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Post by seeking on Jul 12, 2022 11:12:16 GMT
I have a friend who I'm pretty regularly triggered by lately.
I took for granted she was a friend and finally healing and coming out of functional freeze, I started to feel like there was a weird "slightly icky" dynamic. Nothing major, she was always VERY friendly and kind, but almost in a way that is not genuine? I started to wonder if she was fawning with me. She can be a very private person. She used to come to me for advice. And now, not sure what switched. I can say things and she completely ignores me. Like we have similar situations in a certain regard, and I'll tell her something I did that really helped, and she won't say "Oh, what was it? Tell me more" kind of thing.
Somehow it feels the connection shifted - either because it did or I just came more into awareness that something about it was a little fake (not in a major, overt way).
I know she kept inviting me to her house, and I kept not being able to go. For a year, I was so tired I really couldn't give up a Sunday or find the energy to go and I think that might have upset her. I actually recently apologized to her for it. She wanted me to come over to check something out about her house, and it just felt like "another thing to do." (It wasn't just like hey let's hang out for no reason).
Our girls have a kind of on-again/off-again thing. For being so young her daughter is very avoidant. She flits around like a little fairy and if she's not in the mood for you that day, she will not give you much attention.
Anyway, I had to confront her one time over something in a mutual group of ours. I created this thing and she was pulling everything in another direction. I guess now that I'm writing this, I realized things changed back then. She says things that are like little hints. Like a couple months ago at a party, she told me - sort of out of nowhere - I'm realizing just how sensitive I am as a person.
Like what do you do with that? It was like she just kind of dropped that ... and looking back it felt like it was some passive comment like maybe I hurt her?
We're not good friends enough that I could say, "Hey did something happen?" And my avoidant tendencies don't want to ask that level of intimate question.
And she would never really say anything to me or open up like that.
So right now it's feeling bad. A lot of our communication if not in person is done via messenger - and a lot of times she give me the dreaded "thumbs up." I honestly hate the thumbs up, lol.
anyway, since it is what it is, I notice how much I tend to obsess over it. It's like this thing that "sticks" to me that I can literally stay up in the middle of the night and think about. I think because of the energy of it is VERY reminiscent of my sister. And even my mother. It's painful. But it also seems silly to avoid someone for imaginary reasons - it's just that now every interaction strikes me as rejection and feels like it kicks up the same wounds.
Is there a way to work with this/heal this? Avoiding this person so it's not uncomfortable doesn't seem to be it. Or maybe it is!
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Post by seeking on Jul 13, 2022 19:14:25 GMT
I figured out the trigger.
This is like always playing out at the back of my mind, but it goes back to my sister (or maybe even my whole family).
But it's clear there's been a rupture. And there is no attempt at repair. Almost as if I'm not worth it (I make that up) or my anxious parts tell me "they don't care enough."
Like it doesn't matter if I just fall off.... it's not worth fighting for.
And me being the one who fights for it gets old. So I also back down.
So with my friend, I could say, "Hey, I was noticing we .." (Actually, I do get stuck here and don't know what I would say!) but you get the idea. Except that feels WAY too vulnerable esp if someone truly doesn't care.
I just texted my sister something to answer her question (about my daughter - her daughters were asking). So I wrote in a little detail about myself and she gave me a one-word answer. I said something else and she said "Yeah."
So that's it. I'm not going to be like "Hey, I think there's something between us." A) she'd probably never own up to it because she's very avoidant -- or, worse, make it like it's just me (which makes me feel gaslit). B) blame me (it wouldn't be her "fault" - if it were, she'd be seeking me out).
Same with my friend, I get a lot of "thumbs up" emojis but not a lot of words. And I just have a hunch if I were to say something, she'd be all "What? No. Nothing is wrong." And then I would look like the crazy/needy/sensitive one.
So instead what I do is usually just trust my own intuition/instincts. Rather than be minimized or dismissed.. ...
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Post by alexandra on Jul 13, 2022 20:19:54 GMT
There probably is a rupture, but why did you jump to the assumption she doesn't care? Yes, it sounds like it may have festered too long due to the lack of communication, and of course it's only fixable with mutual effort. So if she's unwilling, you can't do anything about it. But it's telling yourself the most negative story about yourself to decide it's because she didn't care about you or the friendship. It's far more likely that she has poor conflict resolution and communication skills, and she had no idea how to maturely handle whatever happened. Or maybe she thought she made a passive comment and that should have been enough, even though no one would have noticed it without mindreading. Remember that avoidants don't necessarily see relationships and conflict as "worth fighting for." Because fighting for anything isn't in their repertoire, it's not how they view relationships and they don't necessarily see putting in the kind of effort you want as fighting for something anyway.
Frame it instead as, you want a friend who has the ability to communicate with you directly when there's an issue. And now that you see your friend lacks that ability, do you reevaluate the friendship and let it go? Can you depersonalize it?
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2022 0:46:09 GMT
Thanks, Alexandra. That's really helpful.
How do avoidants see it then? I'm definitely projecting my own anxious style on them. If I think about it, I'm guessing there is some de-activation? Like things got less "easy" and so it's "i'm out of here?"
Yes, it's helpful to notice the pain cycle this brings up. And the other options.
I'm not so much jumping to the assumption, but extracting it from a context --
Some series of events--
went to her house
complimented her on it (in messenger)
apologized for never coming over when she'd invited me a number of times.
(genuinely couldn't)
had a few exchanges about emails for our group that she never got.
re-sent them.
she acknowledged them. then said "we'll catch up more on messenger to see how you are" (she knew I was going through a lot/tired/prob getting a lyme dx)
she never did
had another exchange on messenger where i told her how hard I tried to do something to make it possible for her to stay in our group and but that it was like giving me PTSD to keep doing it (basically looking for a location and I've done it so much in other realms, I couldn't anymore). Meanwhile she contributes nothing to that - although she did offer her place, but it's not super realistic. so I guess that counts.
she said "sorry you have ptsd" or something like that.
then i said a few things like "I wish it could be like this . . . " and we have this happening right now - things she could have related to or commented on easily "Yeah, I know, same here."
But I got a thumbs up.
But if there is conversation in our messenger group chat she's very chatty. the minute someone initiates an event, instead of waiting to see if it's okay with the group leader (me and someone else) she says "Yes, we'll be there."
So all that to say, yes, I'm still kind of jumping to assumptions and do not want to do that.
But there is some context where I just sense a shift in energy as I see her in a lot of different contexts, and when it comes to me it's very "thumbs up" don't initiate convo, etc. but she can do that in other realms.
It's just a little upsetting to me how inordinately sad I get over the loss. And I think my feeling like -- if she were sad over the loss, it would show, I would sense it, she'd be more engaging (like I am) then she cared. But she doesn't.
It seems like that's my story with the end of most relationships - even boyfriends. I'm the one grieving, sad, distraught for a while, upset about it and the other person can just seemingly move on and be fine. So maybe that's another bit of a trigger here.
But in the end, yeah, gosh. It would be SO refreshing--healing, even--to have someone come to me and say "Hey, I thought maybe something was going on." Or make some effort...
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Post by introvert on Jul 14, 2022 2:09:04 GMT
Avoidants (DA) tend more to just adjust themselves rather than try to get an adjustment from or with another person. Think: shrink So say there is a friend dynamic that doesn't feel good to me. Something makes me uncomfortable, I'll back away from it rather than bring it up in hopes of resolving something. Why? Because self-regulation is the most automatic response. It's natural like breathing. Relationships and doing what may be needed to maintain them is NOT the standard setting. The social connection is not a strong impulses There is a natural, unconscious assumption that people cannot or will not make me comfortable. It's purely an inside job to be comfortable. So if that means insulation, it means insulation rather than asking someone to be less hot or less cold or whatever. Meaning, I won't be saying "You did this and I'm uncomfortable, here's what I want or need, etc." I have very low expectations for people and that doesn't mean I will hang out with someone acting a fool. It means I have a comfort zone and if you aren't a natural fit I'll be Over There. We observe and experience, feel comfortable or uncomfortable, then make adjustments in ourselves alone to maintain a comfort zone. If i notice that someone is higher need or more interactive they will automatically be a little farther away from me in my world (my choice) because I recognize that we don't thrive on the same things. That's it. We don't thrive together AS IS and so I leave it over there and that's that. It's a LOT less mental activity than an anxious person might assume. For me at least. We decide our way out of discomfort... make the adjustment and then let the concern slip away. But then we maintain the boundary. And no, I wouldn't really want to discuss it. Because like alexandra said, it's just not real natural to put a bunch of emotional effort into what we feel just isn't a good fit. Good or bad, I'm then iok with the relationship that's within space I maintain for it, and I don't need to get into a conflict about it. And thats what discussion often feels like, to an UNAWARE avoidant at least... it feels like a conflict or power struggle or a tangle of sOmEtHiNg that I don't have a clear intention for. My romantic relationship is quite different from this- there we have a long term commitment and it's continual investment. But overall, especially unaware avoidants are just not real relationship oriented in general and will self regulate their way through discomfort. Without a word in many cases. |
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Post by introvert on Jul 14, 2022 4:07:28 GMT
Also, since you confronted her in a mutual group, she might not trust you. I have no idea if you confronted her privately or publicly, but if she felt embarrassed by you then she might not feel any need to repair but rather to protect herself. Just guessing there as I have no idea how that went down. And then to hear you say you have PTSD connected to something involving her, well if it were me knowing something for or about a need of mine triggered PTSD for someone, I'd feel uncomfortable and just keep my distance. That is probably connected to being blamed for a lot throughout my life, being the person that was the problem.
Avoidants are consciously more afraid of attack than they are of abandonment. Criticism brings shame, which they may or may not have a conscious awareness of. That's why I use the word uncomfortable because before I knew about shame or how to identify my feelings I'd classify my feelings as uncomfortable or uncomfortable, general categories.
So I'm not saying you attacked her. It would be if she FELT attacked in some way. Just like if an AP feels abandoned they have not necessarily been abandoned. They are triggered into a feeling of abandonment. Avoidants can get pretty touchy about feeling attacked. Then the reaction is to withdraw not because it's "easy" but out of self preservation and finding a place that feels safer, better. Repair isn't a desire after feeling attacked. Distance is.
We just operate in the opposite direction. We aren't looking to co-regulate or get regulated by someone else. We do that inside ourselves.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2022 14:25:30 GMT
Also, since you confronted her in a mutual group, she might not trust you. I have no idea if you confronted her privately or publicly, but if she felt embarrassed by you then she might not feel any need to repair but rather to protect herself. Just guessing there as I have no idea how that went down. And then to hear you say you have PTSD connected to something involving her, well if it were me knowing something for or about a need of mine triggered PTSD for someone, I'd feel uncomfortable and just keep my distance. That is probably connected to being blamed for a lot throughout my life, being the person that was the problem. Thanks for the info. I will respond more later, but just for the record, that's not really how things went. My confronting her was in person, her only, and it felt like a huge move in the right direction for me. I could have said nothing and let resentment build, but I chose a high road. If after that, she decided that wasn't cool, that's fine. But I don't know exactly when her de-activating (or whatever we're calling it) took place or why. Instead of being direct with her a second time another thing happened, I told her that our search for the right location for our group was "giving me ptsd" - it was a passive statement - not even aggressive. But what I really wanted to say is. "I made every attempt to use all of my time finding the right place so that you can continue to be a part of our group but its become impossible and it's trigger what I went through when I had to look for housing for myself (which she knows about)." I felt like saying "Since you're the one who needs these certain requirements, maybe you can go do all that work of finding a place?" But she won't do that. She's a married mom that doesn't work and she has a lot of time on her hands. I do not. There was no appreciation toward me. No offer to help in that regard (real help not just saying something to sound good). And yet, she continues to benefit from the group I created that she initially complained about (we did it in a different style and using a different philosophy then she wanted) and doesn't contribute to. So when someone is like "Hey, we're having a party at my place." She's right there. But when it comes to doing all the logistics involved in keeping this group alive and continuing in the fall, nothing. And not only that, but I'm seemingly not even her friend anymore. So it's hurtful and extremely irritating. Maybe I didn't say it well the first time. But it's pretty common for me to feel like I'm doing all the work and people who generally have it easier to begin with benefit. And while I don't want credit, necessarily, even just a common acknowledgement or the courtesy of if something is bothering you, please be forthright over passively withdrawing from connection. |
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Post by introvert on Jul 14, 2022 14:36:06 GMT
Also, since you confronted her in a mutual group, she might not trust you. I have no idea if you confronted her privately or publicly, but if she felt embarrassed by you then she might not feel any need to repair but rather to protect herself. Just guessing there as I have no idea how that went down. And then to hear you say you have PTSD connected to something involving her, well if it were me knowing something for or about a need of mine triggered PTSD for someone, I'd feel uncomfortable and just keep my distance. That is probably connected to being blamed for a lot throughout my life, being the person that was the problem. Thanks for the info. I will respond more later, but just for the record, that's not really how things went. My confronting her was in person, her only, and it felt like a huge move in the right direction for me. I could have said nothing and let resentment build, but I chose a high road. If after that, she decided that wasn't cool, that's fine. But I don't know exactly when her de-activating (or whatever we're calling it) took place or why. Instead of being direct with her a second time another thing happened, I told her that our search for the right location for our group was "giving me ptsd" - it was a passive statement - not even aggressive. But what I really wanted to say is. "I made every attempt to use all of my time finding the right place so that you can continue to be a part of our group but its become impossible and it's trigger what I went through when I had to look for housing for myself (which she knows about)." I felt like saying "Since you're the one who needs these certain requirements, maybe you can go do all that work of finding a place?" But she won't do that. She's a married mom that doesn't work and she has a lot of time on her hands. I do not. There was no appreciation toward me. No offer to help in that regard (real help not just saying something to sound good). And yet, she continues to benefit from the group I created that she initially complained about (we did it in a different style and using a different philosophy then she wanted) and doesn't contribute to. So when someone is like "Hey, we're having a party at my place." She's right there. But when it comes to doing all the logistics involved in keeping this group alive and continuing in the fall, nothing. And not only that, but I'm seemingly not even her friend anymore. So it's hurtful and extremely irritating. Maybe I didn't say it well the first time. But it's pretty common for me to feel like I'm doing all the work and people who generally have it easier to begin with benefit. And while I don't want credit, necessarily, even just a common acknowledgement or the courtesy of if something is bothering you, please be forthright over passively withdrawing from connection. Right, and that last sentence is a reasonable ask. So that's ultimately why I agree with alexandra , in that you may be dealing with a person fundamentally incapable at this point, of meeting the expectation for a healthy connection and it's not about you. The thing is that this triggers your original family wound, of not being cared about right? And we pick people who trigger us until we don't. That's the process of healing you're in , from my perspective. Outgrowing old patterns yourself. Just offering feedback, support here. |
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Post by introvert on Jul 14, 2022 14:43:02 GMT
You had asked How do avoidants see it, I just offered some potentials .
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Post by introvert on Jul 14, 2022 14:54:52 GMT
Also- I know you didn't "pick" her but she's the trigger... the entitled unavailable person to your helping, more anxious element. It's just your historical dynamic is what it looks like.
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2022 15:32:55 GMT
You had asked How do avoidants see it, I just offered some potentials . Yes, I understand. I just thought it was helpful to be more clear about the specifics, even though I'm still being a bit vague because - internet! But I was going to come back to some of your other points, just had a meeting.... Thanks for everything! |
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Post by introvert on Jul 14, 2022 15:42:20 GMT
You had asked How do avoidants see it, I just offered some potentials . Yes, I understand. I just thought it was helpful to be more clear about the specifics, even though I'm still being a bit vague because - internet! But I was going to come back to some of your other points, just had a meeting.... Thanks for everything! You bet! And even if the confrontation happened in private, if she felt embarrassed or attacked (her perception) and she's not into trying to maintain a connection (avoidants aren't) then she's going to do what unavailable people do. And it hurts someone who wants a connection. I love the old standby phrase: "We wanted different things." So simple, so pure. |
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2022 22:34:01 GMT
Also- I know you didn't "pick" her but she's the trigger... the entitled unavailable person to your helping, more anxious element. It's just your historical dynamic is what it looks like. That's what it feels like. I have avoidant parts too. Parts that are really unsure. In the early days of knowing her, I was more the avoidant one, her seeking. I always had this "Why is this person seeking me out?" feeling. I didn't get it. She came on strong and shared a lot of really intimate stuff and wanted me to help her with her daughter, almost out of desperation - and jumped in and did, just because that's who I am. But it was really odd. And I always had this weird like "what are we?" sense. I'd see her in the grocery store and smile. Or I'd see her out while I was walking my dog. But I really always thought she and her family were a little odd. They are! Not in a bad way, but just really off the beaten path. My kid was in school, her kid un-schooled. And we just had different paths. Then I started homeschooling and re-connected with her in a much different way. But she was always non-committal. I learned that the hard way - "hey, I'll be at the playground at 3." "Oh, maybe if we're by there we'll see you." She wouldn't let her daughter come into our house b/c of her sensitivities, so it was awkward. We had to be friends on their terms. I tried relating to her with stuff with my own daughter that was similar. But we were always way more resilient, present, "there," then her and her daughter. So we met regularly for a long time with another group and it was nice. And settled into a nice rhythm. But then things changed - group changed, move location, more people. And she had her protest (about how things were done, even though she didn't want to help) - that's when I confronted her and gave her a role so she can do her thing. I thought I was being pretty gracious. And since then (late spring), our dynamic has slowly shifted. I guess I have more "consistent" parts that are like "here's the rhythm" and kind of comes to expect that and gets pretty dysregulated when things start to shift and I have no clear reason. That's my own relational trauma - so trying to go with the flow more. |
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Post by seeking on Jul 14, 2022 22:36:31 GMT
Yes, I understand. I just thought it was helpful to be more clear about the specifics, even though I'm still being a bit vague because - internet! But I was going to come back to some of your other points, just had a meeting.... Thanks for everything! You bet! And even if the confrontation happened in private, if she felt embarrassed or attacked (her perception) and she's not into trying to maintain a connection (avoidants aren't) then she's going to do what unavailable people do. And it hurts someone who wants a connection. I love the old standby phrase: "We wanted different things." So simple, so pure. And of all people to contact me today. A group of friends was meeting near my house. They didn't let me know? (I guess they figured I was working, etc). And she reached out. That went a long way for me. We didn't even get to talk since I could only be there for 30 minutes or so and ended up needing to chat with someone there about something more pressing, but as we were leaving, I talked to her about something light and it felt nice -- But man it is so so tough on me when I feel like "somethings wrong" with a connection, again I know it's trauma based, but it's such an immense "all is right in the world" that I really don't consciously think about -- more that it's automatic. I guess welcome to anxious attachment, geez! |
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Post by usernametaken on Jul 14, 2022 23:52:37 GMT
I could be wrong, but I am sensing some resentment here. As others have pointed out this may not be the friendship for you, but also, it is on each of us to determine how much we have to give and then set boundaries around that. It is tricky because we often don't realize when we are overstepping our own boundaries but it may be helpful to ask yourself "if I get nothing back from this, am I still happy with giving?" It does not make you a bad or selfish person to communicate something is past your bandwidth and then ask for someone else to do it if it needs to get done. If things don't get done or friends fade away as a result, well then that is a great indication of how solid that relationship is. It can be a bit of a balancing act as well. Maybe you give at first, but if you notice a trend of not getting anything back, well then you start to balance your needs with what you are getting out of it.
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