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Post by introvert on Apr 16, 2022 14:05:27 GMT
I see what you're saying now. Thank you for sharing that link. I'm not saying that I'm simply existing in this miserable state of "noble suffering" all the time, but rather that it's a daily struggle to not be pulled in that direction. The equal but opposite reaction (avoidance, self medication and dismissal) is anathema to me, so it's not actually an option for me, though it causes me anguish to see that strategy being adopted by the person I had a relationship with. However, the push and pull does come from the feeling that even straying toward the "objective" middle ground is too much a betrayal of myself (and the patterns I cling to almost unknowingly, and certainly unproductively...) and that's why one day I'll feel like I have bird's-eye view of what happened and I move imperceptibly closer toward accepting and letting go, and the next day I'll wake up in my bed only to start the day by rehashing why I am still so upset. As I did today. There's a lot to be upset about. And it does feel like the opposite way is to do a lot of hand waving everything away, dismissing, ignoring, pretending and lying to the self. That's how I frame it, anyway. I don't want to be like that. But I'm working on it and you're right. Middle ground. The objective approach as an alternative to martyrdom and voluntary suffering. Sometimes the input I have to offer feels pretty astringent to someone who is suffering, such as yourself. I understand, but also, medicine sometimes stings. Or, at least the truth does, and something that every person who has responded on your thread has accomplished is the liberation from narratives that kept us stuck. So, if you can, try to read what I'm writing as though it comes from someone you know to be friendly, well meaning, experienced, and helpful. But also try to understand I am someone who recognized they were fully convinced of NON TRUTHS about relationships, about myself, about other people, and I was blinded by my OWN projections. I thought the problem was in other people. I thought that painful situations were inflicted upon me by other, unskillful people instead of co-created by me, as I operated in my own ignorance, pain, and confusion of insecure attachment. So take all that into consideration when I say: You have this all wrong. Really, you do. At least, as far as I can tell by reading what you've shared. You did NOT help her, you did NOT offer her some good quality loving that she just walked away from because she is wounded by her childhood. No, it's different. The fact is, you CANNOT help and love someone in a healthy, beneficial way when you are doing such a terrible job of looking after and loving yourself. This is not a new idea- everyone who knows anything about relationships knows this and insecure people don't know about relationships. It's time to wake up to the truth about your own insecure relationship with yourself, that provides the foundation for the toxic relationships you create like this one here. Read your original posts with new eyes. You had a whole anxious preoccupied narrative and set of thoughts, behaviors, and conditioned responses and all of them are hinged on insecure attachment, not secure. You began by calling yourself secure and I realize you are now seeing that you are AP- but I don't think you are really getting that your own insecurity is your problem here. Ask the neglected part of yourself, the part that YOU neglected, how good the quality of your love and relationship skills are. As yourself, the self whose feelings, needs, and dignity you were unable to protect, how strong and capable your love is. This is painful stuff to see but at every turn where you are focusing on her emotional limitations , you are missing your own. Here's another astringent thought: We ALL would like to think that WE were not the problem, we'd like to think that someone couldn't love us and someone can't meet us where we want them to because of THEIR own limitations, not because we suck to be in a relationship with. Would you say that being in a relationship with your ex was painful? Because she didn't treat you the way you needed and wanted? Her kind of loving hurt? TURN THAT ALL AROUND. Because of unhealthy relationship behaviors, not because you are inherently worthless and unlovable, but because you do not have the self love yet to love another person well and with the empathy needed to create trust, and because you are operating in the victim/martyr narrative of your particular style, I'd wager that she could say: Being in a relationship with you is painful. You didn't treat her the way SHE needed. Your kind of loving hurt. Don't believe that? Well, FA have feelings too. Look back at the angry or other self-preservation emotional responses you had to her- she likely wasn't trying to hurt you but was operating within her limited capacity. How many times did you use anger, guilt, your own overwhelming emotions... in an attempt to change her in order to get your needs met? That stuff isn't pleasant on the receiving end any more than it is on the giving end. So- I get that this is triggering stuff and you may want to fire back all kinds of defense and maybe even some good points about how she's worse than you and that I really don't get how she wronged you. I expect that, I've seen it many times before. So why do I bother to say all this stuff? Because it's the reality of insecure attachment that you're here because of your own beliefs, blind spots, conditioning, and dysfunctional approach to relationship. That's true of all of us contributing here so join the club. We are working through it and so can you. The AP lament you have going on is part of your illness so to speak, and the cure is to really take the advice of everyone who has been saying: Focus on yourself. Not in self-defeating, self blaming and self hating way, but with a skilled therapist who can help you find and disarm your own psychological booby traps. Or; if not with a therapist, try Thais Gibson, or any other number of experts offering real, practical information about your problem, which is not that you got dumped by an insecure woman but that you are insecure yourself and you created a very painful relationship out of that insecurity. I truly wish you the best. Recovery is possible but only if you do the work of it. |
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Post by introvert on Apr 16, 2022 14:30:41 GMT
What I mean by "read your original post with new eyes"...
Go back to your journal entries. Where you are writing about how she neglects you, how she doesn't pay attention to you, your needs, your feelings, your loneliness... replace that with statements about yourself. You've acknowledged in this thread that you didn't take care of yourself. But the focus for most of your writing is on her deficiencies in the relationship with you. You've got to look at your deficiencies in your relationship WITH YOU and work to correct those. It's not that she was good in a relationship. But if you had a good relationship with yourself, could listen to and understand your own needs, feelings, boundaries, you wouldn't have pursued someone so consistently unavailable to you. You wouldn't have settled for chasing an unavailable woman who told you straight up she was struggling to make it work with you, and why. You wouldn't have discounted what she actually said and did, that proved the relationship untenable, looking for hope against all hope.
I'm not beating you up, it may feel that way but most of us had to see ourselves in a more objective light in order to get healthier and it isn't pleasant. Try to give yourself the same compassion and soft treatment you give her when seeing your shortcomings- that's the real test. Can you be as understanding of your inability to create a healthy relationship, as you can with hers? Can you maintain a loving relationship with yourself in spite of flaws? If not, find someone to help you do that because it's essential to loving a flawed human being- we are all flawed and it takes a lot of growth to live comfortably and securely with that.
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Post by introvert on Apr 16, 2022 17:41:04 GMT
Also, cws2022 .... I'm not minimizing how painful this has been for you, and I'm not minimizing the impact of behavior from her that has impacted you and hurt you deeply. That's the price of insecure dynamics. They hurt, they are confusing, but the only way to really make progress and find better dynamics is to look at your own self defeating, self destructive patterns. That's what's got you snookered. |
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rykus9
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 16, 2022 20:16:58 GMT
I really think these are important posts introvert . I agree although painful to hear I don't think she would take the time to post that all except out of love and hope for you and your mental health and development. As a dismissive FA myself with an AP leaning partner here are some of our meltdowns as I imagine them playing out. Her in her head "I'm hungry, I wonder if he wants to eat. Waits till she's angry hungry to see if I suggest anything.but never brings anything up. Me in my head unaware of my body, doesn't notice I am also hungry starting to sense my partner being agitated. Her in her head " I really want thais food, I know last time he didn't enjoy it that much. I'm always so pick with food. Maybe he wants to choose. I want him to enjoy his food maybe I'll ask him. He seems busy I don't want to bug him. Me seeing her head going and increasing frustration. " what's up you seem mad?" Her "nothing I don't want to bug you" Me "well somethings up" Her "I think I'm hungry do you want to get food?" Me "sure" Her in her head " he said sure, he probably doesn't want to. He knows I hate that word" asks me where I want to go. Me in my head " I could eat I guess, haven't had sushi in forever" " sushi?" Her in her head he knows I don't like sushi, why would he pick that. Doesn't he know me " I don't feel like sushi, what else ?" Me in my head hmm I don't know I could eat anything, she probably wants something specific " burgers?" Her "no it's too heavy" Me "well I don't really care" talking about food because I don't and I've only had 3 minutes to think about food even. Her offended now " what do you mean you don't care, I just want to go eat dinner with you and be close and you don't care?" Me in my head now frustrated and offended as well I just wish she would choose I like spending time with her but it's always so much work. " I am hungry too ill eat anything. What about that new Italian spot? Her "no I don't want that" Me "well is there anything you do want?" Her "I know you don't really like it but we could get takeout from two places. I kind of want Thai food I think" Me in my head "really ... like seriously you new this whole time and just wanted me to choose so you could shoot down every thing I suggested..thanks" Her in her head " he always makes me choose everything, I hate it when he won't make a decision and is so wishy washy. Nothing would get done if I didn't make him commit" Maybe a little exaggerated but I've had conversations exactly like this. By trying to over cater to someone or put them first you are also adding a lot of pressure and stress on them, and possibly asking of them things they may not be able or comfortable doing. |
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Post by introvert on Apr 16, 2022 21:02:47 GMT
I really think these are important posts introvert . I agree although painful to hear I don't think she would take the time to post that all except out of love and hope for you and your mental health and development. As a dismissive FA myself with an AP leaning partner here are some of our meltdowns as I imagine them playing out. Her in her head "I'm hungry, I wonder if he wants to eat. Waits till she's angry hungry to see if I suggest anything.but never brings anything up. Me in my head unaware of my body, doesn't notice I am also hungry starting to sense my partner being agitated. Her in her head " I really want thais food, I know last time he didn't enjoy it that much. I'm always so pick with food. Maybe he wants to choose. I want him to enjoy his food maybe I'll ask him. He seems busy I don't want to bug him. Me seeing her head going and increasing frustration. " what's up you seem mad?" Her "nothing I don't want to bug you" Me "well somethings up" Her "I think I'm hungry do you want to get food?" Me "sure" Her in her head " he said sure, he probably doesn't want to. He knows I hate that word" asks me where I want to go. Me in my head " I could eat I guess, haven't had sushi in forever" " sushi?" Her in her head he knows I don't like sushi, why would he pick that. Doesn't he know me " I don't feel like sushi, what else ?" Me in my head hmm I don't know I could eat anything, she probably wants something specific " burgers?" Her "no it's too heavy" Me "well I don't really care" talking about food because I don't and I've only had 3 minutes to think about food even. Her offended now " what do you mean you don't care, I just want to go eat dinner with you and be close and you don't care?" Me in my head now frustrated and offended as well I just wish she would choose I like spending time with her but it's always so much work. " I am hungry too ill eat anything. What about that new Italian spot? Her "no I don't want that" Me "well is there anything you do want?" Her "I know you don't really like it but we could get takeout from two places. I kind of want Thai food I think" Me in my head "really ... like seriously you new this whole time and just wanted me to choose so you could shoot down every thing I suggested..thanks" Her in her head " he always makes me choose everything, I hate it when he won't make a decision and is so wishy washy. Nothing would get done if I didn't make him commit" Maybe a little exaggerated but I've had conversations exactly like this. By trying to over cater to someone or put them first you are also adding a lot of pressure and stress on them, and possibly asking of them things they may not be able or comfortable doing. 100 % |
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Post by introvert on Apr 16, 2022 21:58:34 GMT
Any objective source recognizes TWO dysfunctional, self absorbed people in the unaware insecurely attached dynamic. There are no bad guys and good guys. There is dysfunction. The dynamic requires two sick people to form and to function. It can go on for years or just months, it can blow up or just dissolve. and then the individuals move forward into the aftermath carrying their dysfunctional selves and all their dysfunctional baggage into single dome or another relationship.
So- people on this forum are generally working with their own liabilities as insecurely attached people, and having varying degrees of success with that. We are all in different stages- some further along than others but the general tone of most of the interactions is.... take a look at yourself, that's where the answers are. We aren't all just throwing stones and acting out. It does happen, but not with the people you have responding to you here. Everyone on this thread is working through their own stuff and not trying to put anybody down.
And to the point made above by rykus... I was a little father along than my partner in the awareness department earlier on... here's something that was painful and destructive:
Me: In my working day, balancing my responsibilities with my desire to see and spend time with my partner, who is a priority to me... I arrange my day so that I can show up, and be available to my partner who has been waiting to see me because he wants to spend time with me too. I arrive at his house, but have to take care of some unfinished business because of communications I received on my phone while driving... So I quickly explain I have to wrap up this text exchange while it's fresh so I don't forget it. I've said Hello, smiled, and asked for just a moment. I focus on answering the message I have to answer.
Him: Visibly offended, turns cold and then feels the need to point out that I am rude, uncaring, inconsiderate, for being involved with my phone and brushing him off. He comes off as hurt and critical, and annoyed. Also, a bit self righteous because he's never done that to me. (Wrong, I just don't feel threatened or react to it, I get it).
Me: Hurt and angry- what a punch in the face, to arrange my day to see him and show up and all I needed was a moment to wrap up a critical part of my JOB. I pay my own bills, I have my own responsibilities, and I have to balance that ALL. Instead of being appreciated and supported and welcomed, I feel ground down and misunderstood and accused of being a bad partner. Do I feel warm and loving and loved by now? You bet I don't. I feel exhausted and frustrated and unappreciated.
In the Healing AP thread you will see this negative trait in the AP described... a difficulty with the reunion, anger and angst coming up. But when do we hear about that otherwise? AP issues tend to be brushed under the rug and excused as justified because the avoidant was the bad guy first.
That kind of exchange , in my relationship, is a thing of the past. It took standing up for myself, and telling him how I felt, and making boundaries as well as agreements between us about how to handle emotions and communication. This doesn't happen anymore, but if it was still going on I wouldn't want to be around it. There is a ton of dialog on this board about how horrible avoidants are at relationships, and that's understandable but the other side of the coin can be mimized, and that really isn't doing the anxious posters looking for answers much good in the long run.
The only reason to being this up is to just point out, we all have work to do to become better partners. We all could find someone to blame and feel victimized by. But that isn't where the growth comes from.
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Post by cws2022 on Apr 18, 2022 21:13:59 GMT
You have this all wrong. Really, you do. At least, as far as I can tell by reading what you've shared. You did NOT help her, you did NOT offer her some good quality loving that she just walked away from because she is wounded by her childhood. I want to thank you for your wisdom, your input and your time. I'm not interested in arguing with you or being defensive but (here we go) I do think that when I read your comment, this does come off as if you are solely blaming me and absolving the other person of responsibility. I realize that from your perspective that I am doing the same and attempting to absolve myself of all responsibility when in fact, I can assure you, I have not done that and I am not doing that. Even if it is true that my posts to this forum are undoubtedly greatly skewed toward understanding / questioning / dissecting the motives of the other half of this relationship equation. There is no way that you can definitively say I offered her nothing and that I did not help her at all. Do I have attachment wounds? Definitely. Was I one part of a dysfunctional dynamic that I helped to maintain and propagate? Clearly. Was I useless as a partner and ultimately failed to provide her with anything of value as a result of my own wounds? Hardly. I'm sure you can be more reasonable than to suggest such a thing. The only person that can offer her "good quality loving" to walk away from would be some idealistic version of an entirely Secure partner? Come on. And I'll forgive you for that because I didn't spend much time writing about the flowery and wonderful parts of our relationship because that's not what I'm here for. Although my inability to really understand how things are now in relation to how they actually were back then is a major source of pain, for me, especially considering there was no gradual falling out, just a short, sharp drop off. This is absolutely fair to say and it hurts me to even consider that I was actually hurting her in order to get what I wanted from her. Which wasn't much, except to communicate, participate, and to either not pull away or to be transparent about her need to do so. I understand now but I did not understand any of this at the time. My words and actions were never abusive, for the record. Ever. I never called her so much as a rude name. But did I display emotion? Did I use guilt? Yeah, I'm sure I did. I didn't know how else to communicate what I was feeling, back then. I know I've failed. I know I need to look hard at myself. And I know in some ways that I did this to myself. But a lot of this feels like gaslighting. I never lied. I didn't run away. I didn't shut her out or cut her off or disassociate from my feelings or adopt a false attitude of indifference. What is the point of keeping score? There isn't one. It's all ruined, anyway. Anyway, I'm sure I'm wrong and that I am failing to see things the way you want me to, and I also know that continuing to feel broken over this is not helping me at all. It does nothing for me. I wake up in the morning and I know and understand all of the reasons why this happened, and yet, I cannot understand or make sense of how good everything was and how quickly it devolved into pain and suffering that seems entirely one-sided. One person gets to disassociate, justify, pretend, forget and move on immediately. Must be nice. Despite my best efforts, I'm coming off like a dick here. How am I really supposed to deal with being this close to someone, speaking to them nearly every day for 2.5 years, and then the relationship falls off a cliff and we never speak again? That's a rhetorical question. I don't know how to make sense of that. I really cannot. That's how I feel every day. I wish I could cut my emotions off like that. I wish I could even understand how she could cut her emotions off like that. We spent all of that time together, all of that time getting to know each other, and now she treats me with complete, utter indifference. And she's moved on like I never, ever mattered. How is that supposed to make me feel? |
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Post by cws2022 on Apr 18, 2022 21:24:23 GMT
Edit: I can't fix the formatting here but I am responding to: "Would you say that being in a relationship with your ex was painful? Because she didn't treat you the way you needed and wanted? Her kind of loving hurt?"No, I wouldn't. I would have never said that. Ever. Up until the day she started to end things. Was a frustrated by her pulling away at times? By her inability to participate in small ways? Definitely. But it was the exception and not the rule and I in no way would have characterized my relationship with her as painful. She did these things at almost regular intervals, perhaps I should have broken up with her long ago. That's where I was self-sacraficing and making a huge mistake by doing so. I understand that. But in no way was I miserable or in pain. Though I expect you could say that's more self-sacrafice and I was just ignoring the fact that this person was hurting me on occasion, just so that I could keep the relationship together. Are there really relationships where these conflicts never, ever happen? I sincerely doubt it. If the idea is to leave the relationship at the first sign of having to deal with the other person's dysfunction... I guess these things are just never, ever supposed to work out long term. |
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rykus9
Junior Member
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 18, 2022 22:24:46 GMT
Hey cws2022 I think your post above is really great and I think you are starting to see or are better vocalizing your thoughts about the share of responsibility.
No one here wants anything more than for you to grow for you, that is it. We are all here to support one another and often that can be hard because once you are removed emotionally and are doing hard work on yourself it can appear very clear and logical, so often trying to help can result in instigating a firm of the anxious avoidant trap all over again.
Also it is easy to be triggered by people that aren't quite aware yet or seem less aware than they are because they are under emotional duress or in the pain brought about by not understanding fully the dynamics because they are so wrapped up in them.
I am an FA, I can sympathize with you and I know that I hurt women the way she hurt you. I entered your thread with nothing but kindness and respect for your process because I thought that is what you really needed was to feel heard and supported.
I will say as an FA my AP leaning partner is very challenging for me. If you ask her she is way more supportive and cares more than me. She loves me more than I do her etc etc. I try to express myself but somehow the way I am is wrong to her and she always feels she is helping me by analyzing everything I do and trying to make it better or easier or whatever.
The point is, her way of loving and caring is too much sometimes, I don't need to learn to put pillow cases on a pillow properly I'm 41 years old and I've had a pillow since I was in a crib or shortly ther after.
It's not a bad thing I appreciate the level of thought she puts into everything. But it is a aspect of control and sometimes when she's in high AP mode her micro managing me instead of being present and accountable for herself is her distraction, it's the same as me running away.
This is the trap, you avoid your own feelings by focusing on "fixing" everything for her, or putting extra time and energy into really getting an indepth answer so you can please your partner but in doing so changing conversations from a healthy back and forth to focusing solely on the avoidant which is exactly what they are trying to avoid!
Like was mentioned there is no wrong or worse side, we are both avoiding pain and that pain is growth that we need to connect in a healthy way.
If you go in the support for AP section you will find tools and stories by other AP folks doing work on themselves. If you ask questions there you will receive a lot of support from all the good people here DAs FAs and APs as well as those folks that have earned secure!
The sections here are filled with stories like yours and a lot of them end in people putting the blame on dismissive partners.
The reality is that for the dismissive all the painful part was probably happening during the relationship when you thought that everything was fine. By the time she left she had already endured the pain and processed the loss so to you it came out of nowhere and is a sign of a cold heart but to her you never understood her and she felt that pain until she decided it was too much or not worth the hurt and moved on. Yes it is immature and hurtful but for me I even try so hard to say exactly what I'm feeling and my feeling are often dismissed or deemed invalid or wrong, after the fights she feels closer like we bonded and I feel completely ignored and rejected, so then it becomes another thing where she wants to be close and hold hands etc and I still just want to escape and regroup on.my own.
I'm sorry again for the hurt all around and I'm not trying to say you did anything wrong or should take on any blame in all of this, but know that as a dismissive or a anxious we are both avoiding hurt and seeking love and approval. Being fair to yourself and her is important as is trying to understand the things in yourself you can change to be a better version of you in the future so you can give and receive love in a mindful and healthy way!
You will see if you stick around, we all support each other here and anyone doing the work or opening up to the possibilities. I really do hope you can see even the hardest posts to read are writing with love and respect for you on your journey, and it takes strength to say those hard things so it can get a bit harder with all the emotion attached.
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Post by introvert on Apr 18, 2022 23:12:03 GMT
Edit: I can't fix the formatting here but I am responding to: "Would you say that being in a relationship with your ex was painful? Because she didn't treat you the way you needed and wanted? Her kind of loving hurt?"No, I wouldn't. I would have never said that. Ever. Up until the day she started to end things. Was a frustrated by her pulling away at times? By her inability to participate in small ways? Definitely. But it was the exception and not the rule and I in no way would have characterized my relationship with her as painful. She did these things at almost regular intervals, perhaps I should have broken up with her long ago. That's where I was self-sacraficing and making a huge mistake by doing so. I understand that. But in no way was I miserable or in pain. Though I expect you could say that's more self-sacrafice and I was just ignoring the fact that this person was hurting me on occasion, just so that I could keep the relationship together. Are there really relationships where these conflicts never, ever happen? I sincerely doubt it. If the idea is to leave the relationship at the first sign of having to deal with the other person's dysfunction... I guess these things are just never, ever supposed to work out long term. This sounds like pretty black and white thinking here at the end... for my reply, please refer to my many posts on this forum (as an avoidant, mind you) discussing the resolution of difficulty in my relationship. I don't want to have black and white type of discussions. My partner is more anxious leaning. Just so you can understand my take on that pairing . My question as to whether you would consider the relationship painful refers to your complaints in your recent posts, the fact that she withdrew and you were unhappy about that as a pattern, and the fact that her love was not consistent, and has now been cut off. |
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Post by introvert on Apr 18, 2022 23:59:51 GMT
Any objective source recognizes TWO dysfunctional, self absorbed people in the unaware insecurely attached dynamic. There are no bad guys and good guys. There is dysfunction. The dynamic requires two sick people to form and to function. It can go on for years or just months, it can blow up or just dissolve. and then the individuals move forward into the aftermath carrying their dysfunctional selves and all their dysfunctional baggage into single dome or another relationship. So- people on this forum are generally working with their own liabilities as insecurely attached people, and having varying degrees of success with that. We are all in different stages- some further along than others but the general tone of most of the interactions is.... take a look at yourself, that's where the answers are. We aren't all just throwing stones and acting out. It does happen, but not with the people you have responding to you here. Everyone on this thread is working through their own stuff and not trying to put anybody down. And to the point made above by rykus... I was a little father along than my partner in the awareness department earlier on... here's something that was painful and destructive: Me: In my working day, balancing my responsibilities with my desire to see and spend time with my partner, who is a priority to me... I arrange my day so that I can show up, and be available to my partner who has been waiting to see me because he wants to spend time with me too. I arrive at his house, but have to take care of some unfinished business because of communications I received on my phone while driving... So I quickly explain I have to wrap up this text exchange while it's fresh so I don't forget it. I've said Hello, smiled, and asked for just a moment. I focus on answering the message I have to answer. Him: Visibly offended, turns cold and then feels the need to point out that I am rude, uncaring, inconsiderate, for being involved with my phone and brushing him off. He comes off as hurt and critical, and annoyed. Also, a bit self righteous because he's never done that to me. (Wrong, I just don't feel threatened or react to it, I get it). Me: Hurt and angry- what a punch in the face, to arrange my day to see him and show up and all I needed was a moment to wrap up a critical part of my JOB. I pay my own bills, I have my own responsibilities, and I have to balance that ALL. Instead of being appreciated and supported and welcomed, I feel ground down and misunderstood and accused of being a bad partner. Do I feel warm and loving and loved by now? You bet I don't. I feel exhausted and frustrated and unappreciated. In the Healing AP thread you will see this negative trait in the AP described... a difficulty with the reunion, anger and angst coming up. But when do we hear about that otherwise? AP issues tend to be brushed under the rug and excused as justified because the avoidant was the bad guy first. That kind of exchange , in my relationship, is a thing of the past. It took standing up for myself, and telling him how I felt, and making boundaries as well as agreements between us about how to handle emotions and communication. This doesn't happen anymore, but if it was still going on I wouldn't want to be around it. There is a ton of dialog on this board about how horrible avoidants are at relationships, and that's understandable but the other side of the coin can be mimized, and that really isn't doing the anxious posters looking for answers much good in the long run. The only reason to being this up is to just point out, we all have work to do to become better partners. We all could find someone to blame and feel victimized by. But that isn't where the growth comes from. , did you read this post? It seems to me in one of your responses to me you are cherry picking what I've said, and saying I am coming off as blaming you solely? Do you stand by that assertion taking this post into consideration? I think it's more your tendency to go into blaming yourself, you've mentioned that in the thread. I don't tend to skip from one end to the other, in the black and white thinking trap. I just don't, even if it may seem that way then clarification is needed. I have pretty consistently referred to a dynamic between people. And when I am addressing an anxious poster whose tendency is to feel that they gave the good love that was rejected for no other reason than their ex is avoidant, I will point out that insecure love is not as beneficial as one imagines when in the anxious avoidant trap, that is all. Of course there are ways we help each other even in unhealthy relationships. I grew in even toxic relationships with some help from a partner. My statement about you not helping her by giving good love that she walked away from because she's wounded, I will clarify this way: I personally see you as equally dysfunctional as her. I don't think you are healthier just because you are more persistent in an unhealthy dynamic. I truly don't believe, like many experts don't believe, that someone self sacrificing and insecure as yourself in this relationship can be the savior for anything longer than short term. I do believe that she did not gain much in terms of long term self awareness and the healing of wounds, in your relationship, from your dynamic. The reason I believe what I do is that she hopped into another one, after being what seems to be very FA disorganized while with you.. So- the sacrifice; the intention to help, the kind of love you hoped to give, all were well intentioned on some level but also misguided. I return to the underlying truth that I think can't be stressed enough: If you are harming yourself you are harming another whether you recognize or understand it or not. If you are over compensating and loving in a codependent way you are also ENABLING. There is no avoidant on this kind of relationship without an anxious person chasing. The dynamic is self perpetuating between two people and neither gets real help. The just become more entrenched. She needed someone as insecure and unrealistic as herself in order to have her pattern work. You were that someone. Sad, to be sure, and it's not intentional when people get twisted to get her this way. It's the reality of insecure dynamics. I could go on. So, we may disagree on several issues, and I completely understand if you reject my views. I don't see you as a dick. Im sorry you feel gaslit, I find that unsurprising with the way you have cherry picked my statements and taken some things out of context, but I'll forgive that because I know you're hurting and under the influence of a lot of painful emotions. I have withdrawn from threads where my input is unhelpful and don't mind doing that at all. And also, I don't mind offering a perspective contrary to yours, you came here writing certain things and it being a public discussion forum, I offered a reply. One more note, the option to either going through it as you are, or taking the "easy" way out as an avoidant, is to see a skilled therapist about your codependecncy and anxious attachment and work through the relationship as it was and now is, constructively. It isn't without pain but also, there may be some real benefit. I don't think that going through it in any insecure style without actively working for growth and new information and new ways to understand is helpful and it actually creates a deeper trench to stay entrenched in. Best to you! |
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Post by introvert on Apr 19, 2022 0:41:58 GMT
I want to reiterate as well, cws2022, I know this breakup has absolutely gutted you, and I do understand that. I have been in tremendous amounts of emotional pain in my life as well, I can empathize. However, what I have learned is that my thought processes and beliefs, and behaviors have a great deal of influence on how I suffer, how much I suffer, how frequently I suffer, and if I learn anything or can create any kind of new life after suffering. That is the only reason to engage with you here in the way I have, it's because I know that this is true of all of us, and there actually is a different approach to try when your automatic, conditioned thoughts, beliefs and behaviors aren't working or are causing you harm. |
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Post by introvert on Apr 19, 2022 1:12:58 GMT
The sections here are filled with stories like yours and a lot of them end in people putting the blame on dismissive partners The reality is that for the dismissive all the painful part was probably happening during the relationship when you thought that everything was fine. By the time she left she had already endured the pain and processed the loss so to you it came out of nowhere and is a sign of a cold heart but to her you never understood her and she felt that pain until she decided it was too much or not worth the hurt and moved on. Yes it is immature and hurtful but for me I even try so hard to say exactly what I'm feeling and my feeling are often dismissed or deemed invalid or wrong, after the fights she feels closer like we bonded and I feel completely ignored and rejected, so then it becomes another thing where she wants to be close and hold hands etc and I still just want to escape and regroup on.my own. very well said. I also wanted to clarify, my posts aren't coming out of a triggered state, I don't have a lot of emotion behind them. I've escaped the trap in my relationships and don't feel a bunch of unfinished business coming up when I read about the trap here. However, I understand that my posts have the potential to be triggering. I have been triggered in my process over the years when presented with information that challenged me or opposed my critical view of others (ha!) and my avoidant strategies... so I can empathize with being triggered and yet, I don't agree that triggering should be avoided and that a comfort zone or insecure view ought to be left unchallenged. I draw a line of course with disrespect, cruelty, abuse, etc... trolling and whatnot is just gross. We've had our share of that on this forum too. I've tried to express myself as authentically as possible and not sugar coat, I also am not completely insensitive to the pain on the boards. There are limits to how well something can be received or conveyed through writing, and in the end, we all have to try to be reasonable even if emotions are involved. Again, I'm always willing to withdraw if my input isn't helpful or welcome, so there's no fight here cws2022 ! |
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 19, 2022 3:10:28 GMT
Hey cws2022 I think your post above is really great and I think you are starting to see or are better vocalizing your thoughts about the share of responsibility. No one here wants anything more than for you to grow for you, that is it. We are all here to support one another and often that can be hard because once you are removed emotionally and are doing hard work on yourself it can appear very clear and logical, so often trying to help can result in instigating a firm of the anxious avoidant trap all over again. Also it is easy to be triggered by people that aren't quite aware yet or seem less aware than they are because they are under emotional duress or in the pain brought about by not understanding fully the dynamics because they are so wrapped up in them. I am an FA, I can sympathize with you and I know that I hurt women the way she hurt you. I entered your thread with nothing but kindness and respect for your process because I thought that is what you really needed was to feel heard and supported. I will say as an FA my AP leaning partner is very challenging for me. If you ask her she is way more supportive and cares more than me. She loves me more than I do her etc etc. I try to express myself but somehow the way I am is wrong to her and she always feels she is helping me by analyzing everything I do and trying to make it better or easier or whatever. The point is, her way of loving and caring is too much sometimes, I don't need to learn to put pillow cases on a pillow properly I'm 41 years old and I've had a pillow since I was in a crib or shortly ther after. It's not a bad thing I appreciate the level of thought she puts into everything. But it is a aspect of control and sometimes when she's in high AP mode her micro managing me instead of being present and accountable for herself is her distraction, it's the same as me running away. This is the trap, you avoid your own feelings by focusing on "fixing" everything for her, or putting extra time and energy into really getting an indepth answer so you can please your partner but in doing so changing conversations from a healthy back and forth to focusing solely on the avoidant which is exactly what they are trying to avoid! Like was mentioned there is no wrong or worse side, we are both avoiding pain and that pain is growth that we need to connect in a healthy way. If you go in the support for AP section you will find tools and stories by other AP folks doing work on themselves. If you ask questions there you will receive a lot of support from all the good people here DAs FAs and APs as well as those folks that have earned secure! The sections here are filled with stories like yours and a lot of them end in people putting the blame on dismissive partners. The reality is that for the dismissive all the painful part was probably happening during the relationship when you thought that everything was fine. By the time she left she had already endured the pain and processed the loss so to you it came out of nowhere and is a sign of a cold heart but to her you never understood her and she felt that pain until she decided it was too much or not worth the hurt and moved on. Yes it is immature and hurtful but for me I even try so hard to say exactly what I'm feeling and my feeling are often dismissed or deemed invalid or wrong, after the fights she feels closer like we bonded and I feel completely ignored and rejected, so then it becomes another thing where she wants to be close and hold hands etc and I still just want to escape and regroup on.my own. I'm sorry again for the hurt all around and I'm not trying to say you did anything wrong or should take on any blame in all of this, but know that as a dismissive or a anxious we are both avoiding hurt and seeking love and approval. Being fair to yourself and her is important as is trying to understand the things in yourself you can change to be a better version of you in the future so you can give and receive love in a mindful and healthy way! You will see if you stick around, we all support each other here and anyone doing the work or opening up to the possibilities. I really do hope you can see even the hardest posts to read are writing with love and respect for you on your journey, and it takes strength to say those hard things so it can get a bit harder with all the emotion attached. I just want to say…I love this post. You do a fantastic job of articulating what I am sure that the guy I dated “b” wishes he could have said to me but did not want to hurt my feelings. Looking back…I did a great disservice to both of us as I either ignore, avoided or switched topics when B raised the fact that he had “doubts”. I was sooo committed to the idea that he was the one without ever really confirming that he was onboard with me. This has been a great opportunity to me to see the hurt I probably caused him without intending to. |
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rykus9
Junior Member
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 19, 2022 3:44:34 GMT
Thank you tnr9 I'm glad that I'm starting g to be able to put some of my observations into words, even more glad if it can help anyone else grow. I know reading your journey and those of others here has helped me greatly understand my part in the hurt and I am trying so hard to not do that anymore. |
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