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Post by seeking on Jan 15, 2022 16:25:38 GMT
I wasn't sure where to put this thought/question or what to title it. But I have a feeling some of the wise folks here can help me understand this.
I'm reading a book recommended here, and I have just been thinking a lot about this.
But there are those of us who were harmed by what seems to be a subset of people (usually starting in childhood with a parent) who I'll try to describe.
The first characteristic as far as I can tell (of this "harmless harmer") is they don't think they need help or that they're the problem.
Beyond that, they may know they need help but can't take ownership - it's too threatening.
They usually think other people are the problem.
They are sort of sweet, seemingly big-hearted/good hearted, there is something lovable/sympathetic about them, almost child-like.
But they can do so much harm.
Does this ring a bell? I'm trying to think of a few more characteristics . . .
They are probably their own worst enemies
Kind of like addicts - they are sucked into their own darkness/demons -
They can be childlike in many ways. Definitely not in a grounded, adult space. Sometimes very young child, sometimes rebellious teenager.
They are usually very dependent on others but don't necessarily acknowledge that.
On their own, they would probably spiral into depression or living in a very messy house, not taking care of themselves.
They basically really need others to help regulate them - but often they can be avoidant/shut down.
They really don't have a lot to give - and yet they have children or partner and therefore really impact those around them.
There's definitely self-loathing involved.
And they seem to be either alone or surrounded by enablers who "only see the good" in them or hope they can change.
They are not full-blown anything - not full-blown addicts or full-blown abusers - but they can definitely *behave* abusively, even if by omission - not really being able to compliment, or show love. Not really being able to connect or be available. And this can do a lot of harm to the people around them. They can be verbally or emotionally "abusive" but it's subtle - like you can't even put a finger on it. Which is why it makes the people around them so confused and hurt because it's not like they can ever say "This person hit me/called me a name, left me on the side of the road."
In fact, they think that they are harmless and seem to have a hard time understanding how people can be so hurt by them and sort of act like the other person is sensitive or something is wrong with them (though not always on that last part) - it's like they are altogether clueless about how their behavior impacts other people (maybe because they are so caught up in their own world/survival).
But like addicts, they can literally take everyone around them down in their wake. And cause a lot of damage.
Does this sounds like "something" - I haven't been able to put a finger on it, but I've seen it over and over and have a few people in mind in my own life who fit this bill (and my daughter's) and see it with clients of mine... or is it just "run-of-the-mill" dysfunction?
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Post by seeking on Jan 16, 2022 3:04:41 GMT
I talked to a friend about this, he thinks - because he knows some of the people I'm describing - it's a form of narcissism.
But I also think it can be toxic, dysregulated people.
Also a history of trauma.
thinking attachment style is disorganized. and more avoidant.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 16, 2022 3:10:35 GMT
I was going to suggest it's people with very low to no empathy, or people triggered insecurely enough to not be receptive to any blame or responsibility / introspection. In general, yes, I'd describe it as toxic, but it could be attributed to a number of different emotional difficulties or personality disorders. Or being aware and a real terrible person, I guess, using it for intentional control tactics.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2022 3:54:58 GMT
IDK, I mean there are toxic people out there but I don't feel like it was a certain type that got to me... it was actually more how I vibed with them that harmed me. Before I learned how to genuinely take care of myself I'd been harmed by the dynamics with a few different "types" of people. None of them would have the impact now, that they did then, because I am stronger and wiser with my boundaries, self respect, and my kindness toward myself.
I think that all unaware, insecure (and other dysfunctional ) people are harmless harmers, (leaving out the harmful sadists out there) because the drive to self protect makes people selfish and less empathetic. So really, people go around inflicting harm in their ignorance and only see their side of things. But there is always another side they haven't considered. So many times, harm is also a matter of perspective (the recipient's), and what feels harmful to one person won't feel harmful to another- so I'm getting at there are harmful dynamics between two people to consider, not just 'one harms the other' situation, in most cases.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 16, 2022 4:41:59 GMT
I wasn't sure where to put this thought/question or what to title it. But I have a feeling some of the wise folks here can help me understand this. I'm reading a book recommended here, and I have just been thinking a lot about this. But there are those of us who were harmed by what seems to be a subset of people (usually starting in childhood with a parent) who I'll try to describe. The first characteristic as far as I can tell (of this "harmless harmer") is they don't think they need help or that they're the problem. Beyond that, they may know they need help but can't take ownership - it's too threatening. They usually think other people are the problem. They are sort of sweet, seemingly big-hearted/good hearted, there is something lovable/sympathetic about them, almost child-like. But they can do so much harm. Does this ring a bell? I'm trying to think of a few more characteristics . . . They are probably their own worst enemies Kind of like addicts - they are sucked into their own darkness/demons - They can be childlike in many ways. Definitely not in a grounded, adult space. Sometimes very young child, sometimes rebellious teenager. They are usually very dependent on others but don't necessarily acknowledge that. On their own, they would probably spiral into depression or living in a very messy house, not taking care of themselves. They basically really need others to help regulate them - but often they can be avoidant/shut down. They really don't have a lot to give - and yet they have children or partner and therefore really impact those around them. There's definitely self-loathing involved. And they seem to be either alone or surrounded by enablers who "only see the good" in them or hope they can change. They are not full-blown anything - not full-blown addicts or full-blown abusers - but they can definitely *behave* abusively, even if by omission - not really being able to compliment, or show love. Not really being able to connect or be available. And this can do a lot of harm to the people around them. They can be verbally or emotionally "abusive" but it's subtle - like you can't even put a finger on it. Which is why it makes the people around them so confused and hurt because it's not like they can ever say "This person hit me/called me a name, left me on the side of the road." In fact, they think that they are harmless and seem to have a hard time understanding how people can be so hurt by them and sort of act like the other person is sensitive or something is wrong with them (though not always on that last part) - it's like they are altogether clueless about how their behavior impacts other people (maybe because they are so caught up in their own world/survival). But like addicts, they can literally take everyone around them down in their wake. And cause a lot of damage. Does this sounds like "something" - I haven't been able to put a finger on it, but I've seen it over and over and have a few people in mind in my own life who fit this bill (and my daughter's) and see it with clients of mine... or is it just "run-of-the-mill" dysfunction? Soooo….I was thinking of someone with low empathy as well….however….narcissists do not need others to “regulate” them…they just feed off the adoration of others….it is called narcissist supply. People become a means by which someone with NPD gets validated in their own perspective of themselves. I went three rounds with an NPD…I don’t recommend it. The fact is that we are all capable of unintentional harm….and introvert is right that all unaware insecure can fall into that trap. |
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Post by spaghetti on Jan 17, 2022 1:04:50 GMT
Others have mentioned NPD, which might be possible, but a number of these sound like the "discouraged" sub-type of BPD (many points resonate with me personally and I'm diagnosed with this sub-type). That has a lot of overlap with C-PTSD, however, so I wouldn't say that it's necessarily a marker of a "disordered" personality. BPD also stems from trauma, so it might have more to do with being in "survival mode".
These specific aspects could better support certain types of NPD or BPD (in other words, more narcissistic-leaning Cluster-B personalities) :- They don't think they need help or that they're the problem
- They may
know they need help but can't take ownership (if the "it's too threatening" part is to do with their ego)
- They usually think other people are the problem
- They are sort of sweet, seemingly big-hearted/good hearted, there is something lovable/sympathetic about them, almost child-like (charismatic qualities and an amount of people-pleasing behaviour can make someone seem big-hearted on the surface and sensitive to people's feelings, even if it's actually more sensitivity over how people view them)
- They can do so much harm (idealize/devalue cycles, discarding relationships, unreasonable expectations of others etc)
- They are usually very dependent on others but don't necessarily acknowledge that (as a validation supply and for a sense of self-worth)
- Need others to help regulate them - but often they can be avoidant/shut down (avoid/discard when feeling criticized or needed in a way that doesn't boost their ego)
- They seem to be
either alone or surrounded by enablers who "only see the good" in them or hope they can change (you often see them surrounding themselves with enablers who focus on the "ups" of the cycles and/or "flying monkeys" who justify their behaviour and keep others in line for them)
- Not really being able to connect or be available (connection is on their terms)
- They can be verbally or emotionally "abusive" but it's subtle - like you can't even put a finger on it (gaslighting and "word salad" tactics, keeping others beneath them, being dismissive and/or invalidating, deflecting blame, subtle insults)
These aspects could indicate Discouraged (a.k.a "quiet" or "high-functioning") BPD (I'll shorthand to "dBPD"):
- They don't think they need help
or that they're the problem (in untreated dBPD, their focus may be on avoiding/controlling triggers and they may reject help that they don't feel acknowledges their suffering, or they may not feel deserving of help)
- They may know they need help but can't take ownership - it's too threatening (high levels of shame, experienced stigma from mental health professionals and/or bad experiences with hospitalization etc, or "active passivity")
- They are sort of sweet, seemingly big-hearted/good hearted, there is something lovable/sympathetic about them, almost child-like (they often have high levels of emotional empathy and appear very sensitive to others' feelings, seem to feel A LOT, and don't generally display the anger and high-conflict behaviours expected from people with Cluster-B disorders)
- They can do so much harm (acts of self-sabotage and inability to self-regulate can be confusing and emotionally draining for loved-ones)
- They are probably their own worst enemies (anger and other negative emotions are often directed inward)
- Kind of like addicts - they are sucked into their own darkness/demons (tendency to withdraw into their own suffering, difficulty expressing emotions, struggling to self-validate)
- They can be childlike in many ways. Definitely not in a grounded, adult space. Sometimes very young child, sometimes rebellious teenager (can be very emotional in ways that are difficult to understand for people w/o BPD - intense mood swings, over-reactions like a "child", emotions that don't seem to make sense for the situation, unhealthy and counter-productive reactions like a "teenager" who is "acting out")
- They are usually very dependent on others but don't necessarily acknowledge that (relying on others for emotional regulation as they don't feel their feelings are valid, "active-passivity" where the only way they know to solve a problem is to rely on someone else, "apparent competence" where they seem more than capable of doing something in one context but fail to in another; leaving someone else to pick up the pieces since they couldn't acknowledge that it was too much for them out of shame)
- On their own, they would probably spiral into depression or living in a very messy house, not taking care of themselves (seem successful and high-functioning to the "outside world" where there is external pressure, such as in a school/work setting, but at the expense of their own self-care)
- They basically really need others to help regulate them - but often they can be avoidant/shut down (poor ability to self-regulate emotions and self-validate, experiencing dissociative symptoms/episodes when overwhelmed, avoiding others fearing they're a burden or will be abandoned for their neediness)
- They really don't have a lot to give - and yet they have children or partner and therefore really impact those around them (close relationships are genuinely very important to them but dBPD symptoms make them unreliable and unstable, their struggles are often invisible to all but those closest or present in their home life)
- There's definitely self-loathing involved (this is the big one driving self-sabotaging behaviours, self-harm, etc)
- They seem to be either alone or surrounded by enablers who "only see the good" in them or hope they can change (people on the outside and health-care providers may not see the problem, they may only show symptoms when self-isolating, or they may be surrounded by "caretakers" who recognize how loving and capable the person with dBPD can be when they aren't having an episode or overwhelmed with stress; symptoms may seem more like "snapping under pressure" than constant)
- Not full-blown addicts (substance abuse etc is common to repress overwhelming emotions but, again, often "high-functioning")
- Not full-blown abusers - but they can definitely *behave* abusively, even if by omission (may appear manipulative when dependent on someone else to meet basic needs, and may withdraw into unhealthy avoidant behaviours when triggered)
- Not really being able to connect or be available
- Make the people around them so confused and hurt because it's not like they can ever say "This person hit me/called me a name, left me on the side of the road." (not necessarily "lashing out" at others, but seeming to be emotionally unpredictable can make people feel like they're "walking on eggshells")
- It's like they are altogether clueless about how their behavior impacts other people - maybe because they are so caught up in their own world/survival (not meaning harm, but lost in a roller-coaster of emotions and an extreme fear of abandonment)
C-PTSD could also explain many of these things, especially if the symptoms are less directly related to close relationships. I think the attachment of someone with discouraged BPD can look pretty similar to an FA, but I personally relate more to AP in close "chosen" relationships. When I act avoidant, I think it's more strongly rooted in anxiety than avoidance and generally triggered by feelings of shame, humiliation, etc versus pressure or closeness. I think attachment style can still vary between people with a shared mental health diagnosis.
One thing that's probably worth noting here is that treating BPD is not unlike working on insecure attachment. People can stop meeting the criteria after learning to act opposite to impulse, how to self-validate and regulate emotions, breaking down disordered thought patterns, etc. NPD (or the more narcissistic sub-types of BPD) can be a bit harder because you really do need higher levels of self-awareness and a willingness to change. Where someone with dBPD or insecure attachment can benefit a lot from secure relationships with people who know how to respond appropriately to protest behaviours, someone with high levels of narcissism is more likely to discard relationships that don't continue to supply the validation they need. The difference is probably whether the "harmless harmer" tries to change behaviours when they become aware of the harm caused or if they simply try to hide it. |
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Post by usernametaken on Jan 17, 2022 1:17:57 GMT
When I act avoidant, I think it's more strongly rooted in anxiety than avoidance and generally triggered by feelings of shame, humiliation, etc versus pressure or closeness. I think attachment style can still vary between people with a shared mental health diagnosis.
Avoidant attachment is also rooted in anxiety, it is the core wounds and how one expresses that anxiety that is different. Anxious tend to protest, Avoidants block it out. Anxious need someone else to help them regulate, Avoidants need to be alone to regulate themselves. |
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Post by spaghetti on Jan 17, 2022 1:41:54 GMT
When I act avoidant, I think it's more strongly rooted in anxiety than avoidance and generally triggered by feelings of shame, humiliation, etc versus pressure or closeness. I think attachment style can still vary between people with a shared mental health diagnosis.
Avoidant attachment is also rooted in anxiety, it is the core wounds and how one expresses that anxiety that is different. Anxious tend to protest, Avoidants block it out. Anxious need someone else to help them regulate, Avoidants need to be alone to regulate themselves. True, true. I just meant that while I can see how certain behaviours might seem avoidant on a surface level, it might not be for the same reasons as with an actual avoidant attachment. I may withdraw, for example, but it isn't because I need to be alone to regulate myself. Historically speaking, I've really struggled to. It's more that despite needing someone else to help me regulate, my fear of abandonment at the time was stronger so I pulled away hoping to regulate myself and hide my insecurity (often unsuccessfully). I certainly wasn't blocking it out. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2022 2:09:23 GMT
Avoidant attachment is also rooted in anxiety, it is the core wounds and how one expresses that anxiety that is different. Anxious tend to protest, Avoidants block it out. Anxious need someone else to help them regulate, Avoidants need to be alone to regulate themselves. True, true. I just meant that while I can see how certain behaviours might seem avoidant on a surface level, it might not be for the same reasons as with an actual avoidant attachment. I may withdraw, for example, but it isn't because I need to be alone to regulate myself. Historically speaking, I've really struggled to. It's more that despite needing someone else to help me regulate, my fear of abandonment at the time was stronger so I pulled away hoping to regulate myself and hide my insecurity (often unsuccessfully). I certainly wasn't blocking it out. Avoidants also get triggered by threats to the relationship, rejection etc. As mentioned, the resulting reaction differs, any insecurity is met with shutting down. So it's not just getting triggered by closeness- it's any insecurity related to the relationship, that causes deactivation (opposite of anxious activation). |
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Post by seeking on Jan 17, 2022 2:22:36 GMT
IDK, I mean there are toxic people out there but I don't feel like it was a certain type that got to me... it was actually more how I vibed with them that harmed me. Before I learned how to genuinely take care of myself I'd been harmed by the dynamics with a few different "types" of people. None of them would have the impact now, that they did then, because I am stronger and wiser with my boundaries, self respect, and my kindness toward myself. This is so good. I had my family over tonight. You'd never think (aside from one incident/topic which I stayed away from) we were a hugely dysfunctional family, then I realized, wait, maybe it's me? I hold a different energy now. So this really hit home today. But I guess I was also thinking about this with children/parents. When kids don't really know any better and they are harmed by parents who just don't want to be self-aware, do their work, take responsibility and heal their own wounds - they just kind of pass them right on down to their children. |
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Post by seeking on Jan 17, 2022 2:25:13 GMT
I think that all unaware, insecure (and other dysfunctional ) people are harmless harmers, (leaving out the harmful sadists out there) because the drive to self protect makes people selfish and less empathetic. So really, people go around inflicting harm in their ignorance and only see their side of things. But there is always another side they haven't considered. So many times, harm is also a matter of perspective (the recipient's), and what feels harmful to one person won't feel harmful to another- so I'm getting at there are harmful dynamics between two people to consider, not just 'one harms the other' situation, in most cases. Yes, makes sense, and I really like this perspective. However, I'm also thinking of children who grow up with these parents and end up with PTSD (relational trauma). Of course, then, we end up repeating patterns in adult relationships - until we don't. |
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Post by seeking on Jan 17, 2022 2:34:31 GMT
Soooo….I was thinking of someone with low empathy as well….however….narcissists do not need others to “regulate” them…they just feed off the adoration of others….it is called narcissist supply. People become a means by which someone with NPD gets validated in their own perspective of themselves. I went three rounds with an NPD…I don’t recommend it. The fact is that we are all capable of unintentional harm….and introvert is right that all unaware insecure can fall into that trap. Interesting. I see this in a number of ways. Classic narcissist who need adoration. But getting validation of their own perspective of themselves can be many things... (I think) By "regulation" I mean, it's like they don't seem to have there own steam to go on (life force energy, maybe?) - so they are almost like energy vampires. I think, alone, they would tend toward anxiety and depression. Most of the people like this who I'm thinking of really can't seem to be without a relationship or dependent in many ways on another (even if they won't admit that). Agree, we are all capable of unintentional harm. I think what I'm referring to and getting some clarity on is the type of person who is "toxic" but doesn't mean it to impact those around them- yet, it can, including the people around them ending up with C-PTSD. More of a chronic thing, then a one-off unintentional harm. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2022 2:40:29 GMT
I think that all unaware, insecure (and other dysfunctional ) people are harmless harmers, (leaving out the harmful sadists out there) because the drive to self protect makes people selfish and less empathetic. So really, people go around inflicting harm in their ignorance and only see their side of things. But there is always another side they haven't considered. So many times, harm is also a matter of perspective (the recipient's), and what feels harmful to one person won't feel harmful to another- so I'm getting at there are harmful dynamics between two people to consider, not just 'one harms the other' situation, in most cases. Yes, makes sense, and I really like this perspective. However, I'm also thinking of children who grow up with these parents and end up with PTSD (relational trauma). Of course, then, we end up repeating patterns in adult relationships - until we don't. Right, there is a distinction between peer-to-peer relationships and parent-child relationships, of course. But I'd also say that most parents harm unintentionally, and even get triggered by their own kids. So yeah it's a mess to be human but it's more helpful to be really dialed in on our own dynamics than to try to figure out others. I guess it all goes together but focusing on how I harm myself in dynamics has been the key for me. |
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Post by seeking on Jan 17, 2022 3:29:00 GMT
spaghetti - that's a lot to chew on! I'm going to keep reading this. I never heard of discouraged bpd, but looking it up and reading about it now. Lots coming together.. thanks so much for what you wrote
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 17, 2022 3:48:37 GMT
Soooo….I was thinking of someone with low empathy as well….however….narcissists do not need others to “regulate” them…they just feed off the adoration of others….it is called narcissist supply. People become a means by which someone with NPD gets validated in their own perspective of themselves. I went three rounds with an NPD…I don’t recommend it. The fact is that we are all capable of unintentional harm….and introvert is right that all unaware insecure can fall into that trap. Interesting. I see this in a number of ways. Classic narcissist who need adoration. But getting validation of their own perspective of themselves can be many things... (I think) By "regulation" I mean, it's like they don't seem to have there own steam to go on (life force energy, maybe?) - so they are almost like energy vampires. I think, alone, they would tend toward anxiety and depression. Most of the people like this who I'm thinking of really can't seem to be without a relationship or dependent in many ways on another (even if they won't admit that). Agree, we are all capable of unintentional harm. I think what I'm referring to and getting some clarity on is the type of person who is "toxic" but doesn't mean it to impact those around them- yet, it can, including the people around them ending up with C-PTSD. More of a chronic thing, then a one-off unintentional harm. Actually, narcissists are not prone to depression or anxiety because they have a rather high perspective of themselves….so I don’t think you are speaking about them. Do they drain others? Yes…but it is in part due to the other person’s inability to put an appropriate boundary up. NPDs are typically charming so they tend to not have as much issues with finding people to adore them. After 2 relationships with NPDs…I just stay away from them. |
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