships with people who confirm my existing beliefs. I am now looking at who I can grow with and who I need to minimize in my life. Want to give a nod to @introvert . Lack of reciprocity is a great way of putting it and something I think I've felt a lot of with a lot of people and could never put my finger on. I remember coming to the same realization about my sister- the sister I saw when we were young isn't the individual she is as a mature adult, and I cannot relate to her the way I did when we were children. It's sad , but not everyone in my family has explored our upbringing and it's impact the same way. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 6:07:27 GMT
I was thinking more about this, remembering how painful it was in the letting go process with my sister relationship.
Like you said- it was all about letting go of expectations, and seeing and accepting her as she presents- I feel I can't really know her, and that if we met today I can't imagine cultivating a relationship at all. She's quite an enigma to me.
That acceptance didn't lead to a better relationship, it actually led me away from the relationship. I have had to go through a grief process with it, and it's taken quite some time. There were things that happened there that I can't reconcile, that go beyond just a dynamic, there was some real betrayal.
I have a higher bar for my relationships now- the dynamics have totally changed, I've changed. I chose a new family so to speak, and can relate as my authentic self without slipping back into a role.
I am not fully at peace with it, I wonder if somehow I can someday come to a place of reconciliation with her. I'm not ready. I've searched my heart and mind about it and I still have a wall. Maybe someday I can find the answer, I really don't know.
In the meantime, I have to admit I'm relieved to be free from the heaviness of that family dynamic. I don't have any relationships that feel sideways or make me feel sideways and I appreciate that a lot. Thanks for the topic, it's a good one.
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